ALPA DCA Reps. Update on Today's MEC Meeting

[Henderfuzz]

Let's put it this way.

If the list stands as it is, we can all kiss USAirways goodbye.

The resentment and anger will sink this ship.

Better polish up those resumes just in case.

This would be ashame too if this pilot group and its primadonas bring this airline down with the potential it has. Im not without sympathy with you guys becasue if I lost my seniorty I would not be happy.
However I dont really want to see this company fail.
Ive spent to much of my career wondering if I may have a job tommorw. Im sick and tired of all these stupid fights.
Im afraid Im speaking on deaf ear here but its my feelings on this whole thing.
So figure it out guys.

 

[phasersonstun2]

The severe implications of this decision have kicked me out of lurk mode.

As I see it, there are, to quote Mr Spock, "always alternatives". I don't expect that any form af legal challenge will be easy...

The episode you are referring to was one where Scotty reminded Spock of Spocks' own words - as the shuttle was burning up in a decaying orbit - that there are always alternatives.

"Did I" ? Spock said. "I might have been mistaken."

Spock scans the shuttle control panel then purposefully flicks a switch and pushes a button jarring the shuttle and its' doomed crew one last time.

Scotty realizes Spock jettisoned the remaining fuel and ignited it, cutting their decaying orbit time and collision with the atmosphere from minutes to seconds.

"Ahhh, it's like sending up a flare." Scotty chirped.

"There might not be anyone to see it" Spock replies.

Sulu did see it, told Kirk, and the crew was hurridly beamed aboard the Enterprise just seconds before the shuttle disintegrated.

 

[UWCactus]

Hey guys...don't take out a "union" issue on the employees of US Airways, many of whom have sacrificed a great deal to allow the airline a new birth. If Dougie was responsible for the decision on seniority integration then I can see some anger towards the company, but please think about the 30,000 other employees.

 

[PITbull]

Decertification
The process of removing a union as a representative of a craft or class. There is no formal decertification process under the Railway Labor Act. The only way to decertify a union under the RLA is for the employees to use the procedures designed for other unions to challenge an incumbent union. Absent extraordinary circumstances, the NMB will not accept an application for another election for a period of two years from the date that the results of the election won by the incumbent union were certified. Decertification of unions through this process is very rare.

You CAN start a decertification campaign by either soliciting another union for representation or going with no representation for a couple of years. If you read the most recent history on NW, they voted to replace their f/a union with AFA, 2006. The process took 10 months.

 

[skyflyr69]

Insolvency is no where to be found in ALPA merger policy. Alpa carriers are treated the same if financially stable or not. Arbitrator was wrong to consider that.

Section 45 most likely will prevail tho.
:down:

Herein lies the problem with a merger between USAirways(east) and ANY other pilot group in the industry. Unfortunately, the pre-HP-merger US pilot list was created by a plethora of previous mergers. Then, due to no fault of their own, circumstances led to years of stagnation and hiring trends at US that created a very senior pilot group. By senior I mean years of service versus position, relative to peers at other airlines.

The result was guys with 20 years of service barely holding 737 captain, 737 first officers with 10-15 years not being able to hold a line (block), and the final tragedy of furloughs going all the way back to pilots hired in the mid '80s. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, every current FO still flying was a captain at some point. That means every FO flying before the furloughs started is now furloughed.

So now the debate on whether 20 years of service at one company entitles a pilot to 20 years of recognition at another airline. Let's face it... The company may be called USAirways, but it is no longer the old USAirways. It could just as easily have been renamed XYZ Airlines. There are people who will debate this for eternity. But the fact remains that there is no national seniority list. We’ve always known that in this business you are married to your airline for better or worse. Is that right? Maybe not. But until there is a national list with standard pay for years of service, it is what it is.

As harsh as it is, there is no career expectation for a pilot furloughed from a twice bankrupt airline. The reality is HP MAY or may not have had problems in its future. That is speculative. But USAirways WAS insolvent and close to liquidation. And I’m sure this weighed on Nicolau’s decision. To say that putting furloughed pilots on the bottom is a windfall for HP is ridiculous. DOH is the only result that would have pleased US east. Anything short of that would have resulted in the same cry of foul we have today. Interestingly, for years there were US pilots preaching DOH and citing Nicolau’s past rulings when it benefited them to do so. Now that (in their opinion) a decision went against them they are beside themselves with anger.

US east MEC shot themselves by being unreasonable and wrapping all their expectations on DOH, which in any pilot’s opinion in this industry (except US pilots) is a non-starter. That was their decision, and now that their butts have been handed to them, they are talking about burning the place to the ground. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

For the record, this is the same attitude some had during previous merger attempts with UAL. US east doesn’t seem to have a problem fencing off the west guys from widebody flying. But in 2000 the US pilots were furious that UAL pilots wanted to fence them out of our widebody flying. When HP and US first announce their intent to merge, some of us warned the HP guys to be careful of the intent of the historically self-serving US pilots. This is exactly why.

IMO some of this ruling certainly could have been better. Widebody FO’s should have been given the same consideration as Widebody captains, for example. Some furloughees could have been slotted in or given a 3 to 1 ratio for their years of service. But by being unreasonable and stubborn, the US east negotiators left no incentive for Nicolau to be reasonable with them. IMO, although this ruling is very hard on junior US pilots, is a good precedent for future consolidation.

Not true. Read the internal filings when this Investment merger went down. US AIRWAYS is the "surviving" carrier, otherwise the US - East pilots can take their PBGC monies at 50 years of age under "change of control". PBGC has ruled
no change of control. Lakefield and friends put this together. Not AWA.

Hey guys...don't take out a "union" issue on the employees of US Airways, many of whom have sacrificed a great deal to allow the airline a new birth. If Dougie was responsible for the decision on seniority integration then I can see some anger towards the company, but please think about the 30,000 other employees.

 

[ClueByFour]

Not true. Read the internal filings when this Investment merger went down. US AIRWAYS is the "surviving" carrier, otherwise the US - East pilots can take their PBGC monies at 50 years of age under "change of control". PBGC has ruled
no change of control. Lakefield and friends put this together. Not AWA.

False. The SEC and the BK court both ruled that for accounting and legal purposes, AWA was the "surviving entity" and the "controlling entity." Twas not a merger.

 

[ilg30/7]

False. The SEC and the BK court both ruled that for accounting and legal purposes, AWA was the "surviving entity" and the "controlling entity." Twas not a merger.

Cool. That means a "change in control" did in fact occur and those provisions of the East contracts governing such should be in full effect, yes?

What? You mean they are not? You mean Tempe itself is actually arguing against a change in control happening? How can that be if it was not a merger?

 

[Busdrvr]

just curious, but considering AWA once operated 747's and U did not, and some of the senior guys at AWA were around when they did, wouldn't it make sense that the AWA guys get any new 4 engine flying since they once had those expectations?

Career expectations change. It sucks, but that's the way it is. While liquidation isn't in the ALPA merger policy, neither is "DOH".

Just to be devils advocate, won't the most senior guys at AWA lose some QOL? Are all guys at U above 517 on widebodies? Truthfully, there were those of us who warned you this would happen. I still remember a U guy hired in 99 telling another UAL guy who was hired in 94 that he should be slotted above him since U was growing so fast and hadn't hired in so long. Between that and old "flylow 22" asking for 747 manuals, it's tough to see this from the U perspective.

 

[john john]

just curious, but considering AWA once operated 747's and U did not, and some of the senior guys at AWA were around when they did, wouldn't it make sense that the AWA guys get any new 4 engine flying since they once had those expectations?

Career expectations change. It sucks, but that's the way it is. While liquidation isn't in the ALPA merger policy, neither is "DOH".

Just to be devils advocate, won't the most senior guys at AWA lose some QOL? Are all guys at U above 517 on widebodies? Truthfully, there were those of us who warned you this would happen. I still remember a U guy hired in 99 telling another UAL guy who was hired in 94 that he should be slotted above him since U was growing so fast and hadn't hired in so long. Between that and old "flylow 22" asking for 747 manuals, it's tough to see this from the U perspective.

HP operated 747 for 2 years and sold the flying as well

 

[Elevation]

Hey guys...don't take out a "union" issue on the employees of US Airways, many of whom have sacrificed a great deal to allow the airline a new birth. If Dougie was responsible for the decision on seniority integration then I can see some anger towards the company, but please think about the 30,000 other employees.

It's all some people know how to do. :down:

The Company put the whole thing in motion by not coming to an agreement in a timely fashion. Preferring instead to rely on the well tested and successful divide and conquer strategy utilized by Mr Glass at US.

Management can not claim any moral high ground as it was managements decision to allow ALPA to "Work it out" and now you act like all of this was created in a vacuum.

If US Management would expend the same effort in being pro active regarding Employees and Customer issues as it does in urinating on it employees and customers then it would be a world class place to work and a great company to fly on.

Clearly that is expecting to much from this spreadsheet toting, Bonus grubbing Mongol Hoard.

You really don't have an idea what you're talking about.

 

[Elevation]

You Know what??? I am CLUELESS on the whole ALPA thing and I should keep my big trap shut.

I agree