Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Yeah, sure, whatever you say.

And Nicolau got it wrong because your relative position is different today compared to the day of the merger.

I imagine I know J better than you, so I can confidently say that I got it right.

That is one of the reasons Nicolau got it wrong. I don't get you either. Why are you so blinded by it? Your Dad's deal with US/PI?

Did you ever get around to reading the PA/NA arbitrtation where is says he couldn't do what Nicolau did? Was he wrong?

 

[Piedmont1984]

What if there is no union?

There are two concepts here, union apprenticeship and company probationary pilot or probationary period. Both happen to take place in the first year of service.

 

[traderjake]

That is one of the reasons Nicolau got it wrong.

No it's not.

Everything changes with a merger, you can't pick and choose which pre merger conditions you want to keep and which you want to discard.

You can't say I want to keep the attrition I would have had without the merger but discard the overwhelming probability that I would have had no job.

 

[end_of_alpa]

There are two concepts here, union apprenticeship and company probationary pilot or probationary period. Both happen to take place in the first year of service.

You can have an RLA company without a union, you CAN'T have an RLA union without a company.

 

[cleardirect]

Traditionally and historically the first year with the company is a probationary year for the new hire. It is during this period of time that he/she is scrutinized and evaluated by multiple parties, including training, management and line captains in order to determine whether the apprentice fits in, works well with others and does a competent job. Some have not made it past their probationary year.

To take a new hire and place them above any one else who is not, stands common sense on its head and is offensive, plain and simple. If you don't accept years of service as part of paying your dues, at least acknowledge that all shoud pay, at a minimum, that first year of 'dues'.

I have it. I have got the solution that will end this whole dispute. We have been hearing the whining and complaining and bitching and moaning about how 17 year east pilots were put below apprentice pilots and that is just not right blah,blah, blah.

OK here is the deal. In the interest of the entire bargaining unit to move us forward and to fix what you east pilots have been crying about for 6 years I am willing to throw a couple of my fellow west pilots under the bus for the good of us all.

All probationary (apprentice) west pilots will be junior to all east pilots by DOH.

There problem solved your biggest complaint about the Nicolau award is solved and the east pilots can stop whining and feel much better about yourselves. All 97 west apprentice pilots will be junior to anyone hired before 10/04. Yes all 1.9% of the seniority list will be shoved to the bottom so east pilots can see that all is right in your union world.

That if only Nicolau had put those 97 west pilots junior we all could have had a contract and another $100,000 in our pockets. Damn if only.

Yes those 97 west pilots were the hold up to a smooth seniority integration. There we are problem solved.

Oh wait you say that is not good enough and that really was not the problem? That you want more?

Stop with the BS. We all know if is not about apprentice pilots or union dues or any of the other crap you are trying to sell. It is about east pilots feeling butt hurt that someone pointed out and compared your piss poor career to the rest of the industry. That after 17 years of wasting your career at a failing airline that was equal to a new hire at another airline. It is hard when that is pointed out. But that was the reality of the situation.

 

[snapthis]

I agree with you that the AA merger is not going to go DOH. Where i disagree with you is that the APA is going to go with a hypothetical never implemented list. USAPA may try a combined DOH list, but they would be stupid to do that and I am sure their lawyers are telling them that. No I think they will slide 2 lists across the desk, one DOH (AWA list) and one DOH with some modifications (USAir list) The modifications being the list as it stands now from the previous mergers. And say "here are the current USAirways lists, per the MOU stipulations" And then APA will say "here is our list, per the MOU stipulations"

Just looking at it from an APA standpoint, In my opinion I think they are going to go with what is best for them. Which i think will be take the 3 current and active seniority lists as they appear on the POR date and come up with some slotting procedure with fences. What those fences may be is anybodys guess, base?, equipment? who knows.

The MOU is worded so that they get a free pass on anything that came before since the day that the POR comes to be, everything that we currently have on the USAirways side ceases to exist and becomes void including the status quo.

In my opinion, NO it wont be DOH, and it wont include the NIC. I think it will be a snapshot of what we are flying and bidding on the day of the POR. Looking back on the court rulings to date, and with the MOU that was voted in by a wide margin and how it is worded I don't think there is a court in the country that will rule against a 3 way integration as the lists look on the day of the POR.

There will be the inevitable lawsuits of course, we all know they will come. I just don't think they will go anywhere except send more money to some lawyers. I think the time for any chance at the west getting their NIC ruling is long past, same for a USAPA DOH ruling. That failed merger integration is ancient history and will go down in the history books as a failed experiment and a byproduct of the havoc reeked on the airline industry by 9/11 and the financial upheaval that followed.

Thanks for the constructive response. Previous history has shown that West pilots had to form alliances whether it is AWAPPA, Leonidas or group unity in general to even have a voice.

USAPA has not given us that voice and we are now one pilot group, albeit per USAPA's website, therefore,we should expect to be at the table to see exaclty which seniority "proposal" is being used.

 

[Pi brat]

No it's not.

Everything changes with a merger, you can't pick and choose which pre merger conditions you want to keep and which you want to discard.

You can't say I want to keep the attrition I would have had without the merger but discard the overwhelming probability that I would have had no job.

Parker has said over and over again that there was a probability that AWA wouldn't have stayed around and a certainty that it wouldn't have in it's 2005 form. So you accept that we wouldn't have a job, but not that the AWA situation was not too pretty.

Everything changed on the day of the merger and Parker didn't merge with US out of charity, or buy it's parts out of Chp 7. The new US Airways was much more valuable than AWA or US, and the merger unlocked things that made it so. It made is so for both groups, so why was one punished?

If you can't say you should keep your attrition(or at least some of it), why should an AWA pilot get the benefit of it? They didn't do anything to further the merger, most would have stopped it. Why should they get much greater advancement, ending up much higher than they could ever have expected, with more opportunities all at the expense of the other side?

Both sides should have shared the benefits/pains of the merger. Nicolau didn't do that, so it opened on opportunity to do the same thing in reverse to the west.

 

[cleardirect]

On its deathbed.

If only! If only the east could have produced some evidence under oath that proved that.

If only Nicolau had believed that during the arbitration.

If only AWA being on our deathbed in 2005 were true.

I know, I know Parker said it. But when did Parker start saying AWA WOULD have been in trouble? Because right up to and past the merger Parker was telling everyone we were fine stand alone.

 

[traderjake]

If you can't say you should keep your attrition(or at least some of it), why should an AWA pilot get the benefit of it? They didn't do anything to further the merger, most would have stopped it. Why should they get much greater advancement, ending up much higher than they could ever have expected, with more opportunities all at the expense of the other side?

Did we ask Nicolau to give us credit for our attrition?

Was he suppose to read our minds?

How can you complain about not getting something you didn't ask for?

Nicolau told us we weren't getting DOH and asked us to give him something he can work with.

We got less than we could have because of our own stupidity and greed.

 

[Pi brat]

Cleardirect,

Somewhere you wrote that the only thing the East MEC report to the ALPA BOD showed was that the longest delay in east upgrade was two years. If that is your conclusion then you must have just read the AOL brochure and not the actual report. It showed much more than that, very clearly. It shows the west windfall. Try to read it again.

http://www.planebusiness.com/planebuzzlinkfiles/mecusairways.pdf

 

[Pi brat]

Did we ask Nicolau to give us credit for our attrition?

Was he suppose to read our minds?

How can you complain about not getting something you didn't ask for?

We got less than we could have but it's because of our own stupidity and greed.

Yes, we did! Good God man, have you actually read the Nicolau Opinion and Award? It's why we proffered the method we did. Are you going with the premise that he was crazy too and couldn't figure it out?

Nicolau was tasked with constructing a fair SLI. Where in the ALPA merger policy did it say he was supposed to look at the social skills of the participants and punish those that didn't play well?

 

[Pi brat]

If only! If only the east could have produced some evidence under oath that proved that.

If only Nicolau had believed that during the arbitration.

If only AWA being on our deathbed in 2005 were true.

I know, I know Parker said it. But when did Parker start saying AWA WOULD have been in trouble? Because right up to and past the merger Parker was telling everyone we were fine stand alone.

Have you read the 2004 AWA annual report? That was not what he was saying.

Do you really think he did the merger out of charity?

Do you really think that absent the US merger you would be looking at merging with AA. Oh, that's right, you would be a Delta pilot right now like Ames said since that merger only fell through because of the old US pilots.

Man, there is some stupid stuff floating around on here.

 

[traderjake]

Yes, we did! Good God man, have you actually read the Nicolau Opinion and Award?

No we did not.

We ask him for DOH, period.

Even after he told us we weren't going to get it.

What's wrong with you today?

 

[traderjake]

Nicolau was tasked with constructing a fair SLI.

And for the most part, that's what he did.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Thanks for the constructive response. Previous history has shown that West pilots had to form alliances whether it is AWAPPA, Leonidas or group unity in general to even have a voice.

USAPA has not given us that voice and we are now one pilot group, albeit per USAPA's website, therefore,we should expect to be at the table to see exaclty which seniority "proposal" is being used.

Not correct. You passed on a "seat at the table" for almost the entire first year of USAPA. And you are still passing on any input concerning SLI issues. We have you covered. Your position as a Class is still the Nic or nothing. Noted. That position has been found to be unacceptable by the majority of our pilots. The ability of the "majority" to proffer a proposal other than that monstrosity has been upheld by the Courts.

Common sense says you cannot put a 17 year guy behind a new hire. And common sense says if you vote for a new methodology for SLI you will not be able to lay claim to any old and failed methods.

Still waiting for a combined list to be posted by the Company. And still waiting for a bid that covers all bases and includes all pilots.

Greeter