ALPA DCA Reps. Update on Today's MEC Meeting

[flyboeing737]

And since our costs are cheaper, guess where bottom-line-protect-the-investors Doogie will put new flying and new airplanes?

Spoken like the true sell out you are. I can see you are a yes voter.

Gave away the Pension
Gave away the Work Rules
Gave away the Pay

Not one of these things was forced on us by a judged you voted to get rid of all this stuff.

Now you are happy to working at low wages. We will take all the new flying. Typical SCAB mentality.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Spoken like the true sell out you are. I can see you are a yes voter.

Gave away the Pension
Gave away the Work Rules
Gave away the Pay

Not one of these things was forced on us by a judged you voted to get rid of all this stuff.

Now you are happy to working at low wages. We will take all the new flying. Typical SCAB mentality.

Actually, I voted no to everything you mentioned that we were allowed to vote on.

We were not allowed to vote on the pension. (Please pay attention before you spout...it embarrasses you.)

And I will vote NO on any new joint contract if that's what it takes to keep the Nicolau disgrace in abeyance.

And I was senior to all of you westies; Nicolau saw to it that I remain senior to all of you westies as my seniority is between 517 and 1. And my attitude on voting NO is likely to be the rule among us 517, rather than the exception.

Enjoy the little airplanes that you have (and the occasional trip to Hawaii when you can manage to get one airborne.)

 

[PITbull]

Actually, there are others already in line to bankrupt ALPA whose lawsuits have been winding their way through the federal court system for quite some time.

By the time the HP pilots get to that point (federal lawsuits take years to be completed), there will be no ALPA to own.

Yea, there are all kinds of remedies...

Tell the West that if they bankrupt ALPA or decertify, then neither the East or West will follow a seniority list.

The company will make one up and if the majority of the pilots disagree, kiss the airline "good bye"!

 

[flyboeing737]

Yea, there are all kinds of remedies...

Tell the West that if they bankrupt ALPA or decertify, then neither the East or West will follow a seniority list.

The company will make one up and if the majority of the pilots disagree, kiss the airline "good bye"!

Under the RLA you can not decertify a union, you can replace it with a new union.


The term decertify is used when you try to rid the company of a union. It does not apply to the RLA.

 

[Rico]

Under the RLA you can not decertify a union, you can replace it with a new union.
The term decertify is used when you try to rid the company of a union. It does not apply to the RLA.

Don't confuse PitBull with the facts, she only listens to the voices in her head for advice.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Under the RLA you can not decertify a union, you can replace it with a new union.
The term decertify is used when you try to rid the company of a union. It does not apply to the RLA.

11. Q: How can employees decertify their current representative without getting another one?

A: There is no application for decertification, however if a majority of the craft or class does not vote for representation the current representative will lose its representation rights.

10. Q: How can employees change their labor organization?

A: Employees can change their labor organization by signing authorization cards for another organization, which then files an application and "wins" an election.

 

[flyboeing737]

Actually, I voted no to everything you mentioned that we were allowed to vote on.

We were not allowed to vote on the pension. (Please pay attention before you spout...it embarrasses you.)

And I will vote NO on any new joint contract if that's what it takes to keep the Nicolau disgrace in abeyance.

And I was senior to all of you westies; Nicolau saw to it that I remain senior to all of you westies as my seniority is between 517 and 1. And my attitude on voting NO is likely to be the rule among us 517, rather than the exception.

Enjoy the little airplanes that you have (and the occasional trip to Hawaii when you can manage to get one airborne.)

Enjoy working for $25,000 less on the same airplane. Maybe you can vote yes for a new paycut to get more flying. Sad but true.

 

[flyboeing737]

11. Q: How can employees decertify their current representative without getting another one?

A: There is no application for decertification, however if a majority of the craft or class does not vote for representation the current representative will lose its representation rights.

10. Q: How can employees change their labor organization?

A: Employees can change their labor organization by signing authorization cards for another organization, which then files an application and "wins" an election.

Decertification
The process of removing a union as a representative of a craft or class. There is no formal decertification process under the Railway Labor Act. The only way to decertify a union under the RLA is for the employees to use the procedures designed for other unions to challenge an incumbent union. Absent extraordinary circumstances, the NMB will not accept an application for another election for a period of two years from the date that the results of the election won by the incumbent union were certified. Decertification of unions through this process is very rare.

 

[lithuanian]

Charlie Tuna. Are you saying, for a fact, that Arbitrators are Not Lawyers! Is this true. Who are they? I do not trust anyone in Washington, much, these days. Who elects these people? We lobbies these people? What is in a name?

 

[700UW]

Under the RLA you can not decertify a union, you can replace it with a new union.
The term decertify is used when you try to rid the company of a union. It does not apply to the RLA.

Wrong, you can decertify.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Don't confuse PitBull with the facts, she only listens to the voices in her head for advice.

Jesus Rico!

If the pilots had Teddy in there negotiating for them I guarantee you there wouldn't be this mixed up senority list. She wouldn't have let it get that far. Nobody knows a contract like Teddy. In fact, I think the soon-to-be-formed new pilot union should hire her as a consultant.

Later,
Eye

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Charlie Tuna. Are you saying, for a fact, that Arbitrators are Not Lawyers!

You know as well as I do I posted an article and gave the link. I highlighted The unpredictability and finality parts. You read what I read. I didn't read anything that said no arbitrators are lawyers. If you want you make that statement then quote it with you name not mine.

Wrong, you can decertify.

RLA Q and A

11. Q: How can employees decertify their current representative without getting another one?

A: There is no application for decertification, however if a majority of the craft or class does not vote for representation the current representative will lose its representation rights.

10. Q: How can employees change their labor organization?

A: Employees can change their labor organization by signing authorization cards for another organization, which then files an application and "wins" an election.

 

[ussnark]

Spoken like the true sell out you are. I can see you are a yes voter.

Boy, did you ever miss on that one.

Gave away the Pension
Gave away the Work Rules
Gave away the Pay

He was not on the MEC. They were the ones who gave away the Pension. As far as I know, he has always been smarter than most. I cannot even imagine him voting "for" anything you assert.

Not one of these things was forced on us by a judged you voted to get rid of all this stuff.

Judges cannot "force" anything. They can approve or deny a company/union proposal and during bk, their ruling is only in effect during the bk run, self help is available on exit.

You may have listened too much to those few union "leaders" running around with their hair on fire, who should have received a good slap upside their heads. (to put out the fire, of course).

Now you are happy to working at low wages. We will take all the new flying. Typical SCAB mentality.

The gentleman hardly "needs" this job. I believe he has ethical standards unusually high for an American and your aimless efforts at analysis reveals more about you than him. You may wish to consider getting help for yourself. I also recommend "The elements of style" by E.B.White.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Herein lies the problem with a merger between USAirways(east) and ANY other pilot group in the industry. Unfortunately, the pre-HP-merger US pilot list was created by a plethora of previous mergers. Then, due to no fault of their own, circumstances led to years of stagnation and hiring trends at US that created a very senior pilot group. By senior I mean years of service versus position, relative to peers at other airlines.

The result was guys with 20 years of service barely holding 737 captain, 737 first officers with 10-15 years not being able to hold a line (block), and the final tragedy of furloughs going all the way back to pilots hired in the mid '80s. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, every current FO still flying was a captain at some point. That means every FO flying before the furloughs started is now furloughed.

So now the debate on whether 20 years of service at one company entitles a pilot to 20 years of recognition at another airline. Let's face it... The company may be called USAirways, but it is no longer the old USAirways. It could just as easily have been renamed XYZ Airlines. There are people who will debate this for eternity. But the fact remains that there is no national seniority list. We’ve always known that in this business you are married to your airline for better or worse. Is that right? Maybe not. But until there is a national list with standard pay for years of service, it is what it is.

As harsh as it is, there is no career expectation for a pilot furloughed from a twice bankrupt airline. The reality is HP MAY or may not have had problems in its future. That is speculative. But USAirways WAS insolvent and close to liquidation. And I’m sure this weighed on Nicolau’s decision. To say that putting furloughed pilots on the bottom is a windfall for HP is ridiculous. DOH is the only result that would have pleased US east. Anything short of that would have resulted in the same cry of foul we have today. Interestingly, for years there were US pilots preaching DOH and citing Nicolau’s past rulings when it benefited them to do so. Now that (in their opinion) a decision went against them they are beside themselves with anger.

US east MEC shot themselves by being unreasonable and wrapping all their expectations on DOH, which in any pilot’s opinion in this industry (except US pilots) is a non-starter. That was their decision, and now that their butts have been handed to them, they are talking about burning the place to the ground. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

For the record, this is the same attitude some had during previous merger attempts with UAL. US east doesn’t seem to have a problem fencing off the west guys from widebody flying. But in 2000 the US pilots were furious that UAL pilots wanted to fence them out of our widebody flying. When HP and US first announce their intent to merge, some of us warned the HP guys to be careful of the intent of the historically self-serving US pilots. This is exactly why.

IMO some of this ruling certainly could have been better. Widebody FO’s should have been given the same consideration as Widebody captains, for example. Some furloughees could have been slotted in or given a 3 to 1 ratio for their years of service. But by being unreasonable and stubborn, the US east negotiators left no incentive for Nicolau to be reasonable with them. IMO, although this ruling is very hard on junior US pilots, is a good precedent for future consolidation.

Section 4 of the arbitration is very good for the global airlines.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Judges cannot "force" anything. They can approve or deny a company/union proposal and during bk, their ruling is only in effect during the bk run, self help is available on exit.

I am not sure that has been tested. Do you have links to your refs and case law?