Delta Labor Relations thread.

[topDawg]

It's called reality, check it out.

 
not at all. 
 
Your beloved union(IAM) is just as guilty at wetting the bed as the NMB and democratic party. 
 
It took the IAM/TWU how long to work its crap out at AA? 

 

[WeAAsles]

not at all. 
 
Your beloved union(IAM) is just as guilty at wetting the bed as the NMB and democratic party. 
 
It took the IAM/TWU how long to work its crap out at AA?

Don't forget that it took the NMB 9 months to certify the group and that was partially due to the actions of a well known TWU President who supports AMFA over the Union he is a part of. My guess would be without his protest the Association may have been certified in 4 months instead of the 9 as that's what I've read is the average time.

Not to say being fair that the IAM and TWU didn't have other issues that held up the process.

 

[topDawg]

Don't forget that it took the NMB 9 months to certify the group and that was partially due to the actions of a well known TWU President who supports AMFA over the Union he is a part of. My guess would be without his protest the Association may have been certified in 4 months instead of the 9 as that's what I've read is the average time.

Not to say being fair that the IAM and TWU didn't have other issues that held up the process.

 
I know trying to give the mechanics a chance for a vote on what union they get. What an asshole! 
 
sarcasm. 
 
if the TWU/IAM wouldn't have been money grabbing and just let the membership pick one right of the bat (like every other work group at American, Delta and United did) it wouldn't have been an issue. Once the TWU/IAM started a money grab and stalling it was only right for the mechanics to get AMFA (or any other union) on the vote card. 

 

[WeAAsles]

I know trying to give the mechanics a chance for a vote on what union they get. What an ####! 
 
sarcasm. 
 
if the TWU/IAM wouldn't have been money grabbing and just let the membership pick one right of the bat (like every other work group at American, Delta and United did) it wouldn't have been an issue. Once the TWU/IAM started a money grab and stalling it was only right for the mechanics to get AMFA (or any other union) on the vote card.

Ok but it's been said a thousand times now over and over. They've had 52 years and maybe even plenty of reasons that they should have went with someone else like AMFA and "they" haven't made the switch? The concessions were in 2003 (16 years ago) and they didn't make the switch? They hated the idea of the Association and they didn't make the switch? They had time before the NMB certified the Association to get in the cards and they didn't?

The IBT attempted to win over the mechanics at US and lost. And AMFA only got a measly, incredibly paltry (8) write in votes. (8) Why that number (8) doesn't sink in with the posters on this board is beyond me?

And I'm sure that one of those posters will come on here and say that the TWU punked them. C'mon give me a break with that one. And when Lombardo took over they shut down all resistance at putting out any negative AMFA material. So there they had their chance (un impeded) and all we got were crickets. TWU has been at AA for 70 years and AMFA has existed for 52 years. Dawg I count you as one of the few smart ones on this board. You have to know and admit that the change is NEVER going to happen.

But I will say that the Association has much to prove. A "good" JCBA will do that for me.

 

[swamt]

Ok but it's been said a thousand times now over and over. They've had 52 years and maybe even plenty of reasons that they should have went with someone else like AMFA and "they" haven't made the switch? The concessions were in 2003 (16 years ago) and they didn't make the switch? They hated the idea of the Association and they didn't make the switch? They had time before the NMB certified the Association to get in the cards and they didn't?

The IBT attempted to win over the mechanics at US and lost. And AMFA only got a measly, incredibly paltry (8) write in votes. (8) Why that number (8) doesn't sink in with the posters on this board is beyond me?

And I'm sure that one of those posters will come on here and say that the TWU punked them. C'mon give me a break with that one. And when Lombardo took over they shut down all resistance at putting out any negative AMFA material. So there they had their chance (un impeded) and all we got were crickets. TWU has been at AA for 70 years and AMFA has existed for 52 years. Dawg I count you as one of the few smart ones on this board. You have to know and admit that the change is NEVER going to happen.

But I will say that the Association has much to prove. A "good" JCBA will do that for me.

WeAAsles, I do agree with 99% of your post and your right, if they can't get another union in at AA after or since 1983, (when the concessions started) 1993, 2003, 2012 and lately 2013, then they never will. Your also right that "they had their chances"  I do get that. Now here comes your 1% part.  Do you agree with this??  If this asso. does not get "ALL" past concessions (minimum from 2003, but I would say since 1983)  and get an industry leading contract, and get a minimum of Delta or United +7, that they have failed their members???   And when they don't get "ALL" concessions restored to the members, they still will not be able to fire the asso. with any union. The finished product of this asso. coming to life was a direct hit on you guys as they knew once the asso. is in you guys will not be able to "EVER" get rid of them with the way their constitution is written with the pension fund in there, they kept promising and guaranteeing the membership would have a vote. I was the only one that personally called the NMB and tried my damness to get the info out to you guys, but most still trusted the IAM and certain individuals out here that they would in fact go thru the NMB for a vote. I was screaming that they in fact will not, as this was all devised to keep the members calm and cool and then "BAM" you guys were certified by the NMB with no vote all of a sudden. It happened just like I said it would happen. It was all designed to block and keep AMFA from getting in period. Rather some out here want to believe that or not is their problem. Because the TWU knew that both IAM and the TWU were toast in the aviation industry as far as representing mechanics, if they were voted out of AA and US IF there were to be a vote, so their sure existance was at stake as if their life depended on it.  Now the poor AA'ers are stuck with this asso for the rest of their careers as well as future careers at AA, so sad brother, so sad...

 

[WeAAsles]

WeAAsles, I do agree with 99% of your post and your right, if they can't get another union in at AA after or since 1983, (when the concessions started) 1993, 2003, 2012 and lately 2013, then they never will. Your also right that "they had their chances"  I do get that. Now here comes your 1% part.  Do you agree with this??  If this asso. does not get "ALL" past concessions (minimum from 2003, but I would say since 1983)  and get an industry leading contract, and get a minimum of Delta or United +7, that they have failed their members???   And when they don't get "ALL" concessions restored to the members, they still will not be able to fire the asso. with any union. The finished product of this asso. coming to life was a direct hit on you guys as they knew once the asso. is in you guys will not be able to "EVER" get rid of them with the way their constitution is written with the pension fund in there, they kept promising and guaranteeing the membership would have a vote. I was the only one that personally called the NMB and tried my damness to get the info out to you guys, but most still trusted the IAM and certain individuals out here that they would in fact go thru the NMB for a vote. I was screaming that they in fact will not, as this was all devised to keep the members calm and cool and then "BAM" you guys were certified by the NMB with no vote all of a sudden. It happened just like I said it would happen. It was all designed to block and keep AMFA from getting in period. Rather some out here want to believe that or not is their problem. Because the TWU knew that both IAM and the TWU were toast in the aviation industry as far as representing mechanics, if they were voted out of AA and US IF there were to be a vote, so their sure existance was at stake as if their life depended on it.  Now the poor AA'ers are stuck with this asso for the rest of their careers as well as future careers at AA, so sad brother, so sad...

No they didn't do it because of AMFA although Jim Little I do believe was nervous about them. They did it because Trumka told the TWU (Little) that he had better do it. The IAM went to Trumka and said that the TWU won't talk to them. The IAM wrote the Association documents and the TWU agreed and signed them.

And you were not the only one saying that there wouldn't be a vote. Me and 700 were saying it as well. The TWU was saying that there will be a vote because I think they really believed the NMB would rule they had to have one? The IAM filed with the NMB that a vote wasn't needed and I read that filing and could see their point and why I flew with it that there wouldn't be a vote. But I certainly was whacked by those guys for giving them that opinion and if you think about it a heads up. In a way if you think about it I was warning them that if they didn't want the Association they had better hurry up and make a change. But they were too stupid or arrogant to listen to a bag smasher. (Oh well)

The Association is not going to get us back everything we lost actually since 1983 (After deregulation) but they're going to get back A LOT of things IMO. If they hold firm to try to get back everything lost since 1983 they'll still be talking till I retire 11 years from now. Parker just said on his State of the Airline address that the average raise will be 22%? For Fleet I'm expecting 28%. That's 3% above the top UAL rate. I'm ok with 3% if we have the strongest contract in the industry and raise the bar. We have PS now. Yea not as rich right now as other airlines but it's ok (to me)

And if we could get back all language to pre 83 levels (actually there was some bad language then too particularly in layoffs and displacements) we would make it impossible for the airline to compete against your airline, Delta, UAL and particularly the LCC's. That would be future suicide. In a few years they would just walk back up those NYC BK steps again. None of us who have some time left (11 years for me) should ever want to see that crap again.

At the end of the day the Mechanics at AA (and all others) will have something to vote on. I hope the Association learned something from that UAL vote? Don't try to force something down our throats that we will have a choice on. (Teamcare, VEBA, IAMPF) IF IF IF (still highly doubt it) the IAMPF wound up being the only option I absolutely see a repeat of that UAL vote and Fleet just might join them. (But I'd STILL like to have that UAL ramp retirement deal. IAMPF and a 3% 401k match)

 

[topDawg]

Ok but it's been said a thousand times now over and over. They've had 52 years and maybe even plenty of reasons that they should have went with someone else like AMFA and "they" haven't made the switch? The concessions were in 2003 (16 years ago) and they didn't make the switch? They hated the idea of the Association and they didn't make the switch? They had time before the NMB certified the Association to get in the cards and they didn't?

The IBT attempted to win over the mechanics at US and lost. And AMFA only got a measly, incredibly paltry (8) write in votes. (8) Why that number (8) doesn't sink in with the posters on this board is beyond me?

And I'm sure that one of those posters will come on here and say that the TWU punked them. C'mon give me a break with that one. And when Lombardo took over they shut down all resistance at putting out any negative AMFA material. So there they had their chance (un impeded) and all we got were crickets. TWU has been at AA for 70 years and AMFA has existed for 52 years. Dawg I count you as one of the few smart ones on this board. You have to know and admit that the change is NEVER going to happen.

But I will say that the Association has much to prove. A "good" JCBA will do that for me.

 
So you are saying this thread should be closed? 
 
 
FA's at Delta have have 70+ years to get a union, clearly it will never ever happen they should have there right to vote taken from them and told to shut up and be happy?
 
Who let Obama login as WeAAles again? 
 
Change doesn't happen tell it happens. 

 

[WeAAsles]

So you are saying this thread should be closed? 
 
 
FA's at Delta have have 70+ years to get a union, clearly it will never ever happen they should have there right to vote taken from them and told to shut up and be happy?
 
Who let Obama login as WeAAles again? 
 
Change doesn't happen tell it happens.

This thread doesn't matter at all for the point it was made. I've never seen at max 6 people looking at it. The FA's and Ramp have their momentum on Facebook.

And Delta didn't have the influence in their house of lots of people who had a Union before and want one back. Will they one day be successful?????? Maybe, maybe not ever?

As far as what you and I were talking about. Again once the AA peeps get the $$Money$$ anything else will be even more done than it's ever been. You KNOW for a fact I'm right.

Edit: Right now I'm the only "one" on this thread. Me. Not even me, myself and I. Just me. (Dead thread)

 

[swamt]

No they didn't do it because of AMFA although Jim Little I do believe was nervous about them. They did it because Trumka told the TWU (Little) that he had better do it. The IAM went to Trumka and said that the TWU won't talk to them. The IAM wrote the Association documents and the TWU agreed and signed them.

And you were not the only one saying that there wouldn't be a vote. Me and 700 were saying it as well. The TWU was saying that there will be a vote because I think they really believed the NMB would rule they had to have one? The IAM filed with the NMB that a vote wasn't needed and I read that filing and could see their point and why I flew with it that there wouldn't be a vote. But I certainly was whacked by those guys for giving them that opinion and if you think about it a heads up. In a way if you think about it I was warning them that if they didn't want the Association they had better hurry up and make a change. But they were too stupid or arrogant to listen to a bag smasher. (Oh well)

The Association is not going to get us back everything we lost actually since 1983 (After deregulation) but they're going to get back A LOT of things IMO. If they hold firm to try to get back everything lost since 1983 they'll still be talking till I retire 11 years from now. Parker just said on his State of the Airline address that the average raise will be 22%? For Fleet I'm expecting 28%. That's 3% above the top UAL rate. I'm ok with 3% if we have the strongest contract in the industry and raise the bar. We have PS now. Yea not as rich right now as other airlines but it's ok (to me)

And if we could get back all language to pre 83 levels (actually there was some bad language then too particularly in layoffs and displacements) we would make it impossible for the airline to compete against your airline, Delta, UAL and particularly the LCC's. That would be future suicide. In a few years they would just walk back up those NYC BK steps again. None of us who have some time left (11 years for me) should ever want to see that crap again.

At the end of the day the Mechanics at AA (and all others) will have something to vote on. I hope the Association learned something from that UAL vote? Don't try to force something down our throats that we will have a choice on. (Teamcare, VEBA, IAMPF) IF IF IF (still highly doubt it) the IAMPF wound up being the only option I absolutely see a repeat of that UAL vote and Fleet just might join them. (But I'd STILL like to have that UAL ramp retirement deal. IAMPF and a 3% 401k match)

As much as you do not want to believe it, yes it was also done in part because of AMFA.  It may have not been the main reason.  And, I didn't suggest that AMFA was the only reason in my original post, I also indicated that the asso. was combined from the 2 unions that would have been voted out of the industry of representing mechanics at airlines, if both sides would have had a fair vote for representation. A 3rd reason was for the mere fact that they (new asso. leaders) were much, much better protected from the members removing the asso. from representation.  4th reason, to keep the dues monies flowing into the pockets of the asso.. Now, yes I too agree with you that it very well may have been ordered by Trumka, not denying that at all, but his orders to do so was to 1- block AMFA from getting in.  2- prevented TWU and IAM from being removed from representing airline mechanics. 3- stay in control with shared representation. 4- keep the dues flow machine in tact and actually increasing the dues flowing in.  5- To remove any choices out of the memberships hands, ie--votes/elections.  
 
Not sure when you came into the convo's and started stating the same. But 700 and I were going at it for months, then all of a sudden after he saw it going exactly the way I said it would and all voting rights that were promised to all the members were ripped right out from under their feet without one ioda of a sorry guys we/I was wrong there will be no vote.  Now c'mon.  The TWU knew there would not be a vote from the very beginning. This was in fact a set up by the TWU/IAM, with the majority of the pressure to do so coming from the IAM side, in order for them to not lose the dues flow.  So why didn't the TWU and IAM have an election between the 2 of them? Because they knew one of them would definately be gone, and there was a very good if not great possibility that both would have been gone.  The TWU should have told the IAM too bad we want a vote between the 2 unions. TWU more than likely would have won the representational vote just by shear numbers.
 
Well I too hope the mechanics can get back at all since 2003. That would be a pretty good start. I look forward to them voting on an industry leading contract. I am optamistic of seeing this from this asso.  and if they do, you guys better read the fine print. Pretty sure there will be hidden reasons if they are anywhere close to D or U +7.   Good luck to you guys, I will post an update after nego's continue today as we speak.

 

[swamt]

Delta mechanics;
 
   The co. brought you guys to 46.15.  Is there future raises set for you guys?  Like years 1,2,3 ect...?

 

[Kev3188]

DL doesn't post/announce future rate increases...

 

[WeAAsles]

As much as you do not want to believe it, yes it was also done in part because of AMFA.  It may have not been the main reason.  And, I didn't suggest that AMFA was the only reason in my original post, I also indicated that the asso. was combined from the 2 unions that would have been voted out of the industry of representing mechanics at airlines, if both sides would have had a fair vote for representation. A 3rd reason was for the mere fact that they (new asso. leaders) were much, much better protected from the members removing the asso. from representation.  4th reason, to keep the dues monies flowing into the pockets of the asso.. Now, yes I too agree with you that it very well may have been ordered by Trumka, not denying that at all, but his orders to do so was to 1- block AMFA from getting in.  2- prevented TWU and IAM from being removed from representing airline mechanics. 3- stay in control with shared representation. 4- keep the dues flow machine in tact and actually increasing the dues flowing in.  5- To remove any choices out of the memberships hands, ie--votes/elections.  
 
Not sure when you came into the convo's and started stating the same. But 700 and I were going at it for months, then all of a sudden after he saw it going exactly the way I said it would and all voting rights that were promised to all the members were ripped right out from under their feet without one ioda of a sorry guys we/I was wrong there will be no vote.  Now c'mon.  The TWU knew there would not be a vote from the very beginning. This was in fact a set up by the TWU/IAM, with the majority of the pressure to do so coming from the IAM side, in order for them to not lose the dues flow.  So why didn't the TWU and IAM have an election between the 2 of them? Because they knew one of them would definately be gone, and there was a very good if not great possibility that both would have been gone.  The TWU should have told the IAM too bad we want a vote between the 2 unions. TWU more than likely would have won the representational vote just by shear numbers.
 
Well I too hope the mechanics can get back at all since 2003. That would be a pretty good start. I look forward to them voting on an industry leading contract. I am optamistic of seeing this from this asso.  and if they do, you guys better read the fine print. Pretty sure there will be hidden reasons if they are anywhere close to D or U +7.   Good luck to you guys, I will post an update after nego's continue today as we speak.

You site AMFA as being the #1 reason for the Association being formed and you need to stop. You're wrong period. You even agreed with me on the other post that the momentum has never been there. Outside of a number of minority radicals in certain cities the mechanic members at AA just aren't interested in it. The proof continues to be that they never submitted to the NMB for a vote. You seem to sometimes be saying that the TWU in the past should have made it easy for them and not fought them? Really. If someone's trying to raid your house do you shoot them in the eye or do you open the door and say go ahead, take my TV?

AMFA organized their first group a year before I was even born. 52 years ago. In more than my entire lifetime AA mechanics have not even submitted enough showing of interest to the NMB for a vote much less voted the TWU out.

Now explain to me why there is also such a disinterest from US mechanics? The IBT was able to get a vote but not AMFA? IBT lost though there and AMFA (the airline mechanics only union) only got 8 write in votes? Out of thousands of members only 8 wanted AMFA. 8 people is not even good enough for a decent apartment party much less a house party.

I've heard and am sick to death of reading the "excuses" on this Forum why they can't break in. If people want something bad enough there are no excuses. Just like people at Delta. If they want a Union bad enough stop throwing out excuses and grab the bull by the horns already.

 

[swamt]

DL doesn't post/announce future rate increases...

Ok. So they do not post or announce, is there future years increases coming to you guys?  Was just wondering if they just did the one time raise to 46.15 or if there were also future yearly increases. Unless your post is indicating that there is no future raises indicated at this time, then I understand. Thx for the response. 

 

[swamt]

You site AMFA as being the #1 reason for the Association being formed and you need to stop. You're wrong period. You even agreed with me on the other post that the momentum has never been there. Outside of a number of minority radicals in certain cities the mechanic members at AA just aren't interested in it. The proof continues to be that they never submitted to the NMB for a vote. You seem to sometimes be saying that the TWU in the past should have made it easy for them and not fought them? Really. If someone's trying to raid your house do you shoot them in the eye or do you open the door and say go ahead, take my TV?

AMFA organized their first group a year before I was even born. 52 years ago. In more than my entire lifetime AA mechanics have not even submitted enough showing of interest to the NMB for a vote much less voted the TWU out.

Now explain to me why there is also such a disinterest from US mechanics? The IBT was able to get a vote but not AMFA? IBT lost though there and AMFA (the airline mechanics only union) only got 8 write in votes? Out of thousands of members only 8 wanted AMFA. 8 people is not even good enough for a decent apartment party much less a house party.

I've heard and am sick to death of reading the "excuses" on this Forum why they can't break in. If people want something bad enough there are no excuses. Just like people at Delta. If they want a Union bad enough stop throwing out excuses and grab the bull by the horns already.

My fault. Did not mean to make it look like AMFA was the number one reason for the asso.  It just so happens I did list it first but did not mean to say it was the number one reason. Just one of the reasons. Sorry for the confusion.  If you wish you can list any and all the reasons I listed in any order you want, they all add up to a complete corrupted union working with the company side by side.  
As far as the 8 mechs that wrote in AMFA, did any other union get wrote in?  Was AMFA on the ballot?  Was there an AMFA drive going on?  No is the answer to all these questions.  Most, about 75% or better, don't even know you can write in when voting on representation.  
I too am sick and tired of the excuses of not making the changes at AA for new representation.  
BTW:  They never planned on asking the NMB for a vote, they knew they could push this asso. thru by using the NMB without a vote and get certified before the membership could even figure out what happened, and it did.  A perfect scam by all unions as well as the company involved...

 

[Kev3188]

Ok. So they do not post or announce, is there future years increases coming to you guys?  Was just wondering if they just did the one time raise to 46.15 or if there were also future yearly increases. Unless your post is indicating that there is no future raises indicated at this time, then I understand. Thx for the response. 

They announced the one we received in December a few months prior, but it's not like in a CBA where there may be several future increases (and dates) listed.