Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Wrong, please read the transition agreement and quit your whining......and read it soon because it is gone as of the effective date! (per your vote)

Simple question. If you had gotten DOH would we still be under separate ops?

No the east is the reason we are still separate. No other reason. At least accept the responsibility of your actions.

 

[traderjake]

Can two processes that use the same methodology come out different? One fair, one not?

Fairness is subjective, that's why we have arbitration.

Who's a better judge of fairness, someone who benefits or loses based on the outcome or a neutral, professionally trained arbiter?

 

[cleardirect]

Can two processes that use the same methodology come out different? One fair, one not?

If you recall, I am not call for DOH and I never thought our LOS proposal would work. One reason we made it was because it clearly showed how after years of stagnation the '86 and later hires would finally benefit from attrition. The merger saved that attrition, but gave a large chunk of it to west guys.

What is your definition of a large chunk? Nicolau gave you 2 out of every three upgrades. The west also brought attrition to. I think I have posted numbers that the shift in attrition is about 40 per year. I would not consider that a "large chunk".

Now if you want to talk about shifting. Let's talk about shifting a majority of the benefits of the new contract. The east takes 90%.

 

[Pi brat]

What is your definition of a large chunk? Nicolau gave you 2 out of every three upgrades. The west also brought attrition to. I think I have posted numbers that the shift in attrition is about 40 per year. I would not consider that a "large chunk".

Now if you want to talk about shifting. Let's talk about shifting a majority of the benefits of the new contract. The east takes 90%.

We should have all been on the same level playing ground when the merger closed. Then it would have been a cost of the merger like it is now.

Somewhere around 90% of the current west list would be in a position to hold 737 or greater captain on the east. W/B F/O. It's all right there for you to see, you just ignore it.

 

[traderjake]

I did not say that.

Especially not a decision based on "punishing" one side because he improperly told them they could not even have a certain position.

If you think he based his decision on "punishing" us what would you call that?

I call it being paraniod.

 

[Pi brat]

Fairness is subjective, that's why we have arbitration.

Who's a better judge of fairness, someone who benefits or loses based on the outcome or a neutral, professionally trained arbiter?

Jake, I understand your feeling about DOH, but for the life of me I cannot understand your argument about the fairness of the Nicolau award. Like most things in life it is not all wrong, but it provides potential windfalls for the senior east and junior west. The junior west move up and have vastly more opportunities than they would stand alone and they come at a cost to the east. It's just the way it is.

 

[A320 Driver]

Simple question. If you had gotten DOH would we still be under separate ops?

No the east is the reason we are still separate. No other reason. At least accept the responsibility of your actions.

I imagine that $120 million/year in additional pilot costs had more than a little to do with it. I never saw the company serious about the negotiations. Did you not read the negotiating points? Or does that clash with your claim that it is all USAPA's fault?

 

[traderjake]

Jake, I understand your feeling about DOH, but for the life of me I cannot understand your argument about the fairness of the Nicolau award.

My position is that the day after the merger you have the seniority to hold the job you could hold the day before the merger.

The East and West pilots who could hold the #1 A320 Captain position (not their actual position) before the merger should be next to each other on the new seniority list as should the pilots who could only hold bottom A320 Reserve First Officers from each company.

The day after the merger we work for a new company and we share the good and the bad going forward.

Nicolau award for the most part does that.

The USAir had no 767s, should those pilots have been fenced off those airplanes forever after the Piedmont merger?

My answer is no even though those pilots had no expectation of ever flying a 767.

 

[Ames]

Were not the top 500 spots given to the east to protect the widebodies and on top of that a fence as long as age 65 didn't pass?

Bean

Why bother giving these fools the facts. You could tell them that water is wet and they won't believe you. They only believe what they want to believe.

 

[Ames]

BLAA, blaa, blaa, blaa, blaa! All this bullshit because one very simple concept, DOH, has been screwed with, at this point, by untold numbers of dirtballs, trying to "get a leg up" on fellow pilots. We, all of us, have allowed this to happen and are ultimately responsible for the consequences. Hate, discontent, lack of unity as professionals and on and on. Has this served the pilot profession well? I think not.

It's time to fix this travesty. Everybody at both companies, LCC and AMR should go with "strict" DOH. Shuttle, Empire, TWA, Aircal, Reno, PSA, AAA, Piedmont (have I left anybody out?) should go back to their "original" DOH and a "seniority" list constructed accordingly, period.

Would some get a good deal? Would some get a great deal? Would some get a crap deal? Yes and most would just get an OK deal and move forward with a nice pay raise, better job security (too big to fail) and as good a "future" as anybody in the industry.

We (APA and USAPA) really should take this opportunity to just "keep it simple" and move on.


seajay

What a moron!

 

[Ames]

Seejay,

Great idea. I would ratify such a list, and accept the associated hits on my own future. But there is one greedy entity that would never, ever agree. That would be the "West Class." They will forever haunt us with litigation on a perverted list they will never obtain.

Greeter

Yet another moron.

 

[cleardirect]

They asked to staple 900 ACTIVE pilots.

DOH staples 1500 west pilots below east furloughed pilots.

 

[cleardirect]

We should have all been on the same level playing ground when the merger closed. Then it would have been a cost of the merger like it is now.

Somewhere around 90% of the current west list would be in a position to hold 737 or greater captain on the east. W/B F/O. It's all right there for you to see, you just ignore it.

And by DOH our captain would be lucky to hold a reserve line and the F/O's would not upgrade for years.

 

[cleardirect]

If you think he based his decision on "punishing" us what would you call that?

I call it being paraniod.

Where is the proof? If there was any evidence why was no law suit filed? When the ALPA BOD looked at the award they did not find any "punishment"

 

[cactusboy53]

On its deathbed.

Brilliant!! That explains the new airplanes, destinations, pilots, upgrades, & profits AWA had following our post 9/11 contract!! Boy were we ever lucky that we acquired US Air! Who knows where we would be! Maroon.