East MEC and Pilots are Wrong

[767jetz]

The award is unfair because it trashes the very thing we all live and breath by, and that is our seniority.

No, it hasn't. You still have your seniority. It is relative to where you were before the merger. It is relative to what you brought to the table.

Now a three year pilot suddenly and with one misquided decision, has the seniority of a nineteen year pilot.

No, he doesn't. He still has the same relative seniority that he brought to the table, and the 19 year guys still has the same relative seniority he brought to the table. Whatever either number is, it buys him the same position he had before.

I understand that seniority, as a legal term, does not translate across company lines - as in the case of a merger.

Exactly. And until there is a national seniority list with equal pay and position for equal time served, regardless of which uniform you wear, then it will remain as it is. DOH is irrelevant across company lines. Otherwise you could quit one airline at 20 years and hire on somewhere else with 20 years. We all know and accept that it just doesn't work that way.

The airline pilot profession has always used, as a bedrock principle, the concept that those who have been here longer, those who have paid their dues, those who were here before you, get to go ahead.

Of course. Within your company that is certainly how it works. Always has. I think where you and many of the like-minded East pilots go astray is when it comes to the "paid your dues" part. No one argues that pilots at USAir had a tough ride through the years. It is almost unthinkable to have 20 year pilots on furlough. TWA was another tragedy (I know that first hand having worked there. So I can empathize.)

Whether you interviewed and accepted a job at USAir, Piedmont, or any of the other airlines that made up USAirways, it was a choice. It didn't happen through divine intervention, luck, or winning a lottery. Staying there through the tough times was a choice. You have a captain who was hired at UAL and chose instead to work for USAir. At UAL we had a 10 year Airbus captain who chose to quit to go to work for Jet Blue during our bankrupcy. These are all choices.

Every one of us has paid our dues in one form or another, whether it was slugging it out in the commuters, hauling checks at night, serving in the military, or working for now defunct airlines such as Eastern or TWA. But you can not quantify your suffering over someone else's and say that now that we are merged I am entitled to make up for the fruits I did not enjoy in my career, due to my choices, that you have enjoyed in your career due to your choices. That would truly be unfair. That is what DOH does.

If you end up in a position close to where you were before (block holder, reserve, furloughed, captain, first officer, 737, A330, whatever) then it was a fair and equitable award. The only thing I see as having gone against you is possibly the attrition. But this is the fault of your MEC for not arguing for some consideration to this without attaching DOH to it. And for that your MEC failed you. But if age 60 is changed, this issue goes away for the most part as well.

 

[Piedmont1984]

No, it hasn't. You still have your seniority. It is relative to where you were before the merger. It is relative to what you brought to the table.
No, he doesn't. He still has the same relative seniority that he brought to the table, and the 19 year guys still has the same relative seniority he brought to the table. Whatever either number is, it buys him the same position he had before.
Exactly. And until there is a national seniority list with equal pay and position for equal time served, regardless of which uniform you wear, then it will remain as it is. DOH is irrelevant across company lines. Otherwise you could quit one airline at 20 years and hire on somewhere else with 20 years. We all know and accept that it just doesn't work that way.
Of course. Within your company that is certainly how it works. Always has. I think where you and many of the like-minded East pilots go astray is when it comes to the "paid your dues" part. No one argues that pilots at USAir had a tough ride through the years. It is almost unthinkable to have 20 year pilots on furlough. TWA was another tragedy (I know that first hand having worked there. So I can empathize.)

Whether you interviewed and accepted a job at USAir, Piedmont, or any of the other airlines that made up USAirways, it was a choice. It didn't happen through divine intervention, luck, or winning a lottery. Staying there through the tough times was a choice. You have a captain who was hired at UAL and chose instead to work for USAir. At UAL we had a 10 year Airbus captain who chose to quit to go to work for Jet Blue during our bankrupcy. These are all choices.

Every one of us has paid our dues in one form or another, whether it was slugging it out in the commuters, hauling checks at night, serving in the military, or working for now defunct airlines such as Eastern or TWA. But you can not quantify your suffering over someone else's and say that now that we are merged I am entitled to make up for the fruits I did not enjoy in my career, due to my choices, that you have enjoyed in your career due to your choices. That would truly be unfair. That is what DOH does.

If you end up in a position close to where you were before (block holder, reserve, furloughed, captain, first officer, 737, A330, whatever) then it was a fair and equitable award. The only thing I see as having gone against you is possibly the attrition. But this is the fault of your MEC for not arguing for some consideration to this without attaching DOH to it. And for that your MEC failed you. But if age 60 is changed, this issue goes away for the most part as well.

Be honest now. I don't know what your position is, but pretend you are a first officer. What is the most valuable thing your seniority can get for you. Some will say schedule, some will say equipment. But the vast majority will say money... as in the opportunity to upgrade to captain, as in four stripes. That is why most of us joined this profession.

The number one F/O on our list, pre Nicolau, who would have been the next captain, having served twenty or so years, has now been slotted behind hundreds of your pilots, many who have had only a fraction of his time in service.

Now put yourself in his shoes and tell me he has not lost anything - and that his three or four hundred counterparts at AWA have not gained anything.


This guy just lost his captaincy, period. He has no time to make it up. He doesn't have another twenty years left, like the guys who were slotted ahead of him.

Now tell him to his face that he just needs to be reasonable and suck it up.

And call me when you do - I would love to be there to watch.

 

[b737fo]

The number one F/O on our list, pre Nicolau, who would have been the next captain, having served twenty or so years, has now been slotted behind hundreds of your pilots, many who have had only a fraction of his time in service.

The hundreds of pilots inserted above him would almost all be captains who brought captain flying jobs that did not exist before the merger. He was the number one F/O without the merger and he is probably very close to still being the number one F/O on the combined list. That would appear to be no windfall for him in particular.

 

[prechilill]

The number one F/O on our list, pre Nicolau, ...

Is still the number one F/O on your list

 

[Piedmont1984]

The hundreds of pilots inserted above him would almost all be captains who brought captain flying jobs that did not exist before the merger. He was the number one F/O without the merger and he is probably very close to still being the number one F/O on the combined list. That would appear to be no windfall for him in particular.

I will wager you that he would say, keep your captain jobs, stick a fence between us and I'll take my upgrade chances here.

 

[b737fo]

I would rather keep my captain jobs but Parker changed that in 2005.

 

[prechilill]

No, it hasn't. You still have your seniority. It is relative to where you were before the merger. It is relative to what you brought to the table.
No, he doesn't. He still has the same relative seniority that he brought to the table, and the 19 year guys still has the same relative seniority he brought to the table. Whatever either number is, it buys him the same position he had before.
DOH is irrelevant across company lines.
Staying there through the tough times was a choice. You have a captain who was hired at UAL and chose instead to work for USAir. At UAL we had a 10 year Airbus captain who chose to quit to go to work for Jet Blue during our bankrupcy. These are all choices.

Every one of us has paid our dues in one form or another, whether it was slugging it out in the commuters, hauling checks at night, serving in the military, or working for now defunct airlines such as Eastern or TWA. But you can not quantify your suffering over someone else's and say that now that we are merged I am entitled to make up for the fruits I did not enjoy in my career, due to my choices, that you have enjoyed in your career due to your choices. That would truly be unfair. That is what DOH does.

If you end up in a position close to where you were before (block holder, reserve, furloughed, captain, first officer, 737, A330, whatever) then it was a fair and equitable award. The only thing I see as having gone against you is possibly the attrition. But this is the fault of your MEC for not arguing for some consideration to this without attaching DOH to it. And for that your MEC failed you. But if age 60 is changed, this issue goes away for the most part as well.

Outstanding post. I think your comments 767jetz are probably the opinions shared by most major airline pilots. Well said!

 

[Barberpole]

The award is unfair because it trashes the very thing we all live and breath by, and that is our seniority. It is an asset you can't cheat to acquire, there are no shortcuts. You earn it one day at at time. That is until now. Now a three year pilot suddenly and with one misquided decision, has the seniority of a nineteen year pilot.

You build up seniority over a period of many years, decades for most of us in the East, and then it is taken away.

I understand that seniority, as a legal term, does not translate across company lines - as in the case of a merger. But what it is based on certainly should, and that is longevity, time in service, date of hire, date of ALPA,
etc. etc. Pick your term, I don't care.

The airline pilot profession has always used, as a bedrock principle, the concept that those who have been here longer, those who have paid their dues, those who were here before you, get to go ahead. This system, for better or worse, is not a meritocracy. We move ahead by our seniority number and our seniority number is everything. Everything else - is smoke and mirrors.

So according to your misguided logic the only "FAIR" method would have been to staple 80% of our pilots below your most senior FURLOUGHED pilot. Yeah right....That seniority you built up day by day wouldn't have counted for much at Home Depot. AWA may have had impending cash crunches but AAA was on the way to liquidation without an out.

Consider where you were at two years ago. You are still in that position and your financial future it much brighter. You guys got one heck of a fair deal. Now the challenge is to learn to deal with it because there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

Be honest now. I don't know what your position is, but pretend you are a first officer. What is the most valuable thing your seniority can get for you. Some will say schedule, some will say equipment. But the vast majority will say money... as in the opportunity to upgrade to captain, as in four stripes. That is why most of us joined this profession.

The number one F/O on our list, pre Nicolau, who would have been the next captain, having served twenty or so years, has now been slotted behind hundreds of your pilots, many who have had only a fraction of his time in service.

Now put yourself in his shoes and tell me he has not lost anything - and that his three or four hundred counterparts at AWA have not gained anything.
This guy just lost his captaincy, period. He has no time to make it up. He doesn't have another twenty years left, like the guys who were slotted ahead of him.

Now tell him to his face that he just needs to be reasonable and suck it up.

And call me when you do - I would love to be there to watch.

what is going to keep your number 1 fo from upgrading with the next upgrade class? By the way our upgrades have virtually stopped since this merger was announced. All our resources have been sent back east.

 

[traderjake]

The number one F/O on our list, pre Nicolau, who would have been the next captain, having served twenty or so years, has now been slotted behind hundreds of your pilots, many who have had only a fraction of his time in service.

Length of service and seniority are not the same thing.

You are wrong. He still is the next captain. He got relative position with his equipment group.

 

[A320 Driver]

Length of service and seniority are not the same thing.

You are wrong. He still is the next captain. He got relative position with his equipment group.

Trader, I can't find fault with much you've stated in these posts so far. I spoke to a member of the Merger Committee over a year ago and he told me then after he showed everyone the charts and graphs that DOH would be DOA at arbitration, but they yielded to pressure from the MEC, who yielded to pressure from part of the pilot group, who yielded to pressure from a few very vocal individuals that couldn't give a damn about anyone but themselves. Now you have the MEC making promises to "fix" this problem, much like they promised to get DOH.

It's easy to buy into these promises and soon you forget about those you hurt in the process...until YOU suffer the hurt and cry FOUL in the loudest possible terms. There are parts of this award I do not agree with...others parts I do, but we would have all been better off if the MEC had left the Merger Committee alone as they were supposed to. Some MEC members tried to recall a member of the Merger Committee right on the verge of mediation. This bullying has cost the East pilot group dearly many times. I am sick of it. Even if ALPA were gotten rid of in favor of another union, the same talking heads would be running it. Wonder who they would blame if ALPA national were not around?

What a mess.

A320 Driver <_<

 

[Diesel8]

I have to say, as one that works for neither east nor west, that 767jetz is spot on with his comments. Relative seniority is fair, certainly more so than date of hire.

 

[skyflyr69]

You are so right. Bronner brought Lakefield out of retirement because of the value in US. Do we really think it was otherwise? Of course not. US AIRWAYS crackerjack team canvassed Wall St. to put the two together and wala!!

ATA did not want to go with AWA because of the speculative financials. AWA wasn't that secure as compared to what US brought to the table. AWA pilots got a GIFT!!!!!

And in todays chp 11 process great companies can land there. Its all about the lawyers and greedy Mgt. teams nothing else.

Career expectations is a nonsensical term inserted into merger policy when UAL, for their own self interest, took DOH out. In the Air Force we had a form on which you could articulate your career expectations, it was also known as a dream sheet.

Any one, in this industry, post 911, who says they have career expectations which exceed next Monday's bid sheet is deluding themselves.

And another thing. I am so sick of hearing the East was DOA. Parker, and a bunch of savy investors, came to the conclusion that we were worth a great deal. And in 2006, the profit that this company made came from this so called carcass.

 

[flytchick]

TraderJake and 767jetz have both been spot on since this whole thing began. Thank you both for your insightful input.

 

[oldcrow]

Trader, I can't find fault with much you've stated in these posts so far. I spoke to a member of the Merger Committee over a year ago and he told me then after he showed everyone the charts and graphs that DOH would be DOA at arbitration, but they yielded to pressure from the MEC, who yielded to pressure from part of the pilot group, who yielded to pressure from a few very vocal individuals that couldn't give a damn about anyone but themselves. Now you have the MEC making promises to "fix" this problem, much like they promised to get DOH.

This bullying has cost the East pilot group dearly many times. I am sick of it. Even if ALPA were gotten rid of in favor of another union, the same talking heads would be running it.

What a mess.

A320 Driver <_<

I've heard the exact same thing more than once over the past few days. Maybe east's biggest enemy is within, and I'm former east.

 

[phasersonstun2]

Every pilot I talk to outside of USAirways can see this for what it is... An attempted power grab for future consolidation by a miss-directed MEC. This award guarantees that any future mergers with the "Big Guys" will result in fair and equitable distribution of wealth, seniority, and flying based on career expectations and relative seniority.

Power grab? What power!

The East pilots were trying to preserve east jobs based on east pilot retirements. A reasonable and fair goal.

Granted, the east MEC did blow it. When Nicolau asked them to come back with a new stand other than DOH, the east MEC stated that they did not want to negotiate with themselves and are resubmitting their DOH request.

Truth is, if the east MEC backed off of DOH, the membership would have strung them up by their :blink: :blink: .

Nicolau could have given this ruling with a freeze on east base positions similar to the widebody flying, but he didn't.

Why?