Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Beancounter]

Don't stress. You don't have to worry about going out to the parking lot and finding your tires flat. We don't shove people into metal door frames either.

We'll see you in court. You're buying lunch.

Just remember, some of the APA pilots are just as friendly. I can think of one union meeting where two pilots went at it in a conference room, one guy ended up with a Justin boot print on his face. Those two are probally retired now, but they have their share of friendly people.

Bean

 

[EastUS1]

USAPA has stated they will present a DOH list to APA. That is basically promising to break the law.

"That is basically promising to break the law."...? Really? Which law would that be?

 

[Claxon]

Nothing like a good lawsuit to get ClearFergie off the board to tend the latest brush fire about to take down Lyingitas

 

[cleardirect]

Hang on a minute.

40. Therefore, USAPA is entitled to entry of an order declaring that Defendant
improperly interfered with the Bankruptcy Court’s jurisdiction and mandate by announcing its
intention to file an action.

As the new bargaining representative, USAPA took the position that it was not bound by the Nicolau
Award, was free to propose and negotiate with US Airways concerning an integrated seniority
list other than the Nicolau Award, and in fact proposed a seniority system based on date of hire
with significant conditions and restrictions designed to protect the premerger career expectations
of both the former US Airways and the former America West pilots.

So in the world of usapa the act of announcing the intent to file is enough harm and makes the case ripe. Yet the actual harm of not using the Nicolau and handing over a DOH list to the company is not ripe.

Hypocrites to the end.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I understand the part about USAPA remaining in place until the SLI is in place, Not sure about the JCBA. USAPA would have to voluntarily submit to such a process and the west would be under pressure from APA to participate. APA has already indicated their preference for a non-DOH integration. I hope we don't ignore them like we did Nicolau.

APA has NOT indicated their preference. Lets read what Wilson "actually"said. He certainly did NOT indicate a ratio method, but in any case, he very well understands the pitfalls of arbitration. I do not believe its a direction they wish to go.

"Many of you are concerned that, considering history, the outcome will be a “date-of-hire” seniority list that harms your career expectations. You can be sure that your leadership will determine the position that will best reflect the American Airlines pilots’ interests, and in that regard, a three-person arbitration panel should help to ensure a fair and balanced outcome. The APA Board of Directors has appointed a Seniority Integration Committee, supported by experienced counsel, and it is ready to carefully analyze the impact of the possible seniority integration methods in the specific circumstances of this case, including date-of-hire, length of service and ratio or other methods. Your APA Board of Directors will direct the Seniority Integration Committee to develop positions that best reflect our interests and career expectations.

Bear in mind that date-of-hire is not the only way to integrate seniority lists, and in recent years has not even been a common method. The last arbitrated date-of-hire integrated seniority list arose out of the 1986 Northwest/Republic merger. In that case, the arbitrator found that the date-of-hire list could be fair and equitable only with 20-year fences between the two pilot groups. The result was 20 years of arbitrated disputes over what the award meant and how it applied. It was, therefore, generally considered to have been an operational disaster. Since the Northwest/Republic arbitration, the paradigm has shifted in favor of integrated lists based on ratios reflecting the number of jobs and other equities “brought to the merger” by each group, with fences applied for as long as necessary to keep the operation fair until the integrated list can operate fairly by itself. Career expectations at each carrier along with fleet disposition and future delivery schedules are among the important factors in constructing such a list. While each merger and subsequent seniority integration is unique in its own way, the recent integrations at Delta/Northwest and soon-to-be United/Continental illustrate this decision-making methodology.

By now you should also understand that those things that make a merger with US Airways especially compelling from a business perspective (including strong, viable hubs and the near-complete lack of route overlap between the two route networks) also make this merger more attractive from a pilot’s perspective."

 

[end_of_alpa]

Yep, the Leonidas Swamp will be drained very nicely.

It's about time.

 

[traderjake]

APA has NOT indicated their preference. Lets read what Wilson "actually"said. He certainly did NOT indicate a ratio method, but in any case, he very well understands the pitfalls of arbitration. I do not believe its a direction they wish to go.

"The last arbitrated date-of-hire integrated seniority list arose out of the 1986 Northwest/Republic merger. In that case, the arbitrator found that the date-of-hire list could be fair and equitable only with 20-year fences between the two pilot groups. The result was 20 years of arbitrated disputes over what the award meant and how it applied. It was, therefore, generally considered to have been an operational disaster. Since the Northwest/Republic arbitration, the paradigm has shifted in favor of integrated lists based on ratios reflecting the number of jobs and other equities “brought to the merger” by each group, with fences applied for as long as necessary to keep the operation fair until the integrated list can operate fairly by itself. Career expectations at each carrier along with fleet disposition and future delivery schedules are among the important factors in constructing such a list. While each merger and subsequent seniority integration is unique in its own way, the recent integrations at Delta/Northwest and soon-to-be United/Continental illustrate this decision-making methodology."

Keep trying to convince yourself that APA will entertain DOH.

 

[Bill Brasky]

"The last arbitrated date-of-hire integrated seniority list arose out of the 1986 Northwest/Republic merger. In that case, the arbitrator found that the date-of-hire list could be fair and equitable only with 20-year fences between the two pilot groups. The result was 20 years of arbitrated disputes over what the award meant and how it applied. It was, therefore, generally considered to have been an operational disaster. Since the Northwest/Republic arbitration, the paradigm has shifted in favor of integrated lists based on ratios reflecting the number of jobs and other equities “brought to the merger” by each group, with fences applied for as long as necessary to keep the operation fair until the integrated list can operate fairly by itself. Career expectations at each carrier along with fleet disposition and future delivery schedules are among the important factors in constructing such a list. While each merger and subsequent seniority integration is unique in its own way, the recent integrations at Delta/Northwest and soon-to-be United/Continental illustrate this decision-making methodology."

Keep trying to convince yourself that APA will entertain DOH.

The conclusion I make is not that DOH was the problem, but rather the length of the fences. The least disruptive merger I've been a party to on this property was the PSA/USAir merger, which went straight DOH. The next was the PI/U merger, same thing. No operational issues whatsoever, except, of course, the seriously bad management of the company as a whole. The problem is when one of the groups is rewarded with a sense of entitlement by the arbitrator, either with fences or method of merge. Everyone on both sides of the merger worked hard to get where they are, and giving one group an advantage over the other for some percieved "career expectations", which we all by now realize are a farce, is what causes the problems.

There are some APA folks screaming that DOH is unfair, but what would they say if this were to go to an arbitrator that ruled that since they were acquired during a bankruptcy proceeding that they had less "career expectations" than the other group? I'm not saying that is what will happen, but we all know that it could. They would be screaming for DOH in that case.

There is only one real way to combine groups that will provide a fair, honest and understandable merge, and that is some kind of formula based on DOH or LOS with fences of short length (like, 5 years or less) to allow the operation to stabilize. They should get full credit for their contributions to the company, and we should get full credit for ours. The attrition we bring makes up for any perceived issue of more senior employees.

 

[Beancounter]

"That is basically promising to break the law."...? Really? Which law would that be?

I'll give you a hint, it's also one of the ten commandments

Bean

 

[traderjake]

There is only one real way to combine groups that will provide a fair, honest and understandable merge, and that is some kind of formula based on DOH or LOS with fences of short length (like, 5 years or less) to allow the operation to stabilize.

That's about the stupidest thing you've said to date.

 

[Beancounter]

There is only one real way to combine groups that will provide a fair, honest and understandable merge, and that is some kind of formula based on DOH or LOS with fences of short length (like, 5 years or less) to allow the operation to stabilize.

Hahahahahahahah. You're almost as funny as Claxon. There's only one sure way to do this and it's to put me at the top of the list, just ignore the fact i brought nothing to the first merger. Yeeaahhh, ookay, i'll get right back to you with the lottery ticket you didn't even buy.

Bean

 

[Bill Brasky]

That's about the stupidest thing you've said to date.

You must be a really lonely person. We all know that it's all about YOU. What an ass.

Nobody can have an opinion unless it agrees with yours.

 

[Beancounter]

We all know that it's all about YOU.

Pot meet kettle.

Bean

 

[Bill Brasky]

Hahahahahahahah. You're almost as funny as Claxon. There's only one sure way to do this and it's to put me at the top of the list, just ignore the fact i brought nothing to the first merger. Yeeaahhh, ookay, i'll get right back to you with the lottery ticket you didn't even buy.

Bean

Dude, I'm right where I intend to stay. I can't make any more money than I'm already making. It's the west scabbies that want a lottery ticket. I'm not going anywhere.

Your Nic dream is dead and gone.

 

[EastUS1]

.... just ignore the fact i brought nothing to the first merger.

While you "brought" exactly what, other than yourself? What possible value can you assert that holds, other than that which was previously established through your work performed and your, gasp! DOH/longevity? Please spare us all any nonsensical rants about "expectations" here.