Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

Like when you threaten with lawsuits people who don't agree with you?

This is a yes or no question.

I'm not sure what you mean. Elaborate, please.

In rephrasing the question, do you mean to say have I ever threatened anyone on the forum with a lawsuit?

No, I have not personally threatened you or anyone else. HOWEVER, as I have always said, there are those who could conceivably consider what gets posted on the forum as a threat. Threats, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder.

 

[traderjake]

I'm not sure what you mean. Elaborate, please.

In rephrasing the question, do you mean to say have I ever threatened anyone on the forum with a lawsuit?

No, I have not personally threatened you or anyone else. HOWEVER, as I have always said, there are those who could conceivably consider what gets posted on the forum as a threat. Threats, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder.

"Calling ANYONE who works for a living a lier and a cheat (and a scab, for that matter) ESPECIALLY when everyone knows who you are carries SIGNIFICANT repercussions. Remember the web boards and what you post can and will be used against you in any court. You MAY be innocent but the costs still add up. I am not threatening anyone myself, I'm simply admonishing that "you reap what you sow".


I guess some people can't be "reasoned" with.

 

[cactusboy53]

Well, with "round II" of lawsuits I wouldn't go out and get a loan based on your legal position. You'll just have to find out the hard way, I guess.

Keep clickin' those ruby red shoes Jamie. We continue to stand firmly on legal, ethical & moral high ground. SYIC.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Keep clickin' those ruby red shoes Jamie. We continue to stand firmly on legal, ethical & moral high ground. SYIC.

Well, so far, it's way uphill for you and keeps going backward, Dave.

Good luck.

SYIC.

 

[snapthis]

Good for you, Greeter! You got yours. A 1985 hire at a "major airline" that was sure to go out of business in 2005-2006.

All that it cost you was:

• $10,000,000.00+ of our dues.
• $3,000,000.00+ of Leonidas' funding & funds used to defend the Cactus 18(24+) in defense of the continued persecution and cheating of the former AWA pilots.
• The complete inability to EVER take any of you at "your word" ever again.
• Your integrity.
• Perhaps a small piece of your Soul.

I don't know how this will finally end. Hearing how you finally got yours at the expense of the AWA pilot group makes it very difficult to entertain a shred of compassion for you and your group.

I guess the courts will hopefully bring this to a conclusion.

CB

This is a direct quote from the US Airways pilots seniority list:

"Its history (Us Air) shows a steady

decline in its fortunes, with no hiring at all between 1990 and 1998, an​

unsuccessful Metrojet "airline within an airline" venture, an inability​

because of government disapproval to merge with a then stronger​

United Airlines, continuing furloughs after September 11, 2001, a​

concessionary Restructuring Agreement in July 2002, an August 2002​

bankruptcy filing, a failed reorganization following its emergence from​

bankruptcy because of its inability to resolve its structural problems,​

and a consequent second bankruptcy in September 2004, after which​

its pilots had to make additional concessions of both pay and​

protection if the carrier was to have a chance to survive. When all this​

is coupled with the fact that as of the time of the merger there had not​

even been the presentation of a stand-alone reorganization plan to its​

creditors' committee it is plain that the career expectations of the US​

Airways pilots were bleak indeed, with no prospect of growth or​

significant advancement even through attrition, and the clear​

possibility of no jobs at all."​

Why were the top 500 positions given to East pilots when they had no airplanes to fly absent the merger?​

There's was a windfall alright. ​

 

[Piedmont1984]

Traditionally and historically the first year with the company is a probationary year for the new hire. It is during this period of time that he/she is scrutinized and evaluated by multiple parties, including training, management and line captains in order to determine whether the apprentice fits in, works well with others and does a competent job. Some have not made it past their probationary year.

To take a new hire and place them above any one else who is not, stands common sense on its head and is offensive, plain and simple. If you don't accept years of service as part of paying your dues, at least acknowledge that all shoud pay, at a minimum, that first year of 'dues'.

Furthermore, the self evident concept that a new hire or apprentice union member should never be placed ahead of others on the seniority list is implied in any DOH or LOS seniority regime. This concept as a stand alone also constitutes one of many LUPs.

 

[Keroseneuser]

This is a direct quote from the US Airways pilots seniority list:

"Its history (Us Air) shows a steady

decline in its fortunes, with no hiring at all between 1990 and 1998, an​

unsuccessful Metrojet "airline within an airline" venture, an inability​

because of government disapproval to merge with a then stronger​

United Airlines, continuing furloughs after September 11, 2001, a​

concessionary Restructuring Agreement in July 2002, an August 2002​

bankruptcy filing, a failed reorganization following its emergence from​

bankruptcy because of its inability to resolve its structural problems,​

and a consequent second bankruptcy in September 2004, after which​

its pilots had to make additional concessions of both pay and​

protection if the carrier was to have a chance to survive. When all this​

is coupled with the fact that as of the time of the merger there had not​

even been the presentation of a stand-alone reorganization plan to its​

creditors' committee it is plain that the career expectations of the US​

Airways pilots were bleak indeed, with no prospect of growth or​

significant advancement even through attrition, and the clear​

possibility of no jobs at all."​

Why were the top 500 positions given to East pilots when they had no airplanes to fly absent the merger?​

There's was a windfall alright. ​

Quote from the seniority list huh?

As of today 3/12/13 there are two pilot seniority lists at USAirways. that is a fact that we all bid from each month for schedules.

There is also a hypothetical never used combined list that to date has not met the requirements per the active transition agreement to be implemented.

Per current events and the recently voted upon and passed by all MOU, it remains to be seen if the hypothetical list will ever be implemented. Reading it i don't think it ever will be, but that is my opinion and not a fact. The courts will figure it out at some point in the future, probably several more years.

When you continually try to place your opinion as fact, in such posts as the one above, it smells of someone who is worried their opinion is wrong. Until that final court ruling some years from now everything you and I post on the subject is just an opinion article and meaningless in the day to day operation and bidding process of this airline.

For many on here it looks like you are going to end up wasting a pretty large chunk of your life obsessing over an opinion. One that you really have no power to influence or change. Very sad to see.

 

[end_of_alpa]

"Calling ANYONE who works for a living a lier and a cheat (and a scab, for that matter) ESPECIALLY when everyone knows who you are carries SIGNIFICANT repercussions. Remember the web boards and what you post can and will be used against you in any court. You MAY be innocent but the costs still add up. I am not threatening anyone myself, I'm simply admonishing that "you reap what you sow".


I guess some people can't be "reasoned" with.

You know, Dan, I think everyone got my point....except you. I agree with you.

I guess some people can't be "reasoned" with.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Furthermore, the self evident concept that a new hire or apprentice union member should never be placed ahead of others on the seniority list is implied in any DOH or LOS seniority regime. This concept as a stand alone also constitutes one of many LUPs.

What if there is no union?

 

[traderjake]

You know, Dan, I think everyone got my point....except you. I agree with you.

I guess some people can't be "reasoned" with.

Everyone knows exactly what you meant Jamie.

You really should stop digging that hole you're in, you might then have some credibility.

 

[CallawayGolf]

What if there is no union?

Problem solved. No more TA, nor more LOA93/C2004, no more SLI or seniority discussion of any kind. If the east pilots collectively had engaged in any level of critical thinking back in 2007 they would not have sought to replace ALPA with another CBA that inherits the same contracts and DFR duties as the former agent, but would have instead sought to decertify the pilot group as collective bargaining unit. If permitted by the NMB, then all pilots would have become at-will and Management would have assigned resources as need for the operational goals of the airline. If at-will wasn't working by the estimatation of a majority of pilots, then they could have held another representational election with clearly a defined seniority scheme that would have been instantly adopted at the time of certification. That methodology was the only certain way for east pilots to avoid the final and binding results of the NIC award.

 

[cleardirect]

I'm not sure what you mean. Elaborate, please.

In rephrasing the question, do you mean to say have I ever threatened anyone on the forum with a lawsuit?

No, I have not personally threatened you or anyone else. HOWEVER, as I have always said, there are those who could conceivably consider what gets posted on the forum as a threat. Threats, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder.

Just like fairness.

Yet you east pilots want east pilots to decide how east pilots will be senior to west pilots and you consider that fair. while a neutral third party deciding in your eyes is unfair.

 

[Claxon]

Keep clickin' those ruby red shoes Jamie. We continue to stand firmly on legal, ethical & moral high ground. SYIC.

You are correct. File another suit. Mrs. Harper is counting on it. Her Benz is approaching the 1500 mile limit of interest.

 

[snapthis]

Quote from the seniority list huh?

As of today 3/12/13 there are two pilot seniority lists at USAirways. that is a fact that we all bid from each month for schedules.

There is also a hypothetical never used combined list that to date has not met the requirements per the active transition agreement to be implemented.

Per current events and the recently voted upon and passed by all MOU, it remains to be seen if the hypothetical list will ever be implemented. Reading it i don't think it ever will be, but that is my opinion and not a fact. The courts will figure it out at some point in the future, probably several more years.

When you continually try to place your opinion as fact, in such posts as the one above, it smells of someone who is worried their opinion is wrong. Until that final court ruling some years from now everything you and I post on the subject is just an opinion article and meaningless in the day to day operation and bidding process of this airline.

For many on here it looks like you are going to end up wasting a pretty large chunk of your life obsessing over an opinion. One that you really have no power to influence or change. Very sad to see.

Which list was accepted by the company? Not DOH. Which list going to be accepted by the APA? Not DOH.

I'll ask the question West pilots have asked for years. What's your plan B?

I've spent some time going through emails from my contacts from the APA. Here are some quotes:

"Just at a union meeting today.

From what I got from the meeting, APA is not endorsing USAPA's position."

"Date of hire aint gonna happen since those guys are so old over there they would immediately be placed on all the wide-body international flying and we would all be stuck with the rest.

Ain't gonna happen"

"The easties have dragged the whole industry down for years and cost themselves mucho dinero. They know it and so does everyone else."

So, I ask agian what are you going to do when the APA slides that DOH list back across the table?


I'm more confident than ever this is going to come to a resolution very soon.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Just like fairness.

Yet you east pilots want east pilots to decide how east pilots will be senior to west pilots and you consider that fair. while a neutral third party deciding in your eyes is unfair.

Just like the government telling you what "safe" is.

Lets just let lawyers fly the plane and you sit back end enjoy the ride.