Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Cleardirect,

Somewhere you wrote that the only thing the East MEC report to the ALPA BOD showed was that the longest delay in east upgrade was two years. If that is your conclusion then you must have just read the AOL brochure and not the actual report. It showed much more than that, very clearly. It shows the west windfall. Try to read it again.

http://www.planebusi...ecusairways.pdf

The report from the east guy. Yes.

The chart on page 12-17. Impact of captaincy.

Auberry 1 year lost
Chrisos 2 years lost
Mann 2 years lost
Queen 1 year lost
Sage 2 years lost.

Looking through that list of EXPECTATION when an east pilot EXPECTED to upgrade and the horrifying devastation of his career compared to a merged Nicolau list. The most I saw on that list to upgrade to NB captain was 2 years.

Even at the very bottom of the list an east pilot just senior to O'Dell Zeigler was only going to have to wait 2 years to upgrade using the Nicolau. Wasted 6 years because you selfish east pilots could not wait 2 years at the most. Hope it was worth the $100,000 and your integrity.

Plus when the Nicolau is implemented it is going to be a long wait while the west pilots take our rightful place we have been held out of for the last 6 years.

 

[traderjake]

Common sense says you cannot put a 17 year guy behind a new hire.

Common sense says you can't put a Captain behind a Reserve First Officer on the same airplane.

 

[cleardirect]

Have you read the 2004 AWA annual report? That was not what he was saying.

Do you really think he did the merger out of charity?

Do you really think that absent the US merger you would be looking at merging with AA. Oh, that's right, you would be a Delta pilot right now like Ames said since that merger only fell through because of the old US pilots.

Man, there is some stupid stuff floating around on here.

Did the east MC submit the 2004 annual report to Nicolau? If it was such powerful evidence that it would have changed the entire list I guess your side messed up. Hey maybe you can go back to Nicolau and ask for a do over. Submit some more evidence and he will change his mind.

No absent the merger there would be no US Airways to merger with anyone. The airline would have been gone. With 6-10% of the market opened up by the demise of US Airways it is hard to say what would have happened after that.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

No we did not.

We ask him for DOH, period.

Even after he told us we weren't going to get it.

What's wrong with you today?

AAA did the same thing in the AAA/PI merger. And we were improperly told the same thing by the arbitrator, we were not going to get it.

We got DOH anyway. Not slotting.

Arbitration is NOT mediation. A mediator can try and guide the parties, work out solutions, etc. An arbitrator hears the case. It is suggested he was trying to "steer" the case, and that he held a preconceived position on matter, even before final arguments.

But in the end he failed miserably in his job. He should have been objective, seen through the haze and rendered a proper decision that upset everyone equally; not create a sham that provided windfalls to a select group. Especially not a decision based on "punishing" one side because he improperly told them they could not even have a certain position. What a flake.

Greeter

 

[cleardirect]

If Nicolau got it so wrong and ALPA merger policy was so wrong and the east MEC got it so wrong. Why didn't a group of smart east pilots get together and sue east ALPA and ALPA national or Nicolau instead of the west?

Why run away to a new union instead of standing up to what you had?

Guess it is easier to take your ball and go home like you did with JCBA.

 

[nevergiveup]

If Nicolau got it so wrong and ALPA merger policy was so wrong and the east MEC got it so wrong. Why didn't a group of smart east pilots get together and sue east ALPA and ALPA national or Nicolau instead of the west?

Why run away to a new union instead of standing up to what you had?

Guess it is easier to take your ball and go home like you did with JCBA.

If he got it so right, then why are we not merged? Guys, this is just a job. There is a lot more money that can be made if you want it. Just ask T. Woods or B. Madoff!

 

[Keroseneuser]

Thanks for the constructive response. Previous history has shown that West pilots had to form alliances whether it is AWAPPA, Leonidas or group unity in general to even have a voice.

USAPA has not given us that voice and we are now one pilot group, albeit per USAPA's website, therefore,we should expect to be at the table to see exaclty which seniority "proposal" is being used.

I think that is why APA, the company and USAPA worded the MOU the way it is worded. By specifically stating "lists" for USAPA and "list" for APA it resolves the representation problem. Since there is no basis in the RLA for AOL to be at the table and trying to create one would be problematic at best, I don't think Hummel has ever intended to present anything other than an AWA list and a USAir list and 3 way it.

It solves most of the legal problems USAPA might have from this and keep APA out of it entirely. Then when the expected lawsuits come USAPA will be a non entity by that time, APA cannot be held liable in anyway, the MOU wording that we voted on makes that possible, as does the company being off the hook.

No damages since it never happened, and no future liability since the MOU erases all agreements and proposals prior to the POR.

Some in USAPA are probably going to raise hell trying to get an integrated US DOH list tossed into the mix when talking to APA but I don't see USAPA sticking their schlong back on the table to be cut off when there appears to be a free pass in the MOU and this new merger to erase all this crap.

From a line pilot POV I don't think you will see many on the east #### about a 3 way scenario, and though i cannot speak for the west as a whole, the friends I know over there are not going to have any heartburn about it either. Most of us can see that the future as a new AA is too valuable to screw up dragging this abortion of a mess we have been dealing with for 7 years on any further.

My opinion is that we as line pilots on both sides seem to have a nice escape vector plotted out, it would be stupid to re-engage the fight when you are bingo fuel. Disengage and call it a draw and meet in the pub for a beer is I think where we are headed.

 

[traderjake]

Especially not a decision based on "punishing" one side because he improperly told them they could not even have a certain position. What a flake.

More East paranoia, Nicolau was out to get us.

 

[Pi brat]

No absent the merger there would be no US Airways to merger with anyone. The airline would have been gone. With 6-10% of the market opened up by the demise of US Airways it is hard to say what would have happened after that.

You don't know that. Bill Gates may have cleaned out his sock drawer...........

It's not hard to say what would have happened after that. Eastern went out of business and left a bigger void than that. The industry still struggled. I think Parker is in a better position to know that than you. Again, did AWA merge with US out of charity?

 

[cleardirect]

AAA did the same thing in the AAA/PI merger. And we were improperly told the same thing by the arbitrator, we were not going to get it.

We got DOH anyway. Not slotting.

Arbitration is NOT mediation. A mediator can try and guide the parties, work out solutions, etc. An arbitrator hears the case. It is suggested he was trying to "steer" the case, and that he held a preconceived position on matter, even before final arguments.

But in the end he failed miserably in his job. He should have been objective, seen through the haze and rendered a proper decision that upset everyone equally; not create a sham that provided windfalls to a select group. Especially not a decision based on "punishing" one side because he improperly told them they could not even have a certain position. What a flake.

Greeter

We did mediate. It got us nowhere.

But let's at least stick with the correct facts.

An arbitrator is not suppose to upset everyone equally he is suppose to find a solution that everyone can agree to. Once again the east with 180 degree view from reality.

Who suggested that Nicolau was trying to steer the case? Someone from the east that has a biased view of the award?

"he should have been objective" Another personal biased opinion. In his mind he was. No one has ever explained the reason why Nicolau was biased and not objective. I have head a lot of opinion based on him not doing what you wanted but no facts.

But the main point here. Nicolau did not tell the east they could have a position he told them he was not going to award that position big difference. The east could have and did stand on DOH/LOS right to the end. Nicolau never told the east they could not do that. He did tell them that was not going to turn our well of you if you did. The east did and you did not like the result.

Is that Nicolaus fault? A cop pulls you over and gives you a warning for speeding, tells you to slow down. You pull off and do 90 MPH. Is it the cops fault that you get a ticket? Did he forbid you from going 90MPH? Deal with your own decisions.

 

[cleardirect]

If he got it so right, then why are we not merged? Guys, this is just a job. There is a lot more money that can be made if you want it. Just ask T. Woods or B. Madoff!

Why are we not merged? Because the east feels butt hurt and refused to live up to the agreement. Self hostage taking. Blaming the arbitrator for your actions.

 

[Pi brat]

The report from the east guy. Yes.

The chart on page 12-17. Impact of captaincy.

Auberry 1 year lost
Chrisos 2 years lost
Mann 2 years lost
Queen 1 year lost
Sage 2 years lost.

Looking through that list of EXPECTATION when an east pilot EXPECTED to upgrade and the horrifying devastation of his career compared to a merged Nicolau list. The most I saw on that list to upgrade to NB captain was 2 years.

Even at the very bottom of the list an east pilot just senior to O'Dell Zeigler was only going to have to wait 2 years to upgrade using the Nicolau. Wasted 6 years because you selfish east pilots could not wait 2 years at the most. Hope it was worth the $100,000 and your integrity.

Plus when the Nicolau is implemented it is going to be a long wait while the west pilots take our rightful place we have been held out of for the last 6 years.

How about the 6 year gain in the west upgrades? The combined airline is smaller than the previous parts, how did the west gain that without it coming from the east? How about the widebody captains? How would you personally progress and at what relative position you would retire at vs. Nic? Mine was something like a 12000% change for the worse.

 

[Claxon]

Why are we not merged? Because the east feels butt hurt and refused to live up to the agreement. Self hostage taking. Blaming the arbitrator for your actions.

Mike Cleary prevented the seniority theft and killed the Nic. Masterful job.

 

[Pi brat]

No we did not.

We ask him for DOH, period.

Even after he told us we weren't going to get it.

What's wrong with you today?

NO WE DIDN'T!!!! We presented a case for our integration that was based on LOS. Even Ray Charles could see why and what that did. When told we wouldn't get our way they said they were comfortable with their position. So what? We couldn't come up with something we thought was fair before, why would Nicolau saying that change things. It was his job then.

Again, was Nicolau tasked with giving either side what the asked for or combining the list in a fair and equitable manner?

He didn't do it. If he had we wouldn't be here now.

DOH not being a good solution didn't and doesn't make the Nicolau fair. 924PS would get his second career windfall by jumping in front of every PHX based pilot. Is that fair? At least you have stayed consistent over the years, I'll give you that.



N924PS
Posted 13 October 2005 - 05:13 PM




"traderjake, on Oct 13 2005, 03:06 PM, said:

So because we're old and worked for a poorly run stagnant company we deserve go to the top of the list.

What a ridiculous argument."





[924PS]


Date of Hire is Unity and Unity is Date of Hire.

And yes we do deserve to go to the top of the list. We paid for it with our pensions, work rules, vacation, sick leave, quality of life.

The Parker/Lakefield dream would never have been a possible without the sacrifices of the USAirways employees.

We bring lots of flying and lots of retirements to the merger. Who should benefit from the USAirways atrrition? Certainly the USAirways pilots, including the furloughees.

 

[Pi brat]

Why are we not merged? Because the east feels butt hurt and refused to live up to the agreement. Self hostage taking. Blaming the arbitrator for your actions.

Wrong. Your butt hurt blaming of others. The TA called for separate ops until a JCBA. That's the core reason we are not merged.

Stop whining, will you? You guys say the case is ripe, we have a JCBA so it's about over. Plus I think someone said you're about to get you damages. Be happy.