Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

More and more hot air. Irrelevant squared.....

The MOU doesn't stipulate that USAPA must start using the NIC. No court (legitimate court) has said USAPA must start using the Nic. Marty has spent a lot of money trying to get one to agree with him but he keeps getting them to say they are seniority neutral. Maybe they really mean it.

 

[Metroyet]

Just a thought on integrating three lists...what you have as of the POR (effective date) will be your bargaining chip. I don't know what criteria will ultimately be used for the integration, but whatever it is will be based on current data, not stuff from 2005.
Cheers.

Exactly, and the only legal "current data" was derived WITH YOUR EXPLICIT AGREEMENT via the Nic.

 

[PullUp]

If the APA really doesn't want to inherit this mess as they've indicated, They only have one choice. If they entertain a 3 way seniority protocol they will most certainly be sued at the earliest opportunity. Everybody but the East pilots knows there is only one legal path forward...using the NIc.

Oh no, the westies have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they will sue no matter what result is obtained for the integrated list.
Those guys love to sue - live to sue - can't wait to sue - anyone - anytime - anywhere.
If the westies got STAPLED TO THE TOP OF THE LIST, they would SUE.
Sheesh.

 

[PullUp]

OK. Fence each base.

CLT is a base. Fenced.
PHL is a base. Fenced.
DCA is a base. Fenced.
PHX is base. Fenced.

Is that what you are talking about? Whatever base you are right now is the base you will retire from.

We are all US airways pilots how in any way do you think that is fair or acceptable to the company or any pilot?

Sorry, although you are a LCC pilot, you live and work under a different contract that limits you to PHX. The east pilots live under a contract that limits their choices to DCA, CLT, and PHL.
Those are the fenceposts.
Cheers.

 

[PullUp]

If you want to consider 190's as captain you have to reduce the number of east captains by 1/3 and give the west credit for 190 captains that we should have. That arbitration is also hanging out there.

Sorry, that arb dies along with all the other contracts, LOAs, grievance decisions, etc on the effective date. You may no longer look to the past to resolve future conflicts.
What you got now is what you bring.
You voted for it.
Cheers.

 

[PullUp]

Exactly, and the only legal "current data" was derived WITH YOUR EXPLICIT AGREEMENT via the Nic.

Nope. Wrong. Nada.
The MOU says what?
The lists cannot be changed.
What are the lists it is referring to?
The east and west lists.
How can they be changed?
Only by the process defined in the MOU.
How can the NIC list sneak in there?
Can't do it according to the MOU.

 

[A320 Driver]

OK, I will play.

As the usapa negotiator answer the question I aksed earlier how you would negotiate three lists. How would you place the three number one pilots on the three lists? How would you place the three junior captains on a combined list.

What do you consider the bottom of the east list. Varini premerger or the new hire. What list should the west pilots flying east be on and where should they be in relation to the thrid listers?

What do you consider the bottom of the APA list? Active pilots? Furloughed pilots? A/E flow through pilots?

Make your argument for negotiating a combined list. Keep in mind that it has to be fair for ALL US Airways pilots and it has to be acceptable to the APA pilots.

Make your case.

A few posts back you made an interesting point that I don't quite understand. You said that the #1 West Captain's career expectations are to be #1 on the list and the same for the #1 East pilot. What has that got to do with career expectations? The #1 West captain has a career expectation to fly a 757 to Hawaii. The #1 East captain has a career expectation to fly a 330 to FRA. How do you figure the two are equal and should appear next to each other on a list if you are using career expectations as the measure? Just curious...

 

[PullUp]

A few posts back you made an interesting point that I don't quite understand. You said that the #1 West Captain's career expectations are to be #1 on the list and the same for the #1 East pilot. What has that got to do with career expectations? The #1 West captain has a career expectation to fly a 757 to Hawaii. The #1 East captain has a career expectation to fly a 330 to FRA. How do you figure the two are equal and should appear next to each other on a list if you are using career expectations as the measure? Just curious...

Aha! A very good point indeed!

 

[Claxon]

Just a thought on integrating three lists...what you have as of the POR (effective date) will be your bargaining chip. I don't know what criteria will ultimately be used for the integration, but whatever it is will be based on current data, not stuff from 2005.
Cheers.

Excellent arguments and facts Pullup. The Westoffs have been blown out of the water with their ridiculous JCBA theories. Too bad they are going to look like fools again when the legal wheels turn. MetroJudicata especially

 

[Phoenix]

If the APA really doesn't want to inherit this mess as they've indicated, They only have one choice. If they entertain a 3 way seniority protocol they will most certainly be sued at the earliest opportunity. Everybody but the East pilots knows there is only one legal path forward...using the NIc.

The APA telegraphs they want the East/West dispute settled and you have the nerve to threaten APA if THEY don't support YOUR desires? Ever since Wye River reasonable people have been calling on the West to engage in working out a resolution to the dispute, and reasonable people will continue calling for the West to participate in finding a solution. The DFR 2 will be so dead because the West class never once participated in any constructive and reasonable dialogue to benefit all the pilots of the union, dispite the multitude of opportunities provided by all three unions that AOL has been fighting (ALPA, USAPA, APA).

You can just be thankful that the unions will never act in indignation against you in the same manner that you praise Nicolau for supposedly doing.

Go to your room for a time out and think about what you are doing!

 

[Claxon]

Nope. Wrong. Nada.
The MOU says what?
The lists cannot be changed.
What are the lists it is referring to?
The east and west lists.
How can they be changed?
Only by the process defined in the MOU.
How can the NIC list sneak in there?
Can't do it according to the MOU.

Take that Metro. This guy is shredding your dreams.

 

[Claxon]

Sorry, that arb dies along with all the other contracts, LOAs, grievance decisions, etc on the effective date. You may no longer look to the past to resolve future conflicts.
What you got now is what you bring.
You voted for it.
Cheers.

Did he ever. Talk about self inflicted harm.....

 

[Claxon]

If the APA really doesn't want to inherit this mess as they've indicated, They only have one choice. If they entertain a 3 way seniority protocol they will most certainly be sued at the earliest opportunity. Everybody but the East pilots knows there is only one legal path forward...using the NIc.

Say it again you moron. It is fun watching your desperate self delusion. The best part is you voted the Nic away. Hilarious!

 

[cleardirect]

Sorry, although you are a LCC pilot, you live and work under a different contract that limits you to PHX. The east pilots live under a contract that limits their choices to DCA, CLT, and PHL.
Those are the fenceposts.
Cheers.

Stuck in the past or to ignorant to understand reality.

The MOU puts the east and west on equal pay. Eventually the exact same work rules, everything. Those differences go away. We are ALL US Airways pilots with the exact same rights.

Base fences between east and west not going to happen. Base fences between US Airways and american, not likely either.

 

[cleardirect]

A few posts back you made an interesting point that I don't quite understand. You said that the #1 West Captain's career expectations are to be #1 on the list and the same for the #1 East pilot. What has that got to do with career expectations? The #1 West captain has a career expectation to fly a 757 to Hawaii. The #1 East captain has a career expectation to fly a 330 to FRA. How do you figure the two are equal and should appear next to each other on a list if you are using career expectations as the measure? Just curious...

I think the Nicolau is the seniority list. Therefore the number one west pilot is starts down the combined list around 500. We are all US Airways pilots now. So the WB are not "exclusive" property of the east pilots they are US Airways airplanes. ALL benefits of the combined company are equally shared by ALL US Airways pilots east and west. that is what a merger does.

It is the east pilots that have the theory that there will be three lists. So as the number one pilot on the west list that works for US Airways he has the EXACT same expectation as the number one pilots on the east. So if the number one pilot flying out of PHL to FRA is flying a 330 two equal US Airways pilots the number one PHX based pilot also has that expectation. No one ever had an expectation going into (before the Nicolau) merger to have a 8-10-15 years base fence. That is just a consequence of east behavior.

You east guys want to change the rules, those are the rules if you want to play that way. The number one guy has an expectation of being number one at his company, US Airways. The junior captain has an expectation of remaining a junior captain as US Airways regardless of what base he is in. And a senior F/O expects to upgrade in a normal progression at his company and in the next merger.

So usapa if they are going to represent ALL US Airways pilots fairly have to make sure that happens. Using the Nicolau does that. Using three list risks a lot.

This is not a three way merger like I think some of you imagine. It is a merger between US Airways and american.