Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[GuntherA320]

you will not get your do-over..... the hammer will come down once and for all. Mark my words.

If I went back and looked at posts from 4 years ago, I'm sure i could find a few hundred similar posts. We are patiently waiting.....

 

[Hate2fly]

The Westies couldn't get it done with Wake. Wake got spanked by the 9th. Silver gives it the old college try. She can't get it done. Just read document 175 and that will clear up USAPA's position. Wake said it best "clean slate". It must have killed him to write that. The west pilots have been led down the black hole by the army.

Hate

 

[nevergiveup]

So this is the face of USAPA's desperation. Avoid arbitration at all cost just to save face and say the Nicolau Award was not used. Unbelievably desperate, to basically give the APA whatever they want to "protect their interests" because you know that going to arbitration will result in the Nic being merged with APA's list.

Well let me save you a few brain cells. It won't matter either way. All roads lead to the Nicolau award for you and I. Negotiated, arbitrated, or otherwise, through acceptance by the APA or through court injunction and intervention, you will not get your do-over. Just hold your breath until the merger is actually approved and has cleared the governments hurdles. Then the hammer will come down once and for all. Mark my words.

Frontier, Spirit, Mesa, Republic,......pick one.

 

[cactusboy53]

In the previous post that talks about my return and subsequent rise to my current position, I was responding to Res Judicata's post about how much money East pilots have wasted. In my case, it was not a waste of money. In fact, I'd say that USAPA has only cost me about $2000 (All Tax deductible) more than ALPA over the last 5 years. I would say that is a much better scenario than being furloughed under the Nicolau award. I'm sorry that you took it as bragging. It was merely stating the facts of what has happened. I told you 5 years ago that this is what would happen. No secret there. I wish we could have come together years ago and sorted this out, but that didn't happen. As you say, "there is nothing to sort our or negotiate". So we have what we have and it will be what it will be. If you're sore over how things turned out, maybe someone should have listened 5 or 6 years ago. I think we could have come to an amicable solution back then. I realize that it is way to late now to go any other way but litigation, but it didn't have to be that way. I'm sure 5 years ago you thought i was crazy when I said this would take 7 or 8 years to settle. But here we are.....5 years later.....still waiting.

Again, USAPA made us one pilot group by wining the collective bargaining agent. There is no one (two, three, etc.) pilot(s) that can negotiate away from a concluded binding arbitration for the West. It USAPA's duty to fairly represent all pilots of this body. Starting up a union with DOH as the baseline of seniority after the fact of a final and binding award will not pass that bar (and they have been told so by a couple of Federal Judges).

I'm not sore. I am truly disappointed. There are many east pilots (like yourself) that I remain cordial. I'm pleased to go out and enjoy a meal and a beverage. With that said, It disappoints me that any human being with cognitive ability can actually see that the path USAPA has taken as acceptable.

I tell people that it's a lot like making an agreement to buy a car, only to have the other party return and seek more money after the transaction has taken place.

A respected senior arbitrator made a determination of seniority based on testimony of both sides. Both sides agreed to the process and the outcome. It's pretty simple. As a direct result of the larger group balking at the result, we have collectively spent $13+ million in legal expenses. We have all lost income, contract improvements and time off...never to be recovered.

It just amazes me that there are pilots out there that think all these actions (not to mention the deliberate persecution of our pilots by USAPA) is an acceptable path. I remain utterly disappointed in the USAPA supporter group as a whole.

 

[Claxon]

Wait for the POR. The merger hasn't cleared the requisite legal obstacles yet. As soon as it does, the hammer is coming down. I promise. Keep your panties on.

The armchair brain trust of Leonidas. Mitch Vaselino, Mark Doyal, Ferguson, Koontz. Kevin Horner. Leading Leonidas into another 9th smack down. Marty Harper sucks the life out of the western pilots. Giving them just enough rope to get hung every time. Name one win. You have been #### slapped every attempt. The Nic got deep sixed ages ago. Face reality boys, you know it got slammed by the Federal Court.
USAPA s proposal is what it wants to propose. And the Federal Court in SF backed it. All you can do is sue. And you don't fare we'll in that venue as we ave seen time after time.

 

[GuntherA320]

I tell people that it's a lot like making an agreement to buy a car, only to have the other party return and seek more money after the transaction has taken place.

The problem with your example is that the transaction never took place (JCBA). If it had....you'd have the Nic right now. Your example is more like agreeing to buy a car (draw up the paperwork), and then showing up the next day to pick it up and sign the paperwork, only to discover that several things were different than what you thought you had agreed to. Since it was never signed, does that mean you bought it? Just because you agree to buy a car, it's hasn't been bought until the bottom line has been signed and the money has changes hands. I'm sure that few pilots out West thought we had the numbers or the fortitude to walk away from the deal. I'm sure few out West thought this was what they were getting into when they let the US pilots walk away.

We were fully aware of how this would go down. I'm not saying you will never, ever get the NIc. But if you manage to get everything to go your way, I'm saying by the time you do.....it won't matter anymore. 400 West F/O's scattered through the AA and US system 3 years from now with retirements taking place will hardly be a blip. That's a worst case scenario for most of us on the East.

 

[fatherabraham]

Again, USAPA made us one pilot group by wining the collective bargaining agent. There is no one (two, three, etc.) pilot(s) that can negotiate away from a concluded binding arbitration for the West. It USAPA's duty to fairly represent all pilots of this body. Starting up a union with DOH as the baseline of seniority after the fact of a final and binding award will not pass that bar (and they have been told so by a couple of Federal Judges).

I'm not sore. I am truly disappointed. There are many east pilots (like yourself) that I remain cordial. I'm pleased to go out and enjoy a meal and a beverage. With that said, It disappoints me that any human being with cognitive ability can actually see that the path USAPA has taken as acceptable.

I tell people that it's a lot like making an agreement to buy a car, only to have the other party return and seek more money after the transaction has taken place.

A respected senior arbitrator made a determination of seniority based on testimony of both sides. Both sides agreed to the process and the outcome. It's pretty simple. As a direct result of the larger group balking at the result, we have collectively spent $13+ million in legal expenses. We have all lost income, contract improvements and time off...never to be recovered.

It just amazes me that there are pilots out there that think all these actions (not to mention the deliberate persecution of our pilots by USAPA) is an acceptable path. I remain utterly disappointed in the USAPA supporter group as a whole.

CB,

Dude, your adnauseam " disappointment " comments are quite amusing.

Do you really, after all these years think any Eastie gives one sh!t how you feel ?
Next time I speak with a rep of mine I will ask if you presented yourself in like mannor at board meetings.

Methinks your comrade AFO's will soon turn on their reps once it sinks in that they voted away their attempted futile seniority theft fight. BTW....Phl voted 45% against the mou vs 98% in favor for your members.

I know I'm being a bit harsh ( not in character ) , but as a rep you're accountability is high.

FA

 

[EastUS1]

With that said, It disappoints me that any human being with cognitive ability can actually see that the path USAPA has taken as acceptable.

It's always both amazed and disappointed me that even so much as carbon-based life form(s) could ever conceive of magically making any 3-month-newhire "senior" to another person with over 16 years of continuous, working service....Not to mention going so far as to then fantasize some/ANY degree of "righteousness" in seeking such an insane obscenity. "We stand on legal, ethical & moral high ground." Umm....Seriously?.....That was actually said with a straight face? Newhire to his/her nic "junior": "I stand on legal, ethical & moral high ground"..."just ask me"..."against which all you've got to stand on is 16+ years of honest work, so get outta' tha' way and gimme my Nic!....Waah!"

"...can actually see that the path USAPA has taken as acceptable."...? Really? Could/can you not honestly understand or even imagine where most of us just might have found a few small "ethical and moral" problems with indugling the nic obscenity at the expense of junior coworkers of many years? Where might I have even conceivably found any "ethical and moral" basis by which I could have EVER told the 16+ plus year coworker that I was cheerfully voting in favor of permanently displacing him with a 3 month new hire?

Perhaps much more honestly and accurately stated is your previous: "It may take to my 64th birthday, but I will not give away that seniority arbitration. Period."

 

[nevergiveup]

Again, USAPA made us one pilot group by wining the collective bargaining agent. There is no one (two, three, etc.) pilot(s) that can negotiate away from a concluded binding arbitration for the West. It USAPA's duty to fairly represent all pilots of this body. Starting up a union with DOH as the baseline of seniority after the fact of a final and binding award will not pass that bar (and they have been told so by a couple of Federal Judges).

I'm not sore. I am truly disappointed. There are many east pilots (like yourself) that I remain cordial. I'm pleased to go out and enjoy a meal and a beverage. With that said, It disappoints me that any human being with cognitive ability can actually see that the path USAPA has taken as acceptable.

I tell people that it's a lot like making an agreement to buy a car, only to have the other party return and seek more money after the transaction has taken place.

A respected senior arbitrator made a determination of seniority based on testimony of both sides. Both sides agreed to the process and the outcome. It's pretty simple. As a direct result of the larger group balking at the result, we have collectively spent $13+ million in legal expenses. We have all lost income, contract improvements and time off...never to be recovered.

It just amazes me that there are pilots out there that think all these actions (not to mention the deliberate persecution of our pilots by USAPA) is an acceptable path. I remain utterly disappointed in the USAPA supporter group as a whole.

The Nic prevented us all from getting a contract. Now I don't think it can ever be legally used. Mr. Parker knows what the west will try to do, but he also seems quite confident in his plan. If I were a west pilot, I would be happy with a three way. If the west believes arbitration is fair, as they did with the NIC, then they should have no problem with round 2, unless they think they got a windfall in round 1.

 

[EastUS1]

If the west believes arbitration is fair, as they did with the NIC, then they should have no problem with round 2, unless they think they got a windfall in round 1.

It seems that even supposed beliefs in the "ethical and moral" sanctity of relative positioning are indeed a bit relative in nature.....

 

[Claxon]

They wonder why they're considered scabs...

Don' t kid yourself. Pilots throughout the industry know the facts. Your group is rife with scabs. Do you want the list posted again? I am happy to oblige.

 

[cynic]

The Nic prevented us all from getting a contract. Now I don't think it can ever be legally used. Mr. Parker knows what the west will try to do, but he also seems quite confident in his plan. If I were a west pilot, I would be happy with a three way. If the west believes arbitration is fair, as they did with the NIC, then they should have no problem with round 2, unless they think they got a windfall in round 1.

Actually, refusal to accept the result of a binding arbitration has been why there has not been a new contract, not the arbitration award itself. Effectively, we have also seen a fence since the merger, 8 years now? I am not a West pilot, but I think that they should make out fairly well if they were permitted to make their own case in a three way integration. I have a sneaking suspicion that USAPA will try to find a way to abuse their authority one final time before this is all said and done.

 

[Bill Brasky]

The Nic prevented us all from getting a contract. Now I don't think it can ever be legally used. Mr. Parker knows what the west will try to do, but he also seems quite confident in his plan. If I were a west pilot, I would be happy with a three way. If the west believes arbitration is fair, as they did with the NIC, then they should have no problem with round 2, unless they think they got a windfall in round 1.

The problem is, there can't legally be a 3 way. There are only 2 unions here, and you are only going to get to present 2 lists. I don't think (this situation hasn't happened before, so I could be wrong, but I doubt it) that a union can just submit any number of lists. If this goes to arbitration, I expect that it would go as Mr. Szymanski said at the roadshow, and USAPA would submit a DOH list, in accordance with the C&BLs.

 

[Claxon]

The problem is, there can't legally be a 3 way. There are only 2 unions here, and you are only going to get to present 2 lists. I don't think (this situation hasn't happened before, so I could be wrong, but I doubt it) that a union can just submit any number of lists. If this goes to arbitration, I expect that it would go as Mr. Szymanski said at the roadshow, and USAPA would submit a DOH list, in accordance with the C&BLs.

There will be no three way, unless USAPA wants one.

 

[Claxon]

Actually, refusal to accept the result of a binding arbitration has been why there has not been a new contract, not the arbitration award itself. Effectively, we have also seen a fence since the merger, 8 years now? I am not a West pilot, but I think that they should make out fairly well if they were permitted to make their own case in a three way integration. I have a sneaking suspicion that USAPA will try to find a way to abuse their authority one final time before this is all said and done.

How do you refuse to accept BINDING ARBITRATION? Simple. When it is not binding.