ALPA Executive Board to hear US Airways East MEC request

[CactusFlyr]

Jim,

Save Dave from the west has zero pilots below him. If the list goes together he goes from zero to 1800 pilots under him. His relative position skyrockets at the east expense and he captures all attrition with no fences.

Furloughed pilots don't count. Jobs count.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,

The arbitator protected only enough slots to crew the widebodies, NOT the pilots actually flying them. So if you are a Widebody Captain (not one of the 517)and are displaced for whatever reason, you have no protection. Only the "First tier" pilots are protected and as they retire that protection retires with them. So, in a sense, the West most certainly did gain widebodies.

A320 Driver B)

You're right - the slots are protected, not named pilots except for the 500+ put at the top of the list. As long as there are enough of the 500+ on the property to keep the 161 capt slots filled, no HP pilot can bid those protected widebody captain slots until that fence comes down. I no longer have an East list so don't know how long it'll be before there aren't enough of the 500+ "top tier" pilots left to fill the protected captain slots.

Also, if not enough "top tier" pilots choose to fill those protected slots, the HP folks can fill those unbid, but that's the choice of the East "top tier" pilots. The award only sets those slots aside, not force anyone to bid them.

You see, unlike the majority of pilots from both sides, I've had a ringside seat when names were protected instead of slots. It's pretty easy to effectively eliminate that protection when it's attached to a name - I watched it happen time after time. The protected pilot gets displaced, goes on medical, goes to supervisory, etc, and the protection (and protected job) disappears. By protecting slots, instead of pilots, that doesn't happen. An East pilot leaves one of the protected slots, it's still reserved for a "top tier" East pilot if they choose to fill it. Even if an HP pilot fills one of those slots, then later gets displaced, the slot is still protected for a "top tier" pilot if they choose to fill it.

Jim

 

[A320 Driver]

You're right - the slots are protected, not named pilots except for the 500+ put at the top of the list. As long as there are enough of the 500+ on the property to keep the 161 capt slots filled, no HP pilot can bid those protected widebody captain slots until that fence comes down. I no longer have an East list so don't know how long it'll be before there aren't enough of the 500+ "top tier" pilots left to fill the protected captain slots.

Also, if not enough "top tier" pilots choose to fill those protected slots, the HP folks can fill those unbid, but that's the choice of the East "top tier" pilots. The award only sets those slots aside, not force anyone to bid them.

You see, unlike the majority of pilots from both sides, I've had a ringside seat when names were protected instead of slots. It's pretty easy to effectively eliminate that protection when it's attached to a name - I watched it happen time after time. The protected pilot gets displaced, goes on medical, goes to supervisory, etc, and the protection (and protected job) disappears. By protecting slots, instead of pilots, that doesn't happen. An East pilot leaves one of the protected slots, it's still reserved for a "top tier" East pilot if they choose to fill it. Even if an HP pilot fills one of those slots, then later gets displaced, the slot is still protected for a "top tier" pilot if they choose to fill it.

Jim

Hmmm, let me make sure we are talking about the same thing. The award gives "First Tier" status to 517 pilots, BY NAME. The number "517" is the number of widebody "slots" it takes to crew the widebodies if you take away non-flying pilots in that group. Problem is the A-330 Captain jobs for instance are now into the 800 range on the seniority list. These guys above 517 are not protected because they are not part of the "517". They do not move up into "First Tier" status as the 517 retire.

Also, 161 Captain slots is just for the A-330. You have to add in the B-767 slots also.

Hope you're doing well!

A320 Driver B)

 

[BoeingBoy]

Hmmm, let me make sure we are talking about the same thing. The award gives "First Tier" status to 517 pilots, BY NAME.

Yes, there are names attached to the top 517 East pilots. But the protection is for the top 517 East seniority numbers. If those had been different names (updating the lists to 5/1/07, for example), it would have still been the same number (517) but some of the names would be different. In other words, the names were protected because of the seniority number, not the seniority number protected because of the names.

As for protecting seniority ranges based on the junior East pilot flying widebodies, it could go either way except for one factor - the arbitrator's apparent emphasis on jobs brought to the table, not who held those jobs. He could have certainly given widebody protection to the pilots who held those jobs on a certain date, but what about those East pilots senior to the junior pilot holding a widebody job holder who hadn't bid the 330/767 - do you leave them out in the cold? And how do you integrate them into the list among the protected (preserving East seniority order) without giving them defacto protection by virtue of their seniority.

Alternatively, you put every East pilot from the junior widebody captain up at the top. This is complicated by two factors. One - the combined 757/767 bid position. Is the junior 757/767 bidholder a narrowbody (757) pilot and integrated with the West 757 pilots, or a widebody (767) pilot put above all West pilots?

Two - the onerous nature of the East reserve system. I suspect that the seniority difference between the junior blockholder and junior reserve is greater at East than about any other airline because of the reserve system, which the West pilots had no hand in or bear any fault for.

Of course, the arbitrator could have ignored #2, sorted out #1 somehow, and put the lists together based on who held jobs on the various equipment. But he would have done it for both sides. Every West pilot from the most junior 757 reserve up would have blended in with the East pilots from the most junior 757 reserve up to the most junior A330/767 reserve. Those toward the top of the East list would have probably been better off while those below them could have been worse off because the ratios used for blending at least A320/737 (and probably 757) and down pilots would have changed in favor of the West. So do you advantage the senior East to the disadvantage of the junior East?

Also, 161 Captain slots is just for the A-330. You have to add in the B-767 slots also.

Just going by the award since I have neither a current East list or bid award:

"The first 161 positions as Captains and the first 262 positions as First Officers on the A330 and B767...."

Add in the non-active within those top 463 active numbers and you get the 517. Or that's what the award says, at least.

And note that he gave the most senior East pilots protection based on widebody F/O jobs. Those senior F/O's with widebody jobs got no such protection - a gain for the senior with the junior paying the price, but an advantage for the senior by not protecting named pilots.

Hope you're doing well!

Great - still love retirement. I highly recommend it.

Jim

 

[FWAAA]

If you don’t fight back on this one unions will become a joke in history class and every corporate board room.

"Will become?" Where have you been? There's a lotta reasons that the only union membership growth for the last few decades has been among public sector employees; for the most part, private sector employees aren't gullible enough to think that paying dues to their "union" will somehow insulate them from free-market forces. And for the past few years now, airline employees have been treated to that lesson over and over and over again. Pensions terminated, pay and benefits slashed, seniority not respected, etc. How much worse would it have been if you had no union? Could it really have been much worse?

Public sector employees, on the other hand, typically work for monopolies (police, fire, education, transit, etc) and tend to have their way with local and state governments come contract time. As their employers are monopolies, there aren't any market forces at work. Not so among airlines.

What, exactly, can a union do for airline employees when the pie (available money) is shrinking and the pool of potential employees continues to expand mucn faster than the demand for their labor?

Sorry to break it to everyone, but your union leader "brothers" have played you. For many years. Imagine what those dues would be worth today if they had been invested in the S&P500 instead of paid to the thieves (your union).

 

[SoldWholeSale]

Not just UAL, but DAL, NWA, CAL, and ALK.

However, the UAL pilote are most immediately in danger of being gobbled up by the LCC doom maching.... At least the CAL neutral stayed at a hotel, and not at the arbitrators house.

Furloughed pilots don't count. Jobs count.

---What about the 300+ active pilots the arbitrator did not include???

ALL OR NONE!!

SH

 

[Junebug172]

So you see it as a 'windfall' also. Well done, I commend your honesty.

No bonehead, I don't

Read the post.
:down:

 

[700IAM]

"Will become?" Where have you been?


There's a lotta reasons that the only union membership growth for the last few decades has been among public sector employees; for the most part, private sector employees aren't gullible enough to think that paying dues to their "union" will somehow insulate them from free-market forces. And for the past few years now, airline employees have been treated to that lesson over and over and over again. Pensions terminated, pay and benefits slashed, seniority not respected, etc. How much worse would it have been if you had no union? Could it really have been much worse?

Public sector employees, on the other hand, typically work for monopolies (police, fire, education, transit, etc) and tend to have their way with local and state governments come contract time. As their employers are monopolies, there aren't any market forces at work. Not so among airlines.

What, exactly, can a union do for airline employees when the pie (available money) is shrinking and the pool of potential employees continues to expand mucn faster than the demand for their labor?

Sorry to break it to everyone, but your union leader "brothers" have played you. For many years. Imagine what those dues would be worth today if they had been invested in the S&P500 instead of paid to the thieves (your union).

I have been working for the world biggest corporation under the umbrella of the United Electrical Workers which has NOTHING to do with any government branch.

I do very well and very secure because of a good union. I also collect a pension as well because of another good union the, IAM.

If it were not for unions my position would not be what it is. Unions still have power and to suggest that without unions there would be no difference is not even rational and only spoken from a bitter beat up down trodden corporate victim who has lost hope and sees the future the way corporate America has designed it.

 

[oldcrow]

Yes, there are names attached to the top 517 East pilots. But the protection is for the top 517 East seniority numbers. If those had been different names (updating the lists to 5/1/07, for example), it would have still been the same number (517) but some of the names would be different. In other words, the names were protected because of the seniority number, not the seniority number protected because of the names.

I was told that only a few of the named 517 pilots on the current merged list remained at the end of 2011 , which is only 4 1/2 years away if the age 60 rule remains. So what you are saying is #1-517 are protected for east pilots reguardless of attrition.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So what you are saying is #1-517 are protected for east pilots reguardless of attrition.

That was a response to a remark that the award did protect named pilots, not an explaination of my understanding of the widebody fence. That's why it sounds so murky.

The way I read the award, the top 517 positions on the combined list went to East pilots because of the 423 widebody jobs East brought to the merger. Of those 423 jobs, 161 are widebody Captain jobs. Since few of the "top tier" East pilots (the 517) will likely bid the F/O widebody jobs, it really means that the 161 widebody captain jobs are reserved for the "top tier" East pilots for 4 years (unless any remain unfilled, in which case those will be awarded by seniority from those below the "top tier" pilots).

Of course, the "top tier" East pilots also have dibs on the 262 widebody F/O jobs for 4 years if they choose to bid them. But it's much more likely that those 262 F/O jobs will be unbid by the 517 "top tier" pilots and will be awarded to the senior bidders, whether East or West pilot.

Finally, if I understand your question correctly, the top 517 positions on the combined list aren't reserved for East pilots for 4 years. East pilot #582 on the arbitrator's list, and West pilot #583, will in time move into the top 517 because of attrition. But, again, neither will be "top tier" pilots for purposes of the widebody fence.

Hopefully, I didn't mangle that too badly....

Jim

 

[FWAAA]

I have been working for the world biggest corporation under the umbrella of the United Electrical Workers which has NOTHING to do with any government branch.

World's biggest corp? You work for Wal-Mart? 😀

Just kidding - probably GE or EXXON/Mobil. GM hasn't been the biggest for a while now. Who's biggest depends on whom you ask.

Sure, there are private sector union members - about 7.4% of private sector employees in 2006, according to the BLS:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

But public sector employees are almost five times more likely to be unionized. You don't think that's because those evil corporations have brainwashed all those employees, do you?

I do very well and very secure because of a good union. I also collect a pension as well because of another good union the, IAM.

"Because" of your union? Or in spite of it?

If it were not for unions my position would not be what it is. Unions still have power and to suggest that without unions there would be no difference is not even rational and only spoken from a bitter beat up down trodden corporate victim who has lost hope and sees the future the way corporate America has designed it.

I'm glad it's worked out for you (or at least that you're convinced it's worked out for you). Your position would not be what it is? You mean you couldn't convince your employer to pay you what you earn without your union brothers? And is anyone surprised that the economic rent paid to you and your brothers motivates companies to automate union members out of existence? Or ship the jobs offshore (if possible)? Attempts to extort more money from your boss are gonna be met with pushback, and unless you work for a monopoly like government, that's an inevitable result.

But let's get back to your comment - that caused me to comment: You mentioned that if this wasn't fought, then unions would become a joke in history class and in every corporate board room. Whether it's worked out for you doesn't disprove my assertion.

My point is that it's already happened. Outside of the public sector, they've become largely irrelevant. And in the airline biz, for the past few years, they haven't prevented rollbacks in wages and benefits among pilots, FAs, mechanics or other ground personnel. And corporate boardrooms have been laughing at unions for years and years now. Plenty of history teachers (and economics profs) have been pointing out to their students everything I posted above. Hard to convince people to enrich union leaders now that the heavy lifting has already occurred (some of it going on 100 years ago).

And no - I'm not a bitter, beat up, downtrodden victim - I'm management. At least prior to retirement. B)