Delta Labor Relations thread.

[Kev3188]

On the contrary Dawg. I'm keenly aware of what year it is. Don't mistake me that I'm blaming Delta management for just taking advantage of what those people allow them to do to them without voting to be represented and at least trying to get that changed. I also don't blame the sub contracting companies for doing the same thing as long as they can get away with it. If they're getting a steady pool of applicants who feel about themselves that this is the best they can do, that's who needs to shoulder the blame. 
In this case I blame the Delta rampers themselves. They're witnessing all of these things happening around them and all they're doing about it is cowering in the shadows and the background hoping that things change or that others stand up for them. They're hoping for an Angel to swoop in on a White horse and lift them up. 
I understand very well also that society as a whole is trying to do away with good paying jobs for people with minimal skills and education. The days of earning a decent wage for the sweat you provide is getting little value in return.
Back to Delta ramp though I'm just wondering if they have a breaking point? So far it just doesn't seem like they do if Kev is right and they're growing and taking advantage of that RR system. My involvement in the discussion does come with a bit of selfishness because I'm aware that my Union has to compete with what goes on over there. But as far as the RR idea ever being introduced in the house I live in, I don't know? It's just not something I feel very comfortable with. The idea that for me to have great pay and benefits I have to stand on top of these guys shoulders. Because that's really what it is let's not fool ourselves.
I want my Union to give my company some flexibility in case the need arises again as you said. Just trying to figure out where to draw that line is the hard part?

From this observer's perch, it's a mix of fear, complacency, and resignation.

 

[WeAAsles]

From this observer's perch, it's a mix of fear, complacency, and resignation.

Fear and complacency are things that can be overcome. Resignation on the other hand is finite. And also up to the individual if he views it as a bad or good thing?

 

[700UW]

More Pulse comments:
 

 

[topDawg]

On the contrary Dawg. I'm keenly aware of what year it is.

I question if you do in the business/airline industry world. Ready reserve isn't the terrible thing you make it out to be. The abuse of ready reserve is the problem here. 
 

Don't mistake me that I'm blaming Delta management for just taking advantage of what those people allow them to do to them without voting to be represented and at least trying to get that changed. I also don't blame the sub contracting companies for doing the same thing as long as they can get away with it. If they're getting a steady pool of applicants who feel about themselves that this is the best they can do, that's who needs to shoulder the blame.

I don't think you are blaming Delta management, although it is their fault somewhat. 
They need to stop abusing RR and start bringing back work if a station is over a line. Stations like MIA, RDU (almost 100 daily flights!), SAN, CLT and a few others being done by vendors is a damn joke. 
 

In this case I blame the Delta rampers themselves. They're witnessing all of these things happening around them and all they're doing about it is cowering in the shadows and the background hoping that things change or that others stand up for them. They're hoping for an Angel to swoop in on a White horse and lift them up.

I think they are looking at what the other two airlines have and just aren't seeing much better. Maybe if the IAM/TWU can hit the ball out of the park but so far combined post merger world the IAM at least has shown they are trying to outsource people as fast a management is. 
 

I understand very well also that society as a whole is trying to do away with good paying jobs for people with minimal skills and education. The days of earning a decent wage for the sweat you provide is getting little value in return.

Unions need to do more to prevent this. 
Oh and it will help if they are going to keep tossing votes at the left that the left stop screwing them over just as much as management. 
 

Back to Delta ramp though I'm just wondering if they have a breaking point? So far it just doesn't seem like they do if Kev is right and they're growing and taking advantage of that RR system. My involvement in the discussion does come with a bit of selfishness because I'm aware that my Union has to compete with what goes on over there. But as far as the RR idea ever being introduced in the house I live in, I don't know? It's just not something I feel very comfortable with. The idea that for me to have great pay and benefits I have to stand on top of these guys shoulders. Because that's really what it is let's not fool ourselves.

but this is the problem. When it was started and why it was started this wasn't really true. It allowed the airline some flexible staffing and thus they wouldn't have to bring in contractors in the high seasons or add employees just to lay them off in a few months. It gives the young guys a chance to get a foot in the door when they couldn't really do so if they were having to work FT. 
 
I know quite a few people who started as a RR while they were in college and have moved on to better things. 
 
again its the over use of this program that is the problem, not the program. IMO the program keeps more work in-house. Just like having non-A&Ps in maintenance. 

I want my Union to give my company some flexibility in case the need arises again as you said. Just trying to figure out where to draw that line is the hard part?

drawing the line isn't really that hard though. 
 
The company and employees need to come together with a number they both see as far. Say RR20/80 in spokes RR30/70 in hubs. Kev would you agree to that?
 
or maybe even set some company wide numbers that can be somewhat flexible per station. That way if you get a station that is supper senior the manager can make a RR into a benefited spot because it would take a crazy amount of time for a benefited spot to leave. 
 
 
finding the answer is never that hard WeAAsles. The hard part is to get everyone to wake up, understand we are the same team and work together. Delta is the best of the three big US carriers to do it, but management needs to do a better job now that they are rolling in profits. If I were the ramp I would look toward an in-house because, IMO, they have a better chance of fitting the needs of the Delta ramper not the needs of XX union international, AFL-CIO or the democratic party. Just my humble opinion though. 

 

[topDawg]

From this observer's perch, it's a mix of fear, complacency, and resignation.

also a lot of I got mine. Spokes are getting screwed by the hubs because its not all that hard to make benefited in a hub compared to a spoke. So "its not that bad" and people just stay as they are. 
 
We have the same problem in maintenance. Yeah we "should" be doing that work in-house but.....I still have a job so its not that bad. 
 
 
This industry has a big problem with screwing over the people who will work in it but don't yet and those that did work in it and don't anymore. How do we change this mind set is the million dollar question. 

 

[jimntx]

But, I don't see an argument that would impel DL management to reduce the number of RR and increase full-time permanent employees.  As I understand it, the RR have almost no benefits--particularly health benefits.  And health benefits are a huge cost in any company today.  (When I had spinal surgery for a ruptured disc in January, I was in the hospital for 4 days.  The street price for just the hospital bill--not the surgeons, or the anesthesiologist, or the therapists--was $46,000.)
 
Where is the incentive to provide benefits when the company can get away with hiring part-time employees?  Wal-Mart does it (or did it, I'm not sure if they still do) by allowing people to work no more than 39 hours/week.  They got their paychecks, but no health, no retirement, no nothing.  And, they take advantage of the fact that in a lot of these cities, a part-time job with no benefits is still infinitely better than no job at all because all the well-paying manufacturing industry in that city has been shipped overseas.  If all of a sudden well paying jobs with benefits became available in these cities, Delta and others would be in a world of hurt when it came to staffing the station.
 
Arguing that it is the right (or fair) thing to do just won't cut it.  Management (not just DL, all of them) doesn't care as long as the profit, the bonuses and the annual raises for management continue to pour in.

 

[Kev3188]

Jim-- Ready Reserves do not have any benefits except pass travel, and I believe they now get 1 week worth of paid personal time, but I'd need to double check that.

And you're right; as it stands, the company has no one to answer to, and the exponential growth of this program will continue. It's already on the ramp, in customer service, Res, maintenance, and GSE. Who's next?

 

[WeAAsles]

Directing this in response to Dawg.

AA does not need the RR program ever brought to our airline. They already have plenty of flexibility. Before the BK we used to have FT and PT protection. I was FT protected which meant that if there was a layoff in my station the company had to guarantee me a job somewhere in the system in my status. It could be through an opening or I bumped a junior guy either to a different location or to the street if he wasn't protected yet.

I'll explain the protection using myself as an example. The status protection came by whatever position you held on the DOS of a new contract. I hired on just before the signing of a contract. That contract passed and I was now PT protected. (Because I was PT at that moment) Everyone who hired on after me late that year had no protection. Our next contract to pass was in 01 and I was now FT so I gained FT protection. Whatever status people were again at DOS is the protection they gained and those hired after had none.

So the company absolutely had flexibility. Say I'm in a city and my life and family are already well established in that city. I'm FT protected but I really don't want or it's not cost effective for me to commute. Ok so instead of bumping the system or moving I go down to a PT position and yes bump the Junior unprotected member out the door. The guy essentially that the company doesn't need to keep on payroll.

Again the BK took away the protection status which I hope our negotiators can get back? Oh and BTW in our concessions in 03 we also gave the company flexibility in that area. We agreed that anyone with less time than July 1998 would not have protection status. So the company at that moment had 5 years worth of flexible hiring and displacements or layoff potential.

So again IMO Ready reserve is not a "needed" program. It's only use is to take advantage of people. There's no timeframe for when someone can get out of it because there is no "employment contract" that tells them if or when that will ever happen.

So no I would never agree with such a program and I would vote no if it were ever introduced (outside of BK) at my airline. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Jim-- Ready Reserves do not have any benefits except pass travel, and I believe they now get 1 week worth of paid personal time, but I'd need to double check that.
And you're right; as it stands, the company has no one to answer to, and the exponential growth of this program will continue. It's already on the ramp, in customer service, Res, maintenance, and GSE. Who's next?

There's a HUGE difference between being Part Time and having a somewhat known steady shift where a person can have another job if needed and a job where that company can basically call you in at any time at whim.

Obviously Delta has no problem finding these people who are willing to do it but I think the idea and position is insane personally. "Foot in the door" to doing something else in the airline would be the only interest I might have in it. Otherwise even a Walmart job would be a better option. (And I mean that and can't stand Walmart)

 

[townpete]

The IAM isn't, but DL employees sure are...

They are?

lol

 

[Kev3188]

Yep. Need a card,or have you already signed?

 

[townpete]

Yep. Need a card,or have you already signed?

Do you have any?

They make great compost for my flower bed.

 

[Kev3188]

Plenty of glossy mailers from the company for that...

 

[southwind]

Just spoke with a guy, who's in my shop now and came from ramp. He says the IAM doesn't stand a chance but, I guess it's always nice to dream!

 

[WeAAsles]

Just spoke with a guy, who's in my shop now and came from ramp. He says the IAM doesn't stand a chance but, I guess it's always nice to dream!

You may be right if the biggest defender of that push on this board has lost his focus?

And look. Right now I'm the only one in this thread. Just me.

Quite sad to see.