Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

Greeter,

I'm shocked, what do you mean stay out of it? USAPA is supposed to be representing me in the process. Are you suggesting they're not? That would explain the USAPA updates I keep receiving that talk about the West pilot's in third party reference. It's like I'm getting updates on how we're going to screw the west. Wait a second.........I'm a west pilot!

Bean

These morons have been clueless since their founding of the scab union.

They had to rewrite their C&BL when it was pointed out that the first priority of most airline pilot unions is the promotion of safety (number 5) for them well below number 1, do anything to screw the West and rewrite the seniority list by promoting uniform principle of seniority BS.

Then for 5 years they post updates that talk about a third of their own constituency in the third person.

And now, the president puts out an update that spells out the exact position of the union, commit DFR against the West class at all cost before we dissolve from merger.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Greeter,

I'm shocked, what do you mean stay out of it? USAPA is supposed to be representing me in the process. Are you suggesting they're not? That would explain the USAPA updates I keep receiving that talk about the West pilot's in third party reference. It's like I'm getting updates on how we're going to screw the west. Wait a second.........I'm a west pilot!

Bean

[font=Arial']Kind of like the F/As not checking on the cockpit. You have to wonder. Of course USAPA will represent you. But you look like a fools for not providing input, other than "the NIC is it." Stomp your feet and hold your breath. The SLI is going to happen with or without your participation (and your absence is publically noted.) You are at a crossroads. Continue to go for the NIC, or settle down and join the new process, the one you voted on. That’s all, nothing nefarious.[/font]

[font=Arial']Greeter [/font]

 

[Beancounter]

[font=Arial']Kind of like the F/As not checking on the cockpit. You have to wonder. Of course USAPA will represent you. But you look like a fools for not providing input, other than "the NIC is it." Stomp your feet and hold your breath. The SLI is going to happen with or without your participation (and your absence is publically noted.) You are at a crossroads. Continue to go for the NIC, or settle down and join the new process, the one you voted on. That’s all, nothing nefarious.[/font]

[font=Arial']Greeter [/font]

Stomping my feet? Wasn't it the east that threatened to burn down the airline after the Nic came out & DOH was nowhere to be found?

Absence noted? You've got to be joking. All USAPA wants to hear is DOH. It's that same all or nothing attitude that got us into this mess in the first place.

Bean

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Stomping my feet? Wasn't it the east that threatened to burn down the airline after the Nic came out & DOH was nowhere to be found?

Absence noted? You've got to be joking.

Bean

Your own Reps turned down two qualified and electable (the fix was in) West pilots for the Merger Committee, in favor of "nobody." I have to wonder. All or nothing, all the time? Read: AOL or nothing. Did Cactus Dave fill you in on that?

Greeter

 

[Beancounter]

These morons have been clueless since their founding of the scab union.

They had to rewrite their C&BL when it was pointed out that the first priority of most airline pilot unions is the promotion of safety (number 5) for them well below number 1, do anything to screw the West and rewrite the seniority list by promoting uniform principle of seniority BS.

Then for 5 years they post updates that talk about a third of their own constituency in the third person.

And now, the president puts out an update that spells out the exact position of the union, commit DFR against the West class at all cost before we dissolve from merger.

I think one of the reasons the company didn't want to touch this with a ten foot pole, was the unions blatant disregard for a DFR. They've pumped out so much bloody evidence that when it's ripe it 's an easy win.

Bean

 

[Keroseneuser]

Somebody asked if they were lied to about the MOU being seniority neutral.

By the way it is written I would say no. The MOU says 'lists" and "list' to differenciate between USAPA and APA. In that sense it is neutral, they provide the 2 active usair lists in the apa merger. Neither side gets what they have been fighting over all these years, no NIC and no DOH. I bet that will be the seniority neutral part of it.

The MOU also goes out of its way to make all that came before null and void, including the awa/US T/A and status quo. Again this appears to be very carefully laid out by the company. It was made sure that the pilots voted on this MOU, and we all can be reasonably sure nothing was going to happen on the merger until it was passed by a wide margin...by ALL pilots, east and west. that way nobody can say they did'nt know about it or did not have a voice in the process.

When you read the MOU and focus on the specific wording of it, it pretty much wipes out the east west battle, neither side got what they have been fighting over all these years. No DOH, No NIC.

After watching Doug all these years I think he came up with a way to end the issue and cover all bases. On day of POR there ceases to be any shred of a AWA or USAir contract left. It is AA greenbook and MOU. We got a 78% yes vote on all the above. I don't think the courts are going to touch it personally. We go into this merger with 3 lists and whatever comes out of it is what we have.

USAPA I figure is in the clear because we all voted on it and that can be argued that the only possible way that there could ever be a contract for this pilot group was a complete redo while merging with APA.(Could be the LUP everybody is yelling about) The court cases to date will back up that claim, referring back to the statements "It is unlikely USAPA could ever get anything passed with NIC" etc. AOL will sue but by that time we are a couple more years down the road and USAPA is gone, now it goes to APA who is 3 times removed from the NIC by unions and a decade or more.

I think a court will look at this and say "They all got a hefty raise, they all got retirement, they all got bonuses, they all voted in favor if it, the west had representation on the BPR that negotiated and approved the MOU to go out for a vote, the west voted 98% in favor of it, and USAPA did not alter either seniority list prior to presenting them to APA for the 3 way integration." Additionally they can say that even AOL's legal team recommended passing and adopting the MOU.

I think when it does have it's day in court at some future date, the court is going to basically look at it and say "WTF are you bothering us with this for?"

Now if USAPA does something stupid and presents a combined awa/US DOH list to APA then the west would have some traction......I don't think that is going to be the case. I think we are all going into this merger by how we appear on the 3 active lists on the day of the POR.

 

[Beancounter]

Somebody asked if they were lied to about the MOU being seniority neutral.

By the way it is written I would say no. The MOU says 'lists" and "list' to differenciate between USAPA and APA. In that sense it is neutral, they provide the 2 active usair lists in the apa merger. Neither side gets what they have been fighting over all these years, no NIC and no DOH. I bet that will be the seniority neutral part of it.

The MOU also goes out of its way to make all that came before null and void, including the awa/US T/A and status quo. Again this appears to be very carefully laid out by the company. It was made sure that the pilots voted on this MOU, and we all can be reasonably sure nothing was going to happen on the merger until it was passed by a wide margin...by ALL pilots, east and west. that way nobody can say they did'nt know about it or did not have a voice in the process.

When you read the MOU and focus on the specific wording of it, it pretty much wipes out the east west battle, neither side got what they have been fighting over all these years. No DOH, No NIC.

After watching Doug all these years I think he came up with a way to end the issue and cover all bases. On day of POR there ceases to be any shred of a AWA or USAir contract left. It is AA greenbook and MOU. We got a 78% yes vote on all the above. I don't think the courts are going to touch it personally. We go into this merger with 3 lists and whatever comes out of it is what we have.

USAPA I figure is in the clear because we all voted on it and that can be argued that the only possible way that there could ever be a contract for this pilot group was a complete redo while merging with APA.(Could be the LUP everybody is yelling about) The court cases to date will back up that claim, referring back to the statements "It is unlikely USAPA could ever get anything passed with NIC" etc. AOL will sue but by that time we are a couple more years down the road and USAPA is gone, now it goes to APA who is 3 times removed from the NIC by unions and a decade or more.

I think a court will look at this and say "They all got a hefty raise, they all got retirement, they all got bonuses, they all voted in favor if it, the west had representation on the BPR that negotiated and approved the MOU to go out for a vote, the west voted 98% in favor of it, and USAPA did not alter either seniority list prior to presenting them to APA for the 3 way integration." Additionally they can say that even AOL's legal team recommended passing and adopting the MOU.

I think when it does have it's day in court at some future date, the court is going to basically look at it and say "WTF are you bothering us with this for?"

Now if USAPA does something stupid and presents a combined awa/US DOH list to APA then the west would have some traction......I don't think that is going to be the case. I think we are all going into this merger by how we appear on the 3 active lists on the day of the POR.

You've got some good points in there. As for USAPA, have they done stupid things in the past? I believe they have already pretty much said they're going to hand a DOH list over. If instead they hand the APA two lists and then argue for DOH it's going to be just as bad.

Bean

 

[nevergiveup]

You've got some good points in there. As for USAPA, have they done stupid things in the past? I believe they have already pretty much said they're going to hand a DOH list over. If instead they hand the APA two lists and then argue for DOH it's going to be just as bad.

Bean

I think doh will be the starting point for USAPA, but then it will change during negotiations.

 

[PullUp]

Nope...wrong..the West guaranteed the Nic by ratification of the MOU.

See Greeter, the MOU covers the process for integrating the LCC pilots with the AMR pilots. There are not three companies here, remember AWA bought USAirways in 2005 to form LCC?

The LCC pilots only have one accepted system seniority list.

Oh, BTW, your timeline is also incorrect. We do not have to wait for the POR to sue. Have you not read the uscaba presidents ridiculous update, we are suing now.

The first item is "consideration". This is a term used in contract law to describe the give and take of a contractural relationship. When you buy a car, the dealer relinquishes the ownership of the vehicle to you in return for a consideration, usually cash and/or a trade-in.
Consideration does not have to be positive, it can be negative. Let's hope those days are behind us all. Anyway, without consideration, there is no contract. One party is always willing to accept the other parties offers and vice versa in the give and take of a normal contract.
The way the T/A is worded, new contractural terms encompassing both east and west pilots was the consideration required in order for the company to reap the benefits of integrating the two seniority lists. No consideration ($$ and contract), no integrated list and no mixing of pilots and aircraft.
This approach has been overwhelmingly voted out by the adoption of new methodology in the form of the MOU that defines a new seniority integration process to merge the existing USAirways pilot forces (plural, just like the term 'lists') with AA's. There will no longer be a defined path to a SLI between east and west when the MOU becomes effective.
Why didn't the NAC and BPR (as well as the company) define how seniority between east and west would be handled within the new MOU agreement. Because it is an impossible task, and everyone knows it. It hasn't been done yet, and never will. Time is of the essence, the merger needs to be done, so a new methodology was invented that all but 2% or 24 west pilots approved in a recorded vote.
MOU's are common, they are not contracts but merely agreements (with no consideration to make them contracts) so to greatly speed the process of forming a contract when the time arrives. (Ripe yet? Nope.)
There is only one list accepted by the company as the bargaining position for section 29 of a combined east-west contract. It was accepted because it met the requirements of the T/A. However, on the effective date, that T/A gets supplanted by the MOU/MTA and is no longer in force. So, the list, which lives as a proposal for S29 only because of the T/A, will cease to exist when the T/A is supplanted.
The MOU/MTA has very specific language spelling out the new seniority integration process and also orders that the existing lists in effect (what we are living with today - 2 lists) will not be changed except by the defined process of negotiation and arbitration defined in the MOU.
To recap, there is no consideration with the MOU until the effective date, thus it is not a contract at this time. When it DOES become a contract (because the new payrates and terms is the consideration) , it changes how the seniority lists (3 now) will be integrated in tightly defined terms which do not allow the existing lists to be changed. The MOU supplants the existing T/A and underlying contracts and LOAs on the effective date. All this was agreed to in a voluntary vote which passed almost unanamously.
I don't see where AOL has standing or a case for that matter.
Cheers.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']The West Class is regrouping. The solemn news hit hard. Will it still be only that we are all scabs, morons, and don't keep our word? Or will they finally realize you cannot, for any reason, ethic, or situation, put a new hire ahead of a 17 year pilot? Had that single item been addressed at Wye River, USAPA probably would not even be here. But it was NIC or nothing, and now it is just….nothing.[/font][/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']What does Cactus Dave say. Still SYIC?[/font][/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']The facts, logic and timeline of the MOU process are overwhelming. The NIC is so dead it cannot even rise again in a DFR.[/font][/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']Greeter[/font][/font][/font][/font]

 

[traderjake]

Or will they finally realize you cannot, for any reason, ethic, or situation, put a new hire ahead of a 17 year pilot?

Says the guy who wants to put a Reserve F/O ahead of Captain on the same airplane.

It ain't going to happen.

 

[cleardirect]

The first item is "consideration". This is a term used in contract law to describe the give and take of a contractural relationship. When you buy a car, the dealer relinquishes the ownership of the vehicle to you in return for a consideration, usually cash and/or a trade-in.
Consideration does not have to be positive, it can be negative. Let's hope those days are behind us all. Anyway, without consideration, there is no contract. One party is always willing to accept the other parties offers and vice versa in the give and take of a normal contract.
The way the T/A is worded, new contractural terms encompassing both east and west pilots was the consideration required in order for the company to reap the benefits of integrating the two seniority lists. No consideration ($$ and contract), no integrated list and no mixing of pilots and aircraft.
This approach has been overwhelmingly voted out by the adoption of new methodology in the form of the MOU that defines a new seniority integration process to merge the existing USAirways pilot forces (plural, just like the term 'lists') with AA's. There will no longer be a defined path to a SLI between east and west when the MOU becomes effective.
Why didn't the NAC and BPR (as well as the company) define how seniority between east and west would be handled within the new MOU agreement. Because it is an impossible task, and everyone knows it. It hasn't been done yet, and never will. Time is of the essence, the merger needs to be done, so a new methodology was invented that all but 2% or 24 west pilots approved in a recorded vote.
MOU's are common, they are not contracts but merely agreements (with no consideration to make them contracts) so to greatly speed the process of forming a contract when the time arrives. (Ripe yet? Nope.)
There is only one list accepted by the company as the bargaining position for section 29 of a combined east-west contract. It was accepted because it met the requirements of the T/A. However, on the effective date, that T/A gets supplanted by the MOU/MTA and is no longer in force. So, the list, which lives as a proposal for S29 only because of the T/A, will cease to exist when the T/A is supplanted.
The MOU/MTA has very specific language spelling out the new seniority integration process and also orders that the existing lists in effect (what we are living with today - 2 lists) will not be changed except by the defined process of negotiation and arbitration defined in the MOU.
To recap, there is no consideration with the MOU until the effective date, thus it is not a contract at this time. When it DOES become a contract (because the new payrates and terms is the consideration) , it changes how the seniority lists (3 now) will be integrated in tightly defined terms which do not allow the existing lists to be changed. The MOU supplants the existing T/A and underlying contracts and LOAs on the effective date. All this was agreed to in a voluntary vote which passed almost unanamously.
I don't see where AOL has standing or a case for that matter.
Cheers.

This theory all "sounds" good. Except the union has a responsibility to explain the term of the MOU/ consideration. Seniority has been the elephant in the room for 7 years it is not like usapa can tell the court oh we did not think it was important. If the MOU really did change the seniority between east and west usapa had a responsibility to inform the membership.

usapa ran many, many road shows and explained all aspects of the MOU. Scope, pay, insurance everything else. Seniority was specifically asked and the answer was seniority neutral. That this MOU does not touch seniority.

Now if as you think the MOU does change seniority and usapa lied to the membership intentionally. That right there is a DFR since usapa knew there would be litigation. The company knew there would be litigation why would they allow an MOU to change seniority without at being very clear about what the MOU did? The APA knows the score here. In thier last update thay said they do not want to INHERIT this mess. Why would they go along with language that would kill the Nicolau knowing that the APA is also a party to the MOU and eventually will inherit the law suit if the Nicoalu is not used?

Merger committee update 1/23/2013

There is nothing in the MOU that would benefit an East or West pilot that does or does not want the Nicolau Award.

If the MOU kills the Nicolau that would be a huge benefit for the east and harm for the west. did the merger committee lie?

NAC update 1/25/2013

The MOU is completely neutral with respect to the Nicolau Award.

Your theory says the MOU kills the Nicolau. The official word from the union is the MOU is neutral on seniority. Did the union misrepresent what the MOU does? Did the union lie to the pilots in order to benefit the east pilots?

This is great evidence that the union did not fairly represent the west pilots if the MOU does kill an arbitration. BTW you can try and tell the court well their lawyer said it was OK. There is no responsibility for the west to even have a lawyer to protect our rights FROM the union. The union is supposed to do that for us. That is what we pay dues for.

So if usapa failed to inform the membership that the arbitrated list was killed with this MOU they had a duty to inform the membership. Instead usapa repeatedly told the membership that this MOU did not change the seniority method between east and west. Clear DFR violation. Unions are not suppose to play got you with contracts. Under your theory theory usapa is a scum bag organization that lies to it's members.

The language in the MOU concerning seniority is about merging US Airways pilots and american pilots. It does not address merging east and west pilots. Do you think maybe it was intentionally written that way to get the east to vote for it? You guys have the majority why not just come out an say this kills the Nicolau, the east can outvote the west and puts a end to all of this. Why not be open and transparent about what this MOU does for the single biggest problem?

IF you truly believe that the MOU kills the Nicolau and somehow usapa fooled the west. You are going to be very disappointed.

 

[cleardirect]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']The West Class is regrouping. The solemn news hit hard. Will it still be only that we are all scabs, morons, and don't keep our word? Or will they finally realize you cannot, for any reason, ethic, or situation, put a new hire ahead of a 17 year pilot? Had that single item been addressed at Wye River, USAPA probably would not even be here. But it was NIC or nothing, and now it is just….nothing.[/font][/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']What does Cactus Dave say. Still SYIC?[/font][/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']The facts, logic and timeline of the MOU process are overwhelming. The NIC is so dead it cannot even rise again in a DFR.[/font][/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']Greeter[/font][/font][/font][/font]

How much seniority did that 17 years pilot have? Was he a captain? Was he an F/O? How many pilots did that 17 years guy have below him? Was he holding a line or sitting reserve?

What was that 17 years guys SENIORITY?

How many furloughed american pilots would you allow to be senior to active US Airways pilots? How much seniority does a furloughed amercian pilot have?

 

[snapthis]

This theory all "sounds" good. Except the union has a responsibility to explain the term of the MOU/ consideration. Seniority has been the elephant in the room for 7 years it is not like usapa can tell the court oh we did not think it was important. If the MOU really did change the seniority between east and west usapa had a responsibility to inform the membership.

usapa ran many, many road shows and explained all aspects of the MOU. Scope, pay, insurance everything else. Seniority was specifically asked and the answer was seniority neutral. That this MOU does not touch seniority.

Now if as you think the MOU does change seniority and usapa lied to the membership intentionally. That right there is a DFR since usapa knew there would be litigation. The company knew there would be litigation why would they allow an MOU to change seniority without at being very clear about what the MOU did? The APA knows the score here. In thier last update thay said they do not want to INHERIT this mess. Why would they go along with language that would kill the Nicolau knowing that the APA is also a party to the MOU and eventually will inherit the law suit if the Nicoalu is not used?

Merger committee update 1/23/2013



If the MOU kills the Nicolau that would be a huge benefit for the east and harm for the west. did the merger committee lie?

NAC update 1/25/2013



Your theory says the MOU kills the Nicolau. The official word from the union is the MOU is neutral on seniority. Did the union misrepresent what the MOU does? Did the union lie to the pilots in order to benefit the east pilots?

This is great evidence that the union did not fairly represent the west pilots if the MOU does kill an arbitration. BTW you can try and tell the court well their lawyer said it was OK. There is no responsibility for the west to even have a lawyer to protect our rights FROM the union. The union is supposed to do that for us. That is what we pay dues for.

So if usapa failed to inform the membership that the arbitrated list was killed with this MOU they had a duty to inform the membership. Instead usapa repeatedly told the membership that this MOU did not change the seniority method between east and west. Clear DFr violation. Unions are not suppose to play got you with contracts. Under your theory theory usapa is a scum bag organization that lies to it's members.

The language in the MOU concering seniority is about merging US Airways pilots and american pilots. It does not adddress mergering east and west pilots. Do you think maybe it was intentionally written that way to get the east to vote for it? You guys have the majority why not just come out an say this kills the Nicolau, the east can outvote the west and puts a end to all of this. Why not be open and trasperant about what this MOU does for the single biggest problem?

IF you truely believe that the MOU kills the Nicolau and somehow usapa fooled the west. You are going to be very disappointed.

It is possible an Agent of Leonidas was in Charlotte. It is also possible recordings were made in CLT and PHX during the MOU presentations. It is likely what the pilots heard in CLT was quite different than in PHX.

I'd bet there is a good chance Marty has some surprises for the other side in the near future.

Duh

 

[cleardirect]

It is possible an Agent of Leonidas was in Charlotte. It is also possible recordings were made in CLT and PHX during the MOU presentations. It is likely what the pilots heard in CLT was quite different than in PHX.

I'd bet there is a good chance Marty has some surprises for the other side in the near future.

Duh

It is very likely. Also likely would be witnesses to all the road shows and what was said.

If different "facts" were presented at different bases. Ooooo. I hope the guys that holds a law license has another skill. Allowing an intentional violation of duty. Ouch! Officers of the union allowing a clear violation of duty. Telling pilots one thing in the privacy of a union meeting while publishing a different opinion.