Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

Whatever list USAPA submits to the M/B process, that list will probably remain untouched right up through the arbitration if it goes that far. IOW, the order of names on the LCC list will not change. APA doesn't care the order of the LCC list, only where it fits into the combined APA/LCC list.

So I think an argument can be made that once USAPA submits a list, that's as ripe as it's ever going to get.

USAPA needs to tread very carefully here, this is the 'dangerous ground' the courts have been warning us about. Submit a straight LCC DOH list with the orignal C&R's, knowing full well that the final, consolidated LCC/APA list will not be DOH and USAPA is making the same mistake that our ALPA team made in 2007.

Respectfully disagree. This merger is still tentative. It has yet to pass DOJ review. What if it never happens? The 9th clearly stated the West needs to have a contract memorialize this for harm. And by the way, the West just overwhelmingly voted for the MOU. Best pay rates ever. Harm? Also, they were urged to do it by Harper and Leonidas under the false pretext the MOU was as good as a JCBA. They did it knowing the Nic was not in it. Not the fault of USAPA they got fed poor legal advice. Read their filing. They are way off the mark on their understanding of labor law. Again. They are opening themselves up for a possible re visit to the 9th if an AZ court screws up again. This time it will be totally clear what has to be met. They are the ones treading dangerous ground, and spending lots of money they will need for their on and only chance later.

 

[Metroyet]

Still trying to figure why you jumped the gun on ripeness, again. Your best and only shot would be after a JCBA. Theoretically, USAPA could pass a Nic list in the end. Either way, you don't know and you are premature on that one alone. You are going into this speculating what list will be used. Dangerous.
You also claim the MOU was not beneficial to the West, yet virtually all of you voted for it. How do you now argue it was not a good deal on pay? It is the high water mark for a former AWA pilot, the best pay rate you have ever recorded. Yet you claim USAPA has harmed you. Best pay ever, fact. No seniority list of DOH actually having been passed nor accepted by LCC. Damage? Who dreamed this idea up? LUP? So far that union you railed against brought you a historic pay rate. Good luck. You are going to need it.

You don't need to understand anything except this is a whole new animal. Did you really think pretending the AMW merger never happened was going to work forever? Lets be clear, THE APA got you those pay rates, the merger got you those pay rates. USAPA has had 5 years to accomplish something and we all know without the merger you'd still be stuck in the mud. USAPA has been a collassal all waste of time and money and had provided the membership with exactly NOTHING. This is coming to an end this time. The fear from USAPA is palpable...the irrational and legally flawed suit in bk court attempting to ban a LLC from stoping the merger is proof of desperation. You guys took the bait and the hook has been set.

 

[cleardirect]

You're right, the thing that matters is your career expectations the day before the merger was anounced.

You are correct.

 

[snapthis]

Whatever list USAPA submits to the M/B process, that list will probably remain untouched right up through the arbitration if it goes that far. IOW, the order of names on the LCC list will not change. APA doesn't care the order of the LCC list, only where it fits into the combined APA/LCC list.

So I think an argument can be made that once USAPA submits a list, that's as ripe as it's ever going to get.

USAPA needs to tread very carefully here, this is the 'dangerous ground' the courts have been warning us about. Submit a straight LCC DOH list with the orignal C&R's, knowing full well that the final, consolidated LCC/APA list will not be DOH and USAPA is making the same mistake that our ALPA team made in 2007.

I want them to walk on the dangerous ground the 9th envisioned. The judges pretty much laid out the roadmap. I'm right along with the 9th cheerleaders. Let's go to San Fran.

 

[Metroyet]

Whatever list USAPA submits to the M/B process, that list will probably remain untouched right up through the arbitration if it goes that far. IOW, the order of names on the LCC list will not change. APA doesn't care the order of the LCC list, only where it fits into the combined APA/LCC list.

So I think an argument can be made that once USAPA submits a list, that's as ripe as it's ever going to get.

USAPA needs to tread very carefully here, this is the 'dangerous ground' the courts have been warning us about. Submit a straight LCC DOH list with the orignal C&R's, knowing full well that the final, consolidated LCC/APA list will not be DOH and USAPA is making the same mistake that our ALPA team made in 2007.

But what of your precious C&BL? What about the Gold Standard? What about the threatened DFR from the East pilots? The ripeness issue was resolved when you voted from the JCBA cloaked in the MOU. Your leader, in yet another brilliant move, published the unions position just last month that promised to repudiate the nic "in its entirety". You guys have painted yourselves into the very last corner. At POR, when you get your lump payout, this is over. USAPA is truly a lame duck organization...you KNOW that's a fact. After a court orders the use of the nic, USAPA should do the right thing, return the money they've extorted from everyone and dissolve. There is no use for USAPA in this merger.

 

[cleardirect]

The Recall ensured that the CLT Reps put the MOU out for a vote.

McKee thinks we left $90,000 per pilot on the table and said that the Recall could not have come at a worse time.

Absent the threat of Recall would the CLT Reps have held out for more?

McKee must be one heck of a negotiator. If he thinks he could have gotten another $450 million out of the UCC. The NAC said the 6 year package was worth $1.6 billion. another $450 million would have been a 28% increase.

Go get em Bill. If he had only held out little longer. His strategy has worked so well so far.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Respectfully disagree. This merger is still tentative. It has yet to pass DOJ review. What if it never happens? The 9th clearly stated the West needs to have a contract memorialize this for harm. And by the way, the West just overwhelmingly voted for the MOU. Best pay rates ever. Harm? Also, they were urged to do it by Harper and Leonidas under the false pretext the MOU was as good as a JCBA. They did it knowing the Nic was not in it. Not the fault of USAPA they got fed poor legal advice. Read their filing. They are way off the mark on their understanding of labor law. Again. They are opening themselves up for a possible re visit to the 9th if an AZ court screws up again. This time it will be totally clear what has to be met. They are the ones treading dangerous ground, and spending lots of money they will need for their on and only chance later.

That's exactly right.

 

[cleardirect]

Still trying to figure why you jumped the gun on ripeness, again. Your best and only shot would be after a JCBA. Theoretically, USAPA could pass a Nic list in the end. Either way, you don't know and you are premature on that one alone. You are going into this speculating what list will be used. Dangerous.
You also claim the MOU was not beneficial to the West, yet virtually all of you voted for it. How do you now argue it was not a good deal on pay? It is the high water mark for a former AWA pilot, the best pay rate you have ever recorded. Yet you claim USAPA has harmed you. Best pay ever, fact. No seniority list of DOH actually having been passed nor accepted by LCC. Damage? Who dreamed this idea up? LUP? So far that union you railed against brought you a historic pay rate. Good luck. You are going to need it.

Are you saying that usapa has been lying to the pilots for 6 years now. That every update, every president's message, every vote and every rule usapa has passed that said they will never use the Nicolau was just a lie? That really in the end usapa is going to use the Nicolau and the last 6 years have been a huge waste of time. opps sorry never mind.

usapa has made it extremely clear to everyone including the courts that they NEVER intend to use the Nicolau. So now, in a month or after JCBA does not matter. It is not speculation, at some point when do you take someone at their word that they are going to harm you? Ever heard of a restraining order? Those are issued on the threat of harm.

A DOH list has been passed to the company back in 2008 the company has not accepted it. Nor will they ever.

Who dreamed up the LUP? The legal system. Read the orders. Just like the west did not dream up the Nicolau list. Outside people have looked at this situation and decided that the east pilots are wrong.

Finally it was not usapa that got us anything. It was the merger and APA that set the table for those pay rates and a contract. Let on their own usapa was never going to get a contract. usapa (east pilots) is the problem not the solution.

 

[Black Swan]

You don't need to understand anything except this is a whole new animal. Did you really think pretending the AMW merger never happened was going to work forever? Lets be clear, THE APA got you those pay rates, the merger got you those pay rates. USAPA has had 5 years to accomplish something and we all know without the merger you'd still be stuck in the mud. USAPA has been a collassal all waste of time and money and had provided the membership with exactly NOTHING. This is coming to an end this time. The fear from USAPA is palpable...the irrational and legally flawed suit in bk court attempting to ban a LLC from stoping the merger is proof of desperation. You guys took the bait and the hook has been set.

Pretending the merger never happened? Are you serious? No, only that a JCBA never happened, which is what you needed. USAPA also endorsed the MOU. They are part and parcel of it. Who conducted the roadshows Metro? I didn't see it being run by the APA. It was USAPA that was fully part of it. Therefore, they helped get you the highest pay in history for former AWA pilots. Harm? Hardly. Nothing is different, including the fact you are doomed once more to repeat history. Unripe. Damage? Hardly. Bait? Hook? Ridiculous. That goes with the flawed idea you had that an MOU was a JCBA. That misunderstanding is what will kill your argument. That was fully explained in the MOU, and just because you can't understand it is not anyones fault but your own. USAPA got an almost unanimous vote recorded in PHX that you fully understood seniority was not dealt with in the MOU, and you voted yes on that fact. That is incredibly damning to your idea.


[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

 

[nevergiveup]

You are correct.

So career expectations are guaranteed....cool!.....but wait......I don't think they have happened for you. Thus proving once again that career expectations are the biggest myth in aviation!

 

[Black Swan]

But what of your precious C&BL? What about the Gold Standard? What about the threatened DFR from the East pilots? The ripeness issue was resolved when you voted from the JCBA cloaked in the MOU. Your leader, in yet another brilliant move, published the unions position just last month that promised to repudiate the nic "in its entirety". You guys have painted yourselves into the very last corner. At POR, when you get your lump payout, this is over. USAPA is truly a lame duck organization...you KNOW that's a fact. After a court orders the use of the nic, USAPA should do the right thing, return the money they've extorted from everyone and dissolve. There is no use for USAPA in this merger.

This has got to be the funniest thing written about this. Cloaking devices being used now Metro? Where can I get one?

 

[Black Swan]

You don't need to understand anything except this is a whole new animal. Did you really think pretending the AMW merger never happened was going to work forever? Lets be clear, THE APA got you those pay rates, the merger got you those pay rates. USAPA has had 5 years to accomplish something and we all know without the merger you'd still be stuck in the mud. USAPA has been a collassal all waste of time and money and had provided the membership with exactly NOTHING. This is coming to an end this time. The fear from USAPA is palpable...the irrational and legally flawed suit in bk court attempting to ban a LLC from stoping the merger is proof of desperation. You guys took the bait and the hook has been set.

You missed this one by a mile Leonidas, a mile. A MOU is NOT a JCBA

You might think that memoranda of understanding sound suspiciously similar to contracts, but there are actually significant differences between the two. A contract is a written, private agreement between two parties that is legally binding and can be enforced by a judge.
Contracts spell out the nitty-gritty obligations of each party which, if breached, can spell dire consequences for the entity that breaks it. Contracts are necessary when there is any sort of exchange of money because they help to protect the interests of both parties and ensure trust.
"MOUs are less formal than contracts, and typically include fewer details and complexities, but they are more formal than handshake agreements, sometimes called gentlemen's agreements. All sorts of entities use MOUs to create guidelines for each party as they contribute their efforts and resources toward important projects. But ultimately, the reason that parties opt for MOUs is because they are simpler and more flexible than contracts.
Well-written MOUs reflect diplomatic savvy and creative analytical thinking. They also provide a mutually beneficial framework that both entities can work within to achieve shared goals."

 

[cleardirect]

Someone complained that they lost 1100 spots to west pilots in the last merger and that was evidence of a windfall.

All you east pilots are convinced that usapa is going to be able to kill the Nicolau and at the minimum use three lists.

I think everyone understands and according to the president of APA this next merger is not going to go DOH or LOS.

So let me ask a few questions about what you east pilots think is the best seniority list you are going to get and how the list should be handled.

The last APA list I have is 2012 listing 10,730 names. 1000 deferred and 650 furloughed not recalled, total on furlough 1666. The senior furloughed not recalled APA pilots has a 6/2001 hire date and the junior furloughed pilot has a DOH of 11/2001. 247 AE flow through. Total active pilots 8390

If you guys were on the arbitration panel how would you create the list?

Can we all agree that under any situation the third list pilots hired after the merger should be below both east and west pilots?

With a hired date between 6/2001 and 11/2001 APA pilots are on furlough. Would you place those furloughed pilot above or below current active east pilots? There are 125 east pilots that would be junior to furloughed pilots in addition to all of the third list new hires. How would you treat your own pilots in relation to furloughed pilots?

There are 247 AE flow through that have a DOH between 2001 and 2008. Do you consider them to be on the list as APA pilots? Remember what you did with the CEL pilots. Would you put them below active east and west pilots even though they are not on property or ever turned a wheel for mainline. Would you ignore their DOH and place them at the bottom or give them credit for just being on the list and give them seniority over east or west pilots hired some before 2001?

Total pilots on the APA list is 10730 and the junior active pilot on their list is 9844. Meaning there are 892 APA pilots that are not bringing a job to the merger. So do you east pilots stick with your same arguments that DOH/LOS means something and consider the bottom of their list to be 9844 or 10730? Where do you want to place Varini? Being he is the bottom of the east list before the AWA/US merger. Would you like to have 9844 senior to him or 10,500 senior to him? Does the loss of 10,000 numbers constitute a windfall for the APA pilots even though he is the junior pilot and there are 10000 pilots that make up the junior pilot at APA?

How would you east pilots handle merging the bottom of the list between APA and usapa? Keep in mind all of your arguments have been made here on how Nicolau should have handled the list. Also keep in mind every junior east guy you throw under the bus is less support you get for stealing from the west. Lastly new hires did not have a dog in the fight between east and west. Are you going to throw them under the bus too?

What logic would you east pilots use to integrate the bottom of the seniority list?

 

[Black Swan]

Someone complained that they lost 1100 spots to west pilots in the last merger and that was evidence of a windfall.

All you east pilots are convinced that usapa is going to be able to kill the Nicolau and at the minimum use three lists.

I think everyone understands and according to the president of APA this next merger is not going to go DOH or LOS.

So let me ask a few questions about what you east pilots think is the best seniority list you are going to get and how the list should be handled.

The last APA list I have is 2012 listing 10,730 names. 1000 deferred and 650 furloughed not recalled, total on furlough 1666. The senior furloughed not recalled APA pilots has a 6/2001 hire date and the junior furloughed pilot has a DOH of 11/2001. 247 AE flow through. Total active pilots 8390

If you guys were on the arbitration panel how would you create the list?

Can we all agree that under any situation the third list pilots hired after the merger should be below both east and west pilots?

With a hired date between 6/2001 and 11/2001 APA pilots are on furlough. Would you place those furloughed pilot above or below current active east pilots? There are 125 east pilots that would be junior to furloughed pilots in addition to all of the third list new hires. How would you treat your own pilots in relation to furloughed pilots?

There are 247 AE flow through that have a DOH between 2001 and 2008. Do you consider them to be on the list as APA pilots? Remember what you did with the CEL pilots. Would you put them below active east and west pilots even though they are not on property or ever turned a wheel for mainline. Would you ignore their DOH and place them at the bottom or give them credit for just being on the list and give them seniority over east or west pilots hired some before 2001?

Total pilots on the APA list is 10730 and the junior active pilot on their list is 9844. Meaning there are 892 APA pilots that are not bringing a job to the merger. So do you east pilots stick with your same arguments that DOH/LOS means something and consider the bottom of their list to be 9844 or 10730? Where do you want to place Varini? Being he is the bottom of the east list before the AWA/US merger. Would you like to have 9844 senior to him or 10,500 senior to him? Does the loss of 10,000 numbers constitute a windfall for the APA pilots even though he is the junior pilot and there are 10000 pilots that make up the junior pilot at APA?

How would you east pilots handle merging the bottom of the list between APA and usapa? Keep in mind all of your arguments have been made here on how Nicolau should have handled the list. Also keep in mind every junior east guy you throw under the bus is less support you get for stealing from the west. Lastly new hires did not have a dog in the fight between east and west. Are you going to throw them under the bus too?

What logic would you east pilots use to integrate the bottom of the seniority list?

Not even going here. Subject of refute is the Leonidas filing. Let's keep on this one. Clear, do you also hold that an MOU is a JCBA as Metro does?

 

[Ames]

If Nicolau was such a bad arbitrator and he was know for making his decisions by roulette, why did the East want him to determine seniority?

They wanted him because they worked with him on the Trump merger. They thought they had an advantage over the west in having worked with him previously. In the Trump merger it he weighed age and attrition heavily and that also would have advantaged the east over the west. There is no doubt the east desperately wanted Nicolau.