Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

Everyone knows exactly what you meant Jamie.

You really should stop digging that hole you're in, you might then have some credibility.

I can jab you the same way. Look in the mirror.

Now when do you want to quit with the banter and get down to a real debate?

 

[traderjake]

So, I ask agian what are you going to do when the APA slides that DOH list back across the table?

If history is any guide we'll say "We're happy with our position".

 

[end_of_alpa]

Problem solved. No more TA, nor more LOA93/C2004, no more SLI or seniority discussion of any kind. If the east pilots collectively had engaged in any level of critical thinking back in 2007 they would not have sought to replace ALPA with another CBA that inherits the same contracts and DFR duties as the former agent, but would have instead sought to decertify the pilot group as collective bargaining unit. If permitted by the NMB, then all pilots would have become at-will and Management would have assigned resources as need for the operational goals of the airline. If at-will wasn't working by the estimatation of a majority of pilots, then they could have held another representational election with clearly a defined seniority scheme that would have been instantly adopted at the time of certification. That methodology was the only certain way for east pilots to avoid the final and binding results of the NIC award.

Funny, but except for the "final and binding" part, I agree with you. In fact, you just contradicted your own argument that "final and binding" was absolute. You just now said that its not.

Glad you admit it.

 

[Pi brat]

Just curious..

Did you ever bother to read the Nicolau Award in its entirety?

What was your relative seniority on the pre-merger AAA list?

What was your relative seniority on the Nicolau Award?

Should pilots with 23 years of "seniority" but only 12 years of longevity placed ahead of West or AA pilots with similar longeveity?

Thanks in advance for your honest answers.

You know that you were one of my favorite guys to fly with, but this post really pXXXXX me off.

I have read the Nicolau award MANY times. I agree with some of the points he raises in the opinion, but when I get to the award I think "What the hell happened when you got to this part?" Have you read it? Do you agree with his XXXXXX up logic? I think you are falling into the same trap as west guys that DOH=bad, so Nic=good. You can be critical USAPA's tactics without hammering your co-workers.

My relative seniority on the Nic was about the same as it was stand alone for 2007. But, and I think you know this, it rapidly rose on the east stand alone list while it would have stagnated on the Nic as 1100 pilots were put in front of me, many younger. We have seen what has happened with separate ops.

Who has 23 years DOH but only 12 years LOS? I think that is a little off and remember, the east proposal to the arbitrator was LOS, not DOH.

You went from F/O to blockholder captain during the PSA merger, with a substantial raise, didn't you? Did you lament the cases of those that you windfall cost money and opportunity?

 

[cleardirect]

Furthermore, the self evident concept that a new hire or apprentice union member should never be placed ahead of others on the seniority list is implied in any DOH or LOS seniority regime. This concept as a stand alone also constitutes one of many LUPs.

You have a major failure in your logic.

We go to work for an airline not a union. Your membership or status in a union has ZERO bearing on your seniority. It does not matter how many check your have written to a union to determine seniority. Union membership or status (apprentice) is not an LUP.

Ever heard of a direct hire captain?

What about an airline that does not have a union? If jet blue merges with another airline should all JB pilots go to the bottom just because they don't pay union dues and the airline with a union should expect superior seniority?

You guys really need to expand your minds a bit and understand that US Airways was collapsing and going out of business. Trying to change the rules or impose some one time logic to steal an advantage just makes you look desperate and almost criminal.

Federal law (M/B) says you are wrong. 30 years of arbitrations and seniority awards say you are wrong.

Changing an arbitrated seniority list because you don't like it is not an LUP. That has already been determined in a court room.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You have a major failure in your logic.

We go to work for an airline not a union. Your membership or status in a union has ZERO bearing on your seniority. It does not matter how many check your have written to a union to determine seniority. Union membership or status (apprentice) is not an LUP.

Ever heard of a direct hire captain?

What about an airline that does not have a union? If jet blue merges with another airline should all JB pilots go to the bottom just because they don't pay union dues and the airline with a union should expect superior seniority?

You guys really need to expand your minds a bit and understand that US Airways was collapsing and going out of business. Trying to change the rules or impose some one time logic to steal an advantage just makes you look desperate and almost criminal.

Federal law (M/B) says you are wrong. 30 years of arbitrations and seniority awards say you are wrong.

Changing an arbitrated seniority list because you don't like it is not an LUP. That has already been determined in a court room.

So was AWA.

 

[Pi brat]

"Calling ANYONE who works for a living a lier and a cheat (and a scab, for that matter) ESPECIALLY when everyone knows who you are carries SIGNIFICANT repercussions. Remember the web boards and what you post can and will be used against you in any court.You MAY be innocent but the costs still add up. I am not threatening anyone myself, I'm simply admonishing that "you reap what you sow".


I guess some people can't be "reasoned" with.

I don't see anywhere in there where he is threatening anyone. He is just telling folks to be careful what they write as it can come back to haunt you.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Which list was accepted by the company? Not DOH. Which list going to be accepted by the APA? Not DOH.

I'll ask the question West pilots have asked for years. What's your plan B?

I've spent some time going through emails from my contacts from the APA. Here are some quotes:

"Just at a union meeting today.

From what I got from the meeting, APA is not endorsing USAPA's position."

"Date of hire aint gonna happen since those guys are so old over there they would immediately be placed on all the wide-body international flying and we would all be stuck with the rest.

Ain't gonna happen"

"The easties have dragged the whole industry down for years and cost themselves mucho dinero. They know it and so does everyone else."

So, I ask agian what are you going to do when the APA slides that DOH list back across the table?


I'm more confident than ever this is going to come to a resolution very soon.

A few "emails" don't make an argument.

Secondly, it is not the APA's job to determine what "list" USAPA puts forth. If it were, they'd be exposed to legal liability themselves and I truly believe their only position is to integrate what they think they want to argue is their list with what USAPA has integrated with APA's list....whatever APA determines that to be.

 

[Claxon]

You know that you were one of my favorite guys to fly with, but this post really pXXXXX me off.

I have read the Nicolau award MANY times. I agree with some of the points he raises in the opinion, but when I get to the award I think "What the hell happened when you got to this part?" Have you read it? Do you agree with his XXXXXX up logic? I think you are falling into the same trap as west guys that DOH=bad, so Nic=good. You can be critical USAPA's tactics without hammering your co-workers.

My relative seniority on the Nic was about the same as it was stand alone for 2007. But, and I think you know this, it rapidly rose on the east stand alone list while it would have stagnated on the Nic as 1100 pilots were put in front of me, many younger. We have seen what has happened with separate ops.

Who has 23 years DOH but only 12 years LOS? I think that is a little off and remember, the east proposal to the arbitrator was LOS, not DOH.

You went from F/O to blockholder captain during the PSA merger, with a substantial raise, didn't you? Did you lament the cases of those that you windfall cost money and opportunity?

He just wants his easy commute I hear. If throwing his fellow pilots to the curb expedites it, so be it. The funny part is reading the Westoffs even threw him off. Shows you just how dysfunctional that group is.
The ones who most likely denied him were Ames or Res. or Metro. Those three are borderline.

 

[Pi brat]

This is a direct quote from the US Airways pilots seniority list:

"Its history (Us Air) shows a steady

decline in its fortunes, with no hiring at all between 1990 and 1998, an​

unsuccessful Metrojet "airline within an airline" venture, an inability​

because of government disapproval to merge with a then stronger​

United Airlines, continuing furloughs after September 11, 2001, a​

concessionary Restructuring Agreement in July 2002, an August 2002​

bankruptcy filing, a failed reorganization following its emergence from​

bankruptcy because of its inability to resolve its structural problems,​

and a consequent second bankruptcy in September 2004, after which​

its pilots had to make additional concessions of both pay and​

protection if the carrier was to have a chance to survive. When all this​

is coupled with the fact that as of the time of the merger there had not​

even been the presentation of a stand-alone reorganization plan to its​

creditors' committee it is plain that the career expectations of the US​

Airways pilots were bleak indeed, with no prospect of growth or​

significant advancement even through attrition, and the clear​

possibility of no jobs at all."​

Why were the top 500 positions given to East pilots when they had no airplanes to fly absent the merger?​

There's was a windfall alright. ​

Question:

Did any pilots career expectations change the day the AWA-US merger was announced?

 

[cleardirect]

So was AWA.

what?

So was AWA what?

 

[end_of_alpa]

what?

So was AWA what?

On its deathbed.

 

[traderjake]

I don't see anywhere in there where he is threatening anyone. He is just telling folks to be careful what they write as it can come back to haunt you.

Yeah, sure, whatever you say.

And Nicolau got it wrong because your relative position is different today compared to the day of the merger.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Which list was accepted by the company? Not DOH. Which list going to be accepted by the APA? Not DOH.

I'll ask the question West pilots have asked for years. What's your plan B?

I've spent some time going through emails from my contacts from the APA. Here are some quotes:

"Just at a union meeting today.

From what I got from the meeting, APA is not endorsing USAPA's position."

"Date of hire aint gonna happen since those guys are so old over there they would immediately be placed on all the wide-body international flying and we would all be stuck with the rest.

Ain't gonna happen"

"The easties have dragged the whole industry down for years and cost themselves mucho dinero. They know it and so does everyone else."

So, I ask agian what are you going to do when the APA slides that DOH list back across the table?


I'm more confident than ever this is going to come to a resolution very soon.

I agree with you that the AA merger is not going to go DOH. Where i disagree with you is that the APA is going to go with a hypothetical never implemented list. USAPA may try a combined DOH list, but they would be stupid to do that and I am sure their lawyers are telling them that. No I think they will slide 2 lists across the desk, one DOH (AWA list) and one DOH with some modifications (USAir list) The modifications being the list as it stands now from the previous mergers. And say "here are the current USAirways lists, per the MOU stipulations" And then APA will say "here is our list, per the MOU stipulations"

Just looking at it from an APA standpoint, In my opinion I think they are going to go with what is best for them. Which i think will be take the 3 current and active seniority lists as they appear on the POR date and come up with some slotting procedure with fences. What those fences may be is anybodys guess, base?, equipment? who knows.

The MOU is worded so that they get a free pass on anything that came before since the day that the POR comes to be, everything that we currently have on the USAirways side ceases to exist and becomes void including the status quo.

In my opinion, NO it wont be DOH, and it wont include the NIC. I think it will be a snapshot of what we are flying and bidding on the day of the POR. Looking back on the court rulings to date, and with the MOU that was voted in by a wide margin and how it is worded I don't think there is a court in the country that will rule against a 3 way integration as the lists look on the day of the POR.

There will be the inevitable lawsuits of course, we all know they will come. I just don't think they will go anywhere except send more money to some lawyers. I think the time for any chance at the west getting their NIC ruling is long past, same for a USAPA DOH ruling. That failed merger integration is ancient history and will go down in the history books as a failed experiment and a byproduct of the havoc reeked on the airline industry by 9/11 and the financial upheaval that followed.

 

[end_of_alpa]

what?

So was AWA what?

From the evidence, it is clear enough that the merger with AWA was a
meaningful factor in U.S. Airway's emergence from bankruptcy. Together, the
two companies were able to attract investments that, operating alone, they might
not have secured. However, West's claim that U.S. Airways emerged from
bankruptcy “only because it [was] acquired by a stronger enterprise”10 is reflected
neither in the KPMG audit report (cited by West)11 nor in any other portion of the
evidence. Instead, each carrier had something to contribute. Airways, for
example, was much larger. It served almost twice as many destinations as AWA
and carried twice the number of passengers.12 Airways has substantially more
cash on hand, following the merger agreement. AWA, for its part, brought relative success as a low cost carrier operation with a meaningful presence in the
Western United States.

Airways' “fresh start”13 included a series of steps designed to strengthen
Airways' financial situation. Among other things, it entered into concessionary
bargaining with its unions, ultimately securing some $1 billion dollars per year in
cost reductions. 14 Termination of certain existing defined benefit and other post-
retirement benefit plans generated substantial savings.15 A 35 percent decrease
in labor cost16 taken together with other cost saving measures, resulted in a
positive net operating income for the second and third quarters of 2005, prior to
approval of the merger agreement in September of 2005.

17 AWA, for its part,
while not in bankruptcy, was attempting to confront what it regarded as a
troubled and potentially perilous future, absent the merger, in the face of rising
fuel costs and depressed unit revenues as a result of over capacity, among other
things. It, too, needed cash.

West characterizes the merger decision on AWA's part as a one-way
economic bailout. But there is no support for this in the record; surely, the
respective companies did not endorse that view. AWA concluded, according to
the statements of its CEO, that “…when we looked out at our future, what we saw wasn't good…. Assuming we couldn't go out and restructure or raise cash, it is
possible that AWA would have been facing its own Chapter 11 at some point.

Employees may like to think we “saved” US but the fact is we saved each other…18

The June 10, 2005 issue of “Plane Deal”, an AWA publication, touted some
of the benefits of joining fleet forces:

When merged, the combined airline will become the nation's 5th larges airline, as measured by domestic available seat miles (ASMs). The combined airline is expected to operated a mainline fleet of 361 planes (supported by 239 regional jets and 57 turbo props for feed into the mainline system), down from a total of 419 mainline aircraft operated by both airlines at the beginning of 2005….19

In the context of a “Town Hall” Q&A , the company noted
the prospect of a combined airline was more enticing to investors:

The money is being raised for the combined airline, because investors see the value in the merged entity. Frankly, airlines in their current state don't look appealing to investors, who are savvy to know industry change needs to take place. The proposed merger represents the kind of change that investors believe will be successful. So, unfortunately, we wouldn't garner this kind of interest if we were seeking funding for America West “as is.”20

Much of West's claimed superiority over East, in terms of what it brought
to the merger, is speculative.

There is, for example, scant support for West's
claim that, post-merger, “the focus of lender anxiety is clearly on the side of U.S. Airways”21 or that, following the merger, with the AWA CEO assuming the helm
in Phoenix, “the predator king gets to have the top job, to grant fiefs to his
chieftains, and to fly the flag over his castle!”22