Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Beancounter]

Bean,

I will put you down for the $1000 bet.

Have you gotten your medical back yet?

Did you see me getting told to STFU on that site? I'm Beancounter on the OTHER AWA board and HPilot on another. I'd change Hpilot to Beancounter, but can't. Thanks for the concern though.

Bean

 

[Beancounter]

If APA wants the nIc, then expect arbitration.

Yeah, or if they don't like your DOH dream. Don't worry you can suggest something like relative or a ratio..... oh wait, DOH is in the constitution.......................nevermind.

Bean

 

[Portly Dorman]

And those left permently fence out....

...most of whom will be long gone before fences expire. I imagine they will be aware of that fact, too.

...most of whom will be long gone before fences expire. I imagine they will be aware of that fact, too.

 

[Beancounter]

Did you see me getting told to STFU on that site? I'm Beancounter on the OTHER AWA board and HPilot on another. I'd change Hpilot to Beancounter, but can't. Thanks for the concern though.

Bean

P.S. I'm not Beancntr, Bean, HPpilot or HPilot, that's someone else.

 

[nycbusdriver]

And those left permently fence out....

Without even the POR signed, I can confidently say that I am permanently fenced out of JFK and the 777 left seat (where my DOH contemporaries...probably most are junior to me... at AA sit.)

Do I care? No. Have at it guys. Just don't go sniffing around PHL and we will get along just fine.

 

[cactusboy53]

....

I said almost 5 years ago that cooler heads need to prevail and both sides needed to come together and work something out. Unfortunately, too many on your side said Nic or nothing. That left us nowhere to go but USAPA. Funny thing is, you might have had your Nic right now if you had agreed to a 5 year fence. (I know, I know. It was the principle of the matter or integrity, or something). You'd have been making more for the last 5 years, would have still had your union (no USAPA!!!), and you would not have spent 4 million in legal bills to Marty Harper. But there was no compromise. (I know, I know. The Nic was the compromise). Instead you are still trying to fight and hope that you get what you want. Good luck is all that I will say. You are fighting an uphill battle.

Lets just say you get the Nic after a protracted court battle. That means another 3 or 4 years before you get what you're fighting for. That's 3 or 4 more years of PHX stagnation. Meanwhile 99' hires will be upgrading to Captain on the A320 and new hires will be taking A330 F/O slots. Think you'll get the Nic sooner than that? I will wager $1000 that even if (a big if) you win (nic unaltered), it will be 3 more years (march 2016) before you see it. By then it won't matter anymore. I absolutely believe in your rights to sue. I just wouldn't count my chickens before they hatch.

Think APA is on your side? Here are a few samples of posts from C&R (the APA message board)....


Just something to think about.

Actually I remember you saying that "the courts will decide". That is what this "cooler head" is now waiting for. While I don't have a problem with "cooler heads", I do have a problem returning to the table and asking us to negotiate away from an agreed upon process. The Nicolau seniority list is the final product of that process. The company paid both ALPA bodies for that process, and the former collective bargaining agent delivered the list to Doug Parker. Doug Parker accepted the list and sent out a letter stating that it fell within the confines of the merger tenets. The ONLY reason that we have gone without a contract (let alone a second post merger contract like Delta), is that the east pilots pulled away from the joint collective bargaining table at the order of the AAA MEC. The only reason that we are now USAPA is because a small tribe of ALPA-haters put together a new agent with promises that it has yet to keep.

I don't mind paying Marty for his sound legal advise. There again we would be asked to again return to the table and negotiate away from the final and binding award. There was NO LEGAL vehicle tor do this. Then you would have asked for another 5 years, and another 5 years, and another 5 years (sound familiar? NWAL / Republic).

I would make the same argument that you did above: Had you accepted the Nicolau list, we would most certainly be on a second post-merger contract. You would have at least $175,000.00 more in your wallet, more time off, & a better contract for quality of life. Further, we would have been unrestricted in developing and growing this airline and really making decent profit sharing checks (had we all worked together and kept our word). We (the West Class) have been forced to protect ourselves against a larger group. We are keeping our word for the agreed upon process and trying to force you (and any other interested parties) to do the same.

I understand why you feel that you have spent good money to return to work from furlough after the merger took place. The problem that I have is that we (the West Class) are being forced to pay for your side and to protect our side. If this were truly a fair representation, you guys would fund the DOH position just like you are funding the pension investigation (IMHO).

Regarding quotes from APA (and other airline pilots), we could probably pull out snipits one-for-one all day long. The bottom line is that their opinion, Parker's opinion, Kirby's opinion, etc. don't matter. The opinion of the arbitrator(s) matter and the opinion(s) of the judges matter (all of the legal opinions ENTIRELY).

This won't last years. It will be much faster than that. "We" are now the minority. If I was USAPA, I would be A LOT more concerned about protecting ALL US Airways pilots going forward rather than spending all that time & $$ trying to sink the Nic.

 

[Beancounter]

Bean,

I will put you down for the $1000 bet.

Have you gotten your medical back yet?

Is the $1000 bet for DOH or the NIC (yea or nay)? After having to pay for a Master in Accountancy program do you think I can bet $1000? Or how about the tens of thousands in medical bills when the company turned off the insurance and USAPA said piss off westie? Thank goodness for the CP's office, they got it fixed. It did take a nice bite out of savings though. Besides I'm the kind of guy that sits there on a Vegas overnight and watches the captain blow $500, while I drink a beer. I think I gambled $5.00 that night.

Bean

 

[GuntherA320]

Is the $1000 bet for DOH or the NIC (yea or nay)?

Bean

The $1000 bet is that the AWA pilots will have the "Nic" (unaltered and the company using it) before March 1st, 2016. I say you won't.

 

[GuntherA320]

Actually I remember you saying that "the courts will decide". That is what this "cooler head" is now waiting for. While I don't have a problem with "cooler heads", I do have a problem returning to the table and asking us to negotiate away from an agreed upon process.

Regarding quotes from APA (and other airline pilots), we could probably pull out snipits one-for-one all day long. The bottom line is that their opinion, Parker's opinion, Kirby's opinion, etc. don't matter. The opinion of the arbitrator(s) matter and the opinion(s) of the judges matter (all of the legal opinions ENTIRELY).

This won't last years. It will be much faster than that. "We" are now the minority. If I was USAPA, I would be A LOT more concerned about protecting ALL US Airways pilots going forward rather than spending all that time & $$ trying to sink the Nic.

I remember saying, "Then the courts will decide". But I said that in response to your "We will not negotiate". I told you then that it would take 7 or 8 years before this came to conclusion. I appear to be on track with that estimate. When ( I say when, not if) Leonidas files suit, it will add another year or two to the timeline that we have set forth for an SLI. I know you're hoping that APA will be the only union by that point. You're hoping that the APA will just agree with you to avoid liability, but if you think it's going to be that simple, i think you're in for a surprise. I wouldn't expect a speedy resolution to this inside of the US legal system.

 

[mrbreeze]

Yesterday, I saw a regional jet in Philly with the new AA paint scheme. It actually looks better on the aircraft than I expected.
breeze

 

[Beancounter]

I remember saying, "Then the courts will decide". But I said that in response to your "We will not negotiate". I told you then that it would take 7 or 8 years before this came to conclusion. I appear to be on track with that estimate. When ( I say when, not if) Leonidas files suit, it will add another year or two to the timeline that we have set forth for an SLI. I know you're hoping that APA will be the only union by that point. You're hoping that the APA will just agree with you to avoid liability, but if you think it's going to be that simple, i think you're in for a surprise.

'
When did I say, "We will not negotiate?" Asking seriously. Was it in reference to the West as a whole? You're right I won't, I just don't remember posting it. I'm not hoping, because it most likely won't effect me. I think you're dreaming if you think the APA will give you DOH with restrictions to stay out of arbitration. You are probaly in the know better than me, but I do know a couple people there in the union. I was gone after the arbitration, but prior to USAPA (we were still ALPA), so they know I'm a neutral when I talk to them.

You said I'm hoping the APA will be the union by that point. I thought I posted the seniority would be in a couple years, not the four years one of the jihadist easties had posted. Are you confusing me with another poster. I'm pretty sure you have the right Bean, there can't be that many out there in my same situation, but I'm two of maybe three or four Beans on the aviation sites.

Bean

Ignore the above, I could have sworn that post was to me, not Cactus.

 

[GuntherA320]

'
When did I say, "We will not negotiate?" Asking seriously. Was it in reference to the West as a whole? You're right I won't, I just don't remember posting it. I'm not hoping, because it most likely won't effect me. I think you're dreaming if you think the APA will give you DOH with restrictions to stay out of arbitration. You are probaly in the know better than me, but I do know a couple people there in the union. I was gone after the arbitration, but prior to USAPA (we were still ALPA), so they know I'm a neutral when I talk to them.

You said I'm hoping the APA will be the union by that point. I thought I posted the seniority would be in a couple years, not the four years one of the jihadist easties had posted. Are you confusing me with another poster. I'm pretty sure you have the right Bean, there can't be that many out there in my same situation, but I'm two of maybe three or four Beans on the aviation sites.

Bean

Ignore the above, I could have sworn that post was to me, not Cactus.

No worries Bean!

 

[Beancounter]

The $1000 bet is that the AWA pilots will have the "Nic" (unaltered and the company using it) before March 1st, 2016. I say you won't.

I'd be carefull, you might lose some money there. Because, "unaltered," is in there I'd have to pass. It's not a sure bet, close, but not 100%

Bean

 

[Res Judicata]

The $1000 bet is that the AWA pilots will have the "Nic" (unaltered and the company using it) before March 1st, 2016. I say you won't.

I say you're going to see a court ordered bump and flush for every non nic position awarded after the POR.

 

[Beancounter]

I say you're going to see a court ordered bump and flush for every non nic position awarded after the POR.

Are we taking bets yet on when the POR is?

Bean