Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

N924PS
Posted 13 October 2005 - 06:08 PM




"lynyrdskynyrd, on Oct 13 2005, 04:03 PM, said:

Well I never had any of that stuff you gave up, and you want my captain seat to make up for it? I don't think so."



What makes it "your" seat? Are you already a Captain?

There are plenty of USairways F/o's with 18 years on the property that would tell you any new Captain vacancies opened by attrition of a USAirways pilot should be theirs.

 

[Pi brat]

n



N924PS
Posted 13 October 2005 - 07:29 PM



Bud8EE,

Two excellent posts that summarize what I believe to be the position the USAirways Merger Committee and its attorney, Dan Katz should take.

 

[Pi brat]

exB717Flyer
Posted 14 October 2005 - 05:40 PM

Veteran

• 
  

This is/was a merger.
Neither side is "saving" the other and even if they did we employees had nothing to do with it.
Both sides deserve better careers but that's irrelevant.
"Career Expectations" is a self-serving, subjective opinion. Only someone not affected can determine them.
ALPA merger policy is a fair process, come what may.
The worst-case scenario must be planned for: furloughs. I say the pain should be shared. What ratio? Talk amongst yourselves...

AWA FO
Ex-TWA

 

[traderjake]

NO WE DIDN'T!!!! We presented a case for our integration that was based on LOS.

Again, was Nicolau tasked with giving either side what the asked for or combining the list in a fair and equitable manner?

Maybe we said LOS not DOH, does it really matter?

The methodology Nicolau used used was fundamentally the same the same as the Delta Northwest and the Frontier Republic arbitrations, did those arbitrators get it wrong too?

 

[nevergiveup]

Why are we not merged? Because the east feels butt hurt and refused to live up to the agreement. Self hostage taking. Blaming the arbitrator for your actions.

Wrong, please read the transition agreement and quit your whining......and read it soon because it is gone as of the effective date! (per your vote)

 

[Pi brat]

aquagreen73s
Posted 18 October 2005 - 09:39 PM



Arbitration is the place to be. After that, no cryin from anyone. But above all else, get it out of the union's hands and put it in front of an arbitrator! The worst thing that could happen is some midnight, behind the door "agreement" brokered by ALPO. It would wreck the pilot group.

As for slotting, don't assume it would be one for one or tailed in such a way that the bottom flying UAir guy is paired with the bottom AWA guy. There will be some sort of slotting but consideration will be given to age and longevity as well. I expect the number one UAIR guy on furlough won't be much worse off than the bottom UAIR pilot flying. If he were markedly worse off solely because of his "furlough" status, then we're getting away from fairness and into pure arbitrariness in dictating peoples' lives and careers. The number one guy on furlough all of a sudden falls way behind the bottom flying guy, just ahead of him. Not cool. Make your arguments and let the chips fall where they may. It'll be a subjective, gut instinct decision on the part of the arbitrator, but that is just the way it is and is the best way for all.

 

[Pi brat]

Maybe we said LOS not DOH, does it really matter?

The methodology Nicolau used used was fundamentally the same the same as the Delta Northwest and the Frontier Republic arbitrations, did those arbitrators get it wrong too?

Can two processes that use the same methodology come out different? One fair, one not?

If you recall, I am not call for DOH and I never thought our LOS proposal would work. One reason we made it was because it clearly showed how after years of stagnation the '86 and later hires would finally benefit from attrition. The merger saved that attrition, but gave a large chunk of it to west guys.

 

[Pi brat]

N924PS
Posted 20 October 2005 - 02:34 AM




"traderjake, on Oct 19 2005, 02:34 PM, said:

I'm a First Officer who can't hold Captain at US. I'm 2000 out of 2700 active pilots. If it goes DOH I would be senior to all but the top 200 Captains at AWA.

That's a windfall."

[924PS said]
And your probably one of the 57% percent of the USAirways pilots that voted for LOA 93 too. Grow some cojones will you.

 

[traderjake]

The number one guy on furlough all of a sudden falls way behind the bottom flying guy, just ahead of him. Not cool.

West pilots get it wrong too, they asked for straight one to one East West slotting didn't they?

 

[Pi brat]

aquagreen73s
Posted 23 October 2005 - 09:29 PM




I think I understand what you are saying; should U Air have stayed in business, then this pilot would have retired in the top ten just based on attrition alone. But it's likely his or her seniority number would have been meaningless in the near future had the AWA merger not occured. Plus, it would be difficult to say he gets screwed in this given his long time left flying. Even if he were put at the absolute bottom (I doubt very seriously that will happen) but just for the sake of argument, if he did go to the bottom he'd still be a captain sooner because there would be U retirements plus the AWA retirements. In effect, he'd have the advantage of U+AWA pilots retiring, instead of just U pilot retirements. But I doubt the furloughees with 15 years of longevity will go to the bottom. My guess on the ultimate integration will be to integrate using a weighted longevity formula. Somebody with fifteen years at U that's now on the street is likely to integrate somewhere around senior AWA f/o or perhaps very junior captain. But that's just a guess.

 

[Pi brat]

West pilots get it wrong too, they asked for straight one to one East West slotting didn't they?

They asked to staple 900 ACTIVE pilots.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

More East paranoia, Nicolau was out to get us.

I did not say that. You are determined to prove somehow to this pilot group that the NIC award was proper and should be implemented. Take a look around at current events. Not going to happen.

I will do you a favor, and from here on out not respond, ever again, to one of your posts. Actually, that is for my own sanity.

Greeter

 

[cleardirect]

How about the 6 year gain in the west upgrades? The combined airline is smaller than the previous parts, how did the west gain that without it coming from the east? How about the widebody captains? How would you personally progress and at what relative position you would retire at vs. Nic? Mine was something like a 12000% change for the worse.

Typical. Changing your complaint when proven wrong.

The point was that the certain east pilots and not all lost at the most 2 years to upgrade. That is what your own numbers guy said. That is what that chart proves.

So the last 6 years wasted was because certain east pilots thought they got a bad deal.

 

[Pi brat]

If you guys don't know, Aqua is a big guy in AOL. I agreed with a lot of what he wrote. More from 2005:



"aquagreen73s
Posted 25 October 2005 - 05:58 PM


By DOH, do you mean the actual date a pilot showed up for newhire, or a pilot's actual longevity? It makes a huge difference because if you look at just the actual date hired, then many U pilots get a windfall in that all the time on furlough suddenly counts for seniority. And that is backwards because nobody's seniority list at any airline is based on anything other than longevity. But as long as the cryptic "DOH" is thrown around without more specificity, then I'm vehemetly against it. And I'd suspect the arbitrator would be very receptive to that argument.

Given my place, it won't make much of a difference whether there is a dovetail or longevity based integration. I suspect I'd end up right around the 90-91 hires. I'm a somewhat senior f/o by the way. "


I'm pretty sure he ended up slotted with '87 hires. But now that is fair by most westie standards.

 

[Pi brat]

Typical. Changing your complaint when proven wrong.

The point was that the certain east pilots and not all lost at the most 2 years to upgrade. That is what your own numbers guy said. That is what that chart proves.

So the last 6 years wasted was because certain east pilots thought they got a bad deal.

You are the one that changed it. I asked you had you read the report. You said yes and only took away the "2 year delay" argument when that was a small part of the whole thing. Integrity!