Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

I asked a few days ago to play arbitrator and how would you handle the bottom of the list between US Airways and American. Not a single one of you would take up the challenge.

So for just for entertainment sake I am interested in finding out how you east pilots think a three way would go.

You are all convinced that the MOU allows a three way M/B so how do you see that playing out? How would any of you see the top of the list, the junior captains and the bottom of the list go together?

Just your opinion. Pretend you are the arbitrator and you have to create a fair list for all 15,000 new American pilots.

 

[snapthis]

It is very likely. Also likely would be witnesses to all the road shows and what was said.

If different "facts" were presented at different bases. Ooooo. I hope the guys that holds a law license has another skill. Allowing an intentional violation of duty. Ouch! Officers of the union allowing a clear violation of duty. Telling pilots one thing in the privacy of a union meeting while publishing a different opinion.

I hear they have an outstanding happy hour.

http://www.dcbar.org/

 

[PullUp]

This theory all "sounds" good. Except the union has a responsibility to explain the term of the MOU/ consideration. .. If the MOU really did change the seniority between east and west usapa had a responsibility to inform the membership.

usapa ran many, many road shows and explained all aspects of the MOU. Scope, pay, insurance everything else. Seniority was specifically asked and the answer was seniority neutral. That this MOU does not touch seniority.

Now if as you think the MOU does change seniority and usapa lied to the membership intentionally. ...Your theory says the MOU kills the Nicolau. The official word from the union is the MOU is neutral on seniority. Did the union misrepresent what the MOU does? Did the union lie to the pilots in order to benefit the east pilots?...This is great evidence that the union did not fairly represent the west pilots if the MOU does kill an arbitration. ...So if usapa failed to inform the membership that the arbitrated list was killed with this MOU they had a duty to inform the membership. Instead usapa repeatedly told the membership that this MOU did not change the seniority method between east and west. Clear DFR violation...The language in the MOU concerning seniority is about merging US Airways pilots and american pilots. It does not address merging east and west pilots...Why not be open and transparent about what this MOU does for the single biggest problem?...IF you truly believe that the MOU kills the Nicolau and somehow usapa fooled the west. You are going to be very disappointed.

The MOU is seniority neutral: it doesn't change anything as it currently exists. Two lists, east and west.
However, I cannot account for your lack of reading comprehension skills. You had ample time to read and understand, ask questions, seek outside council, etc. If you didn't understand it, I'm sorry for you on many levels.
You are correct, the MOU does not address merging east and west pilots. Finally, you get that much.
What you need to understand is that a merge between east and west will never happen because of the elephant in the room.
So, we (as a collective: company, east, west, AA, creditors, investors) are moving on and the MOU spells out how we are abandoning the past and moving into a new future. The stalemate will be over and declared dead. Time to merge our two LCC lists with AA's list and become members of the largest airline in the world. Oh, the prestige!
You voted for it. You are getting due consideration in the form of higher pay, greater job security, and more job opportunities. You can't whine now.
Cheers.

 

[cleardirect]

The MOU is seniority neutral: it doesn't change anything as it currently exists. Two lists, east and west.
However, I cannot account for your lack of reading comprehension skills. You had ample time to read and understand, ask questions, seek outside council, etc. If you didn't understand it, I'm sorry for you on many levels.
You are correct, the MOU does not address merging east and west pilots. Finally, you get that much.
What you need to understand is that a merge between east and west will never happen because of the elephant in the room.
So, we (as a collective: company, east, west, AA, creditors, investors) are moving on and the MOU spells out how we are abandoning the past and moving into a new future. The stalemate will be over and declared dead. Time to merge our two LCC lists with AA's list and become members of the largest airline in the world. Oh, the prestige!
You voted for it. You are getting due consideration in the form of higher pay, greater job security, and more job opportunities. You can't whine now.
Cheers.

Simply ignoring the facts is not a defense.

We did read the MOU. we did ask question, we did read the updates from usapa. All answers were this MOU does not change or effect seniority.Am I supposed to take the union at it's word or assume that it is lying to me? If the method in the MOU is not addressed that means it is not changed. Meaning that the current method arbitrated list is still the method of integrating east and west.

If as you say the stalemate is over post a combined seniority list. Post the court ruling that states the latest law suit has been dismissed.

you to are getting greater compensation and due consideration. The deal was once that happened the east and west would be combined using the arbitrated list. You don't get the greater pay and a redo on seniority.

 

[PullUp]

Simply ignoring the facts is not a defense.

We did read the MOU. we did ask question, we did read the updates from usapa. All answers were this MOU does not change or effect seniority.Am I supposed to take the union at it's word or assume that it is lying to me? If the method in the MOU is not addressed that means it is not changed. Meaning that the current method arbitrated list is still the method of integrating east and west.

If as you say the stalemate is over post a combined seniority list. Post the court ruling that states the latest law suit has been dismissed.

you to are getting greater compensation and due consideration. The deal was once that happened the east and west would be combined using the arbitrated list. You don't get the greater pay and a redo on seniority.

Yes, yes, yes! You are understanding a little bit now. The current method has not changed, but it will die with the implementation of the MOU. You all voted to scuttle the current T/A in favor of the new MOU/MTA. There is no way to implement the NIC list (or any other) because there is no consideration (contract, $$) that is required to merge the east and west workgroups, per the T/A.
Once the T/A is gone, everything in the past is done, moot, kaput, trashed, gone, poof! We will be ruled by the MOU/MTA terms (that y'all voted for).
How can you even hope to implement the nic under these conditions? There is no combined list in effect here, never was, and under the terms of the MOU, cannot ever happen. The only way to a combined list is a three way through the negotiation/MB arb process.
The pay difference you point out has no bearing on the MOU.....you voted for it. BTW, the east has been getting less pay for how long?
Don't want to hear about your 'problem' with the east getting a bigger pay raise. We'll all be making the same soon.
Cheers.

 

[nevergiveup]

Simply ignoring the facts is not a defense.

We did read the MOU. we did ask question, we did read the updates from usapa. All answers were this MOU does not change or effect seniority.Am I supposed to take the union at it's word or assume that it is lying to me? If the method in the MOU is not addressed that means it is not changed. Meaning that the current method arbitrated list is still the method of integrating east and west.

If as you say the stalemate is over post a combined seniority list. Post the court ruling that states the latest law suit has been dismissed.

you to are getting greater compensation and due consideration. The deal was once that happened the east and west would be combined using the arbitrated list. You don't get the greater pay and a redo on seniority.

and to this date, the nic has not changed or had an effect on seniority. It's status quo going into arbitration, according to the MOU. No one is getting greater pay as we speak. We are still under the same contracts, per the MOU. When you stood up at the road show and asked the question, "Does this implement the NIC?" what was their answer. Or did you even bother to ask?

 

[Keroseneuser]

For the question of "what about the arbitration by NIC?"

Well from a strictly legal standpoint for that arbitration to have any weight, the terms of the t/a had to be met. That never occured, so a combined list never occured and the NIC list is not active or binding anywhere except in the current incomplete t/a, which has now been voted away by all pilots of usairways east and west. There is no way for the only process that could make the NIC binding to ever be completed. So from a straight how its written and agreed to POV like a court will look at, the NIC does not exist. Neither does a combined awa/us DOH list.

Many people can argue many things and take up court time and pay lawyer fees, but in the end, if it is not on an active and agreed upon contract in a court it does not exist. The next court case after the MOU takes effect will be dealing with the items contained in the MOU. Meaning AA's greenbook and the MOU documents. that is what the contract will be. The pilot group as a whole voted for that set of documents. The court will ask "what is the current active seniority lists?" He/she will be given 3 active lists by the company/apa/and USAPA. AOL will give him/her the NIC list. Some questions will follow and it will be disclosed that the process that created NIC was never completed and the pilot group/company/and apa all agreed to remove that contract completly that came before the greenbook/mou.

The simple fact is NIC was never completed per the t/a, NIC was never active and no pilot east or west ever bid on it. Additionally per our recent vote the entire process and contracts that created the NIC has been rendered null and void. When asked in roadshows the answer was always the same "seniority neutral" which it was since nothing in the mou affected the existing and active seniority lists in use. Amd the wording of the MOU could not be clearer about it. We all saw in plain black and white that the MOU meant complete removal and discarding of any and all contracts prior to the MOU.

The answer was not "seniority neutral concerning never completed and hypothetical unused seniority lists" The MOU states "lists' for USAPA and "list" for APA. Nothing about how that is written speaks to or endorses anything except the 3 active lists currently in use at the 2 airlines.

As long as during the AA merger process USAPA ensures that the west list is treated exactly like the east list when putting all this together I don't think a court will touch it. I don't think straight DOH is going to happen, my guess is some DOH/LOS/reletive position thing will come out of it based on where we sit on each list at date of POR with conditions and restrictions in place to prevent windfalls and leapfrogging. But I don't see any legal way given how we voted and how what we voted on is worded for there to be anything in that process that even mentions, references, or uses anything prior to the MOU. In that process, or in a court, contractually nothing before the MOU/greenbook will exist.

Thats my take on it anyhow. To see if I am correct in how I see it will be years down the road most likely when the inevitable court case finally makes its way through the system. In the mean time I am betting the above is how the company/apa/and USAPA are going to proceed. Each careful to not violate how any of the MOU is worded. And it is very specifically worded the way it is for a reason I suspect.

When the POR date hits, the MOU IS the only contract that apa/usapa/company will reference. There is nothing else after that date as clearly stated in what we voted in.

 

[cleardirect]

and to this date, the nic has not changed or had an effect on seniority. It's status quo going into arbitration, according to the MOU. No one is getting greater pay as we speak. We are still under the same contracts, per the MOU. When you stood up at the road show and asked the question, "Does this implement the NIC?" what was their answer. Or did you even bother to ask?

Yes the question was asked. The answer was the MOU is seniority neutral and does not address seniority. That also means that the MOU does not eliminate the Nicolau. No matter how hard you try to convince yourself.

 

[cleardirect]

For the question of "what about the arbitration by NIC?"

Well from a strictly legal standpoint for that arbitration to have any weight, the terms of the t/a had to be met. That never occured, so a combined list never occured and the NIC list is not active or binding anywhere except in the current incomplete t/a, which has now been voted away by all pilots of usairways east and west. There is no way for the only process that could make the NIC binding to ever be completed. So from a straight how its written and agreed to POV like a court will look at, the NIC does not exist. Neither does a combined awa/us DOH list.

Many people can argue many things and take up court time and pay lawyer fees, but in the end, if it is not on an active and agreed upon contract in a court it does not exist. The next court case after the MOU takes effect will be dealing with the items contained in the MOU. Meaning AA's greenbook and the MOU documents. that is what the contract will be. The pilot group as a whole voted for that set of documents. The court will ask "what is the current active seniority lists?" He/she will be given 3 active lists by the company/apa/and USAPA. AOL will give him/her the NIC list. Some questions will follow and it will be disclosed that the process that created NIC was never completed and the pilot group/company/and apa all agreed to remove that contract completly that came before the greenbook/mou.

The simple fact is NIC was never completed per the t/a, NIC was never active and no pilot east or west ever bid on it. Additionally per our recent vote the entire process and contracts that created the NIC has been rendered null and void. When asked in roadshows the answer was always the same "seniority neutral" which it was since nothing in the mou affected the existing and active seniority lists in use. Amd the wording of the MOU could not be clearer about it. We all saw in plain black and white that the MOU meant complete removal and discarding of any and all contracts prior to the MOU.

The answer was not "seniority neutral concerning never completed and hypothetical unused seniority lists" The MOU states "lists' for USAPA and "list" for APA. Nothing about how that is written speaks to or endorses anything except the 3 active lists currently in use at the 2 airlines.

As long as during the AA merger process USAPA ensures that the west list is treated exactly like the east list when putting all this together I don't think a court will touch it. I don't think straight DOH is going to happen, my guess is some DOH/LOS/reletive position thing will come out of it based on where we sit on each list at date of POR with conditions and restrictions in place to prevent windfalls and leapfrogging. But I don't see any legal way given how we voted and how what we voted on is worded for there to be anything in that process that even mentions, references, or uses anything prior to the MOU. In that process, or in a court, contractually nothing before the MOU/greenbook will exist.

Thats my take on it anyhow. To see if I am correct in how I see it will be years down the road most likely when the inevitable court case finally makes its way through the system. In the mean time I am betting the above is how the company/apa/and USAPA are going to proceed. Each careful to not violate how any of the MOU is worded. And it is very specifically worded the way it is for a reason I suspect.

When the POR date hits, the MOU IS the only contract that apa/usapa/company will reference. There is nothing else after that date as clearly stated in what we voted in.

For you east pilots that think this is going to be a three way integration a few questions about how usapa, the union that legally has to represent ALL US Airways pilots fairly and equally. How would you handle some of the milestones parts of the list?

How will usapa handle the west pilots that are on the east list? Are they east or west pilots? Will usapa give them their DOH order or allow new hires to be senior? Do those pilots have to make a choice even though they work for the same company? Do they get to stay on both lists and wait for the results before they decide?

Does usapa simply present two lists to the arbitrator and says put it together however you want? Does usapa hand over two lists and advocate for fair and equal treatment of both east and west pilots? Is DOH as required by the C&BL fair to all US Airways pilots? The courts have said an arbitrated list is fair.

First fact. The east and west work for the same company and therefore have the exact same expectations, benefits, pay and work rules.

If you believe that the east and west are separate lists the number one pilot on each list has the same expectation. To be number one on a combined list. When usapa hands in those two list will they continue to push for DOH? If so the east and APA pilot start at the top with our number one pilot hired in 1983 starting around 1000. Does that maintain his expectation of being number one? Does usapa fight for the west number one to be next to the east number and ignore DOH?

Since we are combined airline the west number one pilot now has an expectation to fly a WB. Does usapa try and fence a PHX based pilot from US Airways WB flying? How would they justify that if usapa is treating all pilots equally simply because that pilot is in a different base?

The next milestone is the junior captain. The junior captain is the junior captain.
APA 1/1993
West 7/1998
East 11/1987

Does usapa argue that the junior captains should be placed next to each other? Or does usapa argue that 500 east F/O should be senior to the APA junior captain while the west junior captain should be placed in the bottom 30% of the APA list below 5800 amercian pilots while almost 3000 east pilots are placed above American captains?

Finally at the bottom of the list. Where is the bottom of the east list and APA list?

We all agreed that the new hires should be junior to all premerger US Airways pilots (third listers). That means Varini is the bottom of the list and the new hires go below west pilots. That would be anyone hired after 2007. How does usapa get an arbitrator to do that?

What will usapa argue as far as the APA list? That furloughed pilot hired in 2001 get credit and go senior to all US Airways hired after them or do they argue that furloughed pilots go to the bottom? Does usapa allow the A/E flow through that are not on property or even furloughed to be on the mainline list? They have a 2008 hire date or earlier and there are 247 of those pilots. Bottom of the list or senior to active pilot?

Because of the way the TWA list was built they gave those guys a new DOH. At the bottom of the list for all of you demanding DOH.
1998 461 pilots
1999 1227 pilots
2000 1021 pilots
2001 2183 pilots.

That would be 4900 american pilot senior to any US Airways pilot hired after 2001. That would be 200 east pilots and 321 west pilots you want to throw under the bus. Plus another 325 east pilots hired between 1998-2001 mixed in with 4900 APA pilots. 525 east pilots mixed in with furloughed APA pilots and the bottom 45% of the American list. Does that sound like fair treatment of ALL US Airways pilots?

How does usapa argue that they can represent east and west fairly in a three way integration yet maintain their constitutionally mandated position? How does usapa represent east and west pilot’s career expectations of being number one or remaining as the junior captain or expecting to someday upgrade if usapa is placing the west number one pilots under 1000 other pilots. The junior west captain under 500 east F/O’s and 5500 and 6000 american pilots? How does usapa fairly represent junior US Airways pilots when they are willing to put 4900 american pilot senior to 50% of the west list hired in 1998 or later? Arguing that the junior west captain hired in 1998 should be junior to 70% of the American pilots?

Will usapa argue that the three lists should be put together having the three number one pilots next to each other?
APA DOH 3/73
West DOH 6/83
East DOH 1/73

Junior captain
APA 1/1993
West 7/1998
East 11/1987

Junior on the list.
APA Active 6/2001
West 2/2005
East 8/2004 or 9/2011

You guys are convinced that it will be a three way. How is usapa going to do a three way fairly? With all of those issues do you think maybe someone on one side or the other is not going to be happy? Perhaps see another MDA type DFR law suit for presenting the wrong list? M/B maybe federal law but the one thing that can overturn binding arbitration is fraud. If the wrongs list(s) are presented that would be fraud.

Does anyone think an arbitrator wants to deal with all of those issues?

Other option. Usapa presents the arbitrated list as agreed to. The arbitration panel only has two lists to deal with, they combine US Airways and American and everyone walks away without a lawsuit.

How is usapa going to represent ALL US Airways fairly in a three way integration? How would any of you handle these issues?

 

[Keroseneuser]

For you east pilots that think this is going to be a three way integration a few questions about how usapa, the union that legally has to represent ALL US Airways pilots fairly and equally. How would you handle some of the milestones parts of the list?

How will usapa handle the west pilots that are on the east list? Are they east or west pilots? Will usapa give them their DOH order or allow new hires to be senior? Do those pilots have to make a choice even though they work for the same company? Do they get to stay on both lists and wait for the results before they decide?

Does usapa simply present two lists to the arbitrator and says put it together however you want? Does usapa hand over two lists and advocate for fair and equal treatment of both east and west pilots? Is DOH as required by the C&BL fair to all US Airways pilots? The courts have said an arbitrated list is fair.

First fact. The east and west work for the same company and therefore have the exact same expectations, benefits, pay and work rules.

If you believe that the east and west are separate lists the number one pilot on each list has the same expectation. To be number one on a combined list. When usapa hands in those two list will they continue to push for DOH? If so the east and APA pilot start at the top with our number one pilot hired in 1983 starting around 1000. Does that maintain his expectation of being number one? Does usapa fight for the west number one to be next to the east number and ignore DOH?

Since we are combined airline the west number one pilot now has an expectation to fly a WB. Does usapa try and fence a PHX based pilot from US Airways WB flying? How would they justify that if usapa is treating all pilots equally simply because that pilot is in a different base?

The next milestone is the junior captain. The junior captain is the junior captain.
APA 1/1993
West 7/1998
East 11/1987

Does usapa argue that the junior captains should be placed next to each other? Or does usapa argue that 500 east F/O should be senior to the APA junior captain while the west junior captain should be placed in the bottom 30% of the APA list below 5800 amercian pilots while almost 3000 east pilots are placed above American captains?

Finally at the bottom of the list. Where is the bottom of the east list and APA list?

We all agreed that the new hires should be junior to all premerger US Airways pilots (third listers). That means Varini is the bottom of the list and the new hires go below west pilots. That would be anyone hired after 2007. How does usapa get an arbitrator to do that?

What will usapa argue as far as the APA list? That furloughed pilot hired in 2001 get credit and go senior to all US Airways hired after them or do they argue that furloughed pilots go to the bottom? Does usapa allow the A/E flow through that are not on property or even furloughed to be on the mainline list? They have a 2008 hire date or earlier and there are 247 of those pilots. Bottom of the list or senior to active pilot?

Because of the way the TWA list was built they gave those guys a new DOH. At the bottom of the list for all of you demanding DOH.
1998 461 pilots
1999 1227 pilots
2000 1021 pilots
2001 2183 pilots.

That would be 4900 american pilot senior to any US Airways pilot hired after 2001. That would be 200 east pilots and 321 west pilots you want to throw under the bus. Plus another 325 east pilots hired between 1998-2001 mixed in with 4900 APA pilots. 525 east pilots mixed in with furloughed APA pilots and the bottom 45% of the American list. Does that sound like fair treatment of ALL US Airways pilots?

How does usapa argue that they can represent east and west fairly in a three way integration yet maintain their constitutionally mandated position? How does usapa represent east and west pilot’s career expectations of being number one or remaining as the junior captain or expecting to someday upgrade if usapa is placing the west number one pilots under 1000 other pilots. The junior west captain under 500 east F/O’s and 5500 and 6000 american pilots? How does usapa fairly represent junior US Airways pilots when they are willing to put 4900 american pilot senior to 50% of the west list hired in 1998 or later? Arguing that the junior west captain hired in 1998 should be junior to 70% of the American pilots?

Will usapa argue that the three lists should be put together having the three number one pilots next to each other?
APA DOH 3/73
West DOH 6/83
East DOH 1/73

Junior captain
APA 1/1993
West 7/1998
East 11/1987

Junior on the list.
APA Active 6/2001
West 2/2005
East 8/2004 or 9/2011

You guys are convinced that it will be a three way. How is usapa going to do a three way fairly? With all of those issues do you think maybe someone on one side or the other is not going to be happy? Perhaps see another MDA type DFR law suit for presenting the wrong list? M/B maybe federal law but the one thing that can overturn binding arbitration is fraud. If the wrongs list(s) are presented that would be fraud.

Does anyone think an arbitrator wants to deal with all of those issues?

Other option. Usapa presents the arbitrated list as agreed to. The arbitration panel only has two lists to deal with, they combine US Airways and American and everyone walks away without a lawsuit.

How is usapa going to represent ALL US Airways fairly in a three way integration? How would any of you handle these issues?

Thats the thing, strictly speaking we do not work under the same pay work rules and expectations. We have NEVER been a merged company where the pilots are concerened. we have NEVER flown/bid or even touched the other sides equipment. The merger as far as the pilots are concerned never happened. At best we are two airlines operating under one corporate entity. Seperate work rules, seperate ops, seperate contracts, seperate pay rates. As it stands right now I have zero expectation of ever bidding PHX and you have zero expectation of ever bidding an east base. You might can claim an expectation based on the NIC but that has never existed at this company. Legally speaking it is a negotiation position for a non existant union in a soon to be non existant contract. In a court once the POR happens it appears that it will be like the wake data. People can try to reference it but legally it wont exist. The judge cannot place anything from that trial into a current proceeding.

Once the POR happens any and all arguments on both sides will have to be based on the AA greenbook and the MOU. Nothing else will exist then. the dates and data you tossed out there concerning how things were in 2005 will be irrelevant in the future proceedings. It never happened and we all voted to remove every shred of contract paper that even discusses it. The TWA people probably have a better chance at discussing their issues, they still have the greenbook in their contract. Nothing, absolutely nothing from any contract we ever had before is going to exist per our collective vote. Thats my take on it anyhow.

Oh and I think the current junior capt. on the east is a 2008 hire. The latest bid may have moved that to later than 2008, have not looked. granted that is on the 190 but when speaking of capt. positions it is the junior mainline captain. The current bid may include some of the west furloughees as captain now. I know they were getting close on the last bid I looked at.

 

[nevergiveup]

Yes the question was asked. The answer was the MOU is seniority neutral and does not address seniority. That also means that the MOU does not eliminate the Nicolau. No matter how hard you try to convince yourself.

I guess the section that favors the east is where any jcba does not change the lists currently in effect. So once there is a jcba, we still have two US Airways lists that do not change. Same names....same numbers. If the mou is a jcba as claimed by the west, then we are there now....no changes to the lists currently in effect. Perhaps binding arbitration might be better as it will allow all three sides to capture their own attrition. The Crandall tape was made for management's purposes, not ours.

 

[Phoenix]

Desperation can be measured by the volume of irrelevant information in lengthy posts that multiply in number.

The MOU did not stipulate USAPA begin using the NIC, and by the way neither did the 9th or judge Silver. The MOU was every bit seniority neutral as the courts have been. Gasp!

 

[cleardirect]

Thats the thing, strictly speaking we do not work under the same pay work rules and expectations. We have NEVER been a merged company where the pilots are concerened. we have NEVER flown/bid or even touched the other sides equipment. The merger as far as the pilots are concerned never happened. At best we are two airlines operating under one corporate entity. Seperate work rules, seperate ops, seperate contracts, seperate pay rates. As it stands right now I have zero expectation of ever bidding PHX and you have zero expectation of ever bidding an east base. You might can claim an expectation based on the NIC but that has never existed at this company. Legally speaking it is a negotiation position for a non existant union in a soon to be non existant contract. In a court once the POR happens it appears that it will be like the wake data. People can try to reference it but legally it wont exist. The judge cannot place anything from that trial into a current proceeding.

Once the POR happens any and all arguments on both sides will have to be based on the AA greenbook and the MOU. Nothing else will exist then. the dates and data you tossed out there concerning how things were in 2005 will be irrelevant in the future proceedings. It never happened and we all voted to remove every shred of contract paper that even discusses it. The TWA people probably have a better chance at discussing their issues, they still have the greenbook in their contract. Nothing, absolutely nothing from any contract we ever had before is going to exist per our collective vote. Thats my take on it anyhow.

Oh and I think the current junior capt. on the east is a 2008 hire. The latest bid may have moved that to later than 2008, have not looked. granted that is on the 190 but when speaking of capt. positions it is the junior mainline captain. The current bid may include some of the west furloughees as captain now. I know they were getting close on the last bid I looked at.

You guys really are frustrating to try and discuss anything. Constantly changing your position to meet your theories. I am talking about current facts. Not about a trial or the T/A but the new MOU. The MOU covers ALL US Airways pilots.

We have an MOU. We will soon have a JCBA. Both of those documents put us on the same work rules and pay rates. As of Feb 8 east and west are making the same pay rate. We will have a JCBA before SLI. Therefore the east and west pilots will have the exact same expectations. The T/A expected us to be able to bid other bases. The MOU expects us to be able to bid other bases. There was never an expectation to only bid PHX AFTER the merger.

The airline is merged. The only thing not merger is the two pilot groups. But as far as corporate entity we are one company with the same expectations.

Once we are on the green book east and west pilots have the exact same expectations. That means a west pilot can expect to fly in CLT or a WB. An east pilot can expect to bid PHX if he wants. If you believe there are two list than the number one west pilot can expect to be number on a combined list. usapa has the duty to argue for that.

The dates and data I presented are from the current seniority lists posted on wings and the latest AA seniority 2012. I used the date of the junior group II captain. Junior east captain 319 DCA C. Gannon. Junior west captain McIlvana 320. The 190 captain went very junior. Perhaps you think a 2008 hire 190 captain should be slotted in next to a 1993 MD 80 APA captain. Now that does not conform to your DOH or die attitude does it? If you think that because WB are a different class and deserve special treatment the 190's would also be cosidered a lesser airplane and would be put juniot to Group II aircraft.

I asked the question how would any of you ingetrate a three way list (using currnet data) to make that list fair to ALL US Airways pilots.

Any answer? How would you answer all of the issues I brought up?

 

[nevergiveup]

You guys really are frustrating to try and discuss anything. Constantly changing the facts to meet your theories. I am talking about current facts. Not about a trial or the T/A but the new MOU. The MOU covers ALL US Airways pilots.

We have an MOU. We will soon have a JCBA. Both of those documents put us on the same work rules and pay rates. As of Feb 8 east and west are making the same pay rate. We will have a JCBA before SLI. Therefore the east and west pilots will have the exact same expectations. The T/A expected us to be able to bid other bases. The MOU expects us to be able to bid other bases. There was never an expectation to only bid PHX AFTER the merger.

The airline is merged. The only thing not merger is the two pilot groups. But as far as corporate entity we are one company with the same expectations.

Once we are on the green book east and west pilots have the exact same expectations. That means a west pilot can expect to fly in CLT or a WB. An east pilot can expect to bid PHX if he wants. If you believe there are two list than the number one west pilot can expect to be number on a combined list. usapa has the duty to argue for that.

The dates and data I presented are from the current seniority lists posted on wings and the latest AA seniority 2012. I used the date of the junior group II captain. Junior east captain 319 DCA C. Gannon. Junior west captain McIlvana 320. The 190 captain went very junior. Perhaps you think a 2008 hire 190 captain should be slotted in next to a 1993 MD 80 APA captain. Now that does not conform to your DOH or die attitude does it? If you think that because WB are a different class and deserve special treatment the 190's would also be cosidered a lesser airplane and would be put juniot to Group II aircraft.

I asked the question how would any of you ingetrate a three way list (using currnet data) to make that list fair to ALL US Airways pilots.

Any answer? How would you answer all of the issues I brought up?

What's fair to one man can be deemed unfair to another. Arguing points is pointless! (I like that one....original!) I guess the only fair method is to fence off each base until everyone currently on all three the lists has retired. But I don't think that will happen. Fly your trip.....don't worry.....be happy!

 

[Keroseneuser]

You guys really are frustrating to try and discuss anything. Constantly changing the facts to meet your theories. I am talking about current facts. Not about a trial or the T/A but the new MOU. The MOU covers ALL US Airways pilots.

We have an MOU. We will soon have a JCBA. Both of those documents put us on the same work rules and pay rates. As of Feb 8 east and west are making the same pay rate. We will have a JCBA before SLI. Therefore the east and west pilots will have the exact same expectations. The T/A expected us to be able to bid other bases. The MOU expects us to be able to bid other bases. There was never an expectation to only bid PHX AFTER the merger.

The airline is merged. The only thing not merger is the two pilot groups. But as far as corporate entity we are one company with the same expectations.

Once we are on the green book east and west pilots have the exact same expectations. That means a west pilot can expect to fly in CLT or a WB. An east pilot can expect to bid PHX if he wants. If you believe there are two list than the number one west pilot can expect to be number on a combined list. usapa has the duty to argue for that.

The dates and data I presented are from the current seniority lists posted on wings and the latest AA seniority 2012. I used the date of the junior group II captain. Junior east captain 319 DCA C. Gannon. Junior west captain McIlvana 320. The 190 captain went very junior. Perhaps you think a 2008 hire 190 captain should be slotted in next to a 1993 MD 80 APA captain. Now that does not conform to your DOH or die attitude does it? If you think that because WB are a different class and deserve special treatment the 190's would also be cosidered a lesser airplane and would be put juniot to Group II aircraft.

I asked the question how would any of you ingetrate a three way list (using currnet data) to make that list fair to ALL US Airways pilots.

Any answer? How would you answer all of the issues I brought up?

thats where i see it differently. You keep asserting that this MOU constitutes a JCBA. I agree. But exactly .01 nanoseconds before this thing becomes a jcba it also voids any and all reference to anything prior to it. meaning the T/a that you are trying to base your expectations on wont exist. What will exist is the expectations that both you and i may someday be able to bid DFW flying a 777 after any fences/protections/hoops to jump through or whatever comes up in the AA sli is addressed.

To me our expectations currently are based on our 2 lists, nothing else has ever existed here nor will it ever exist now. Once we are indeed all working on the same pay and work rules, post MOU POR date we can then claim an expectation of something more. The way our current soon to be extinct t/a is written has prevented any and all attempts at merging these two pilot groups. The simple way it is written has ensured that. From reading the current MOU they learned from their previous mistakes. No such brick wall exists in this one. It clearly and in simple language voids, deletes, throws away, shreds( and any other "it never existed" language you want to apply), any and all contracts/agreements/tentative positions and status quo that we now have. We all voted on it.

If the judge asked you under oath what you thought the meaning of the wording is on the MOU you will have no better luck than USAPA did when trying to interpret the snap back issue. If it is not there in plain black and white, what you thought it meant is meaningless.

I think doug has wrapped up this mess all in the simple wording of the MOU. There is no room for intrepretation. it is pretty clear when it says everything prior to this is void.

As to how they put the 3 lists together and all the other issues? I have no idea what the end result will be, I just know it wont be based on any contract/document we now have other than the MOU/greenbook..