Bottom Line

[MCDP]

I would love nothing more than to see the industry change. It is an honorable profession. Did I like what was doing at AA? Yes. Do I miss it? Yes. However, in my 25 years as an A&P, it is sad to think that working in GA is actually more stable than working for an airline. Granted, the pay is generally lower, but you can make a decent living being paid almost as much as working for an airline. That is what the industry has come to. You go to work and clock in, and the only thing you are sure of is that you are guaranteed two more weeks of employment. That gets old fast. Three layoffs in five years from AA is enough. I can understand wanting to be compensated for your responsibilites but, as long as you have to fight the company, union, and the RLA, nothing is going to happen. There is no incentive on any side to increase pay, have better benefits, etc. They will drag it out for years all the while you fall behind as the rest of the world marches on. Delivering a safe, reliable airplane does give you a great sense of accomplishment. But in the end, it only goes so far. In my opinion, if there is no one wanting to enter the field because of the current conditions, the airline will have to sweeten the pot to attract the quality persons these positions require. In a sense, we have cut our own throats.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

So why don't you go work for an airline that is willing to compensate you fairly? Oh, yeah, because of the belief that only seniority (and not skill or effort) should dictate wages in your "profession." So you'd have to start over again. You've been wandering in the low-pay, low-morale desert thanks to the TWU for 25 years now, according to Bob Owens. Getting close to Biblical proportions. How much is enough?

Or why not start up your own MRO; you could charge airlines what you believe you're worth AND be your own boss. Plus, you could pay your employees what they're worth, raising everyone's morale. When your business does well, you'll profit. If you're not alone, perhaps you could begin the company with some equal partners.

About the bolded portion: Either you're a competent mechanic or you're not, right? Sorta like pilots, right? So the departure of some who seek higher pay or a different life won't cause the collective expertise or skill of the remaining members to decline, will it?

Seniority and skill-effort sort of go hand in hand. The more senior an individual becomes the more skill-effort they possess. If I did go to work, for say Southwest, they would be getting my 21+ years of experience for their bottom pay scale. Same goes for my days off/vacation. How much is enough? Depends on ones beliefs I would imagine.

When I hired on with AA I was excited because my goal of working for a major airline was becoming a reality. I had some very good instructors and to a man, each AMT I worked with in LGA who was senior to me and I was assigned to work with "took me under their wing". I learned from those before me and I do that when I can. The low pay and morale are close to Biblical proportions if you want to look at it that way. I look at it as a fight to save my profession.

You post that if people do not like it they should leave. Again, I ask why leave if you believe in protecting a valueable craft that is being attacked? I am glad George Washington didn't have you posting back in 1776.

 

[MCI transplant]

:unsure: ----- Ken, I hope you and yours are O.K. with all that is happening there in Cal.! Our thoughts and prayers are with all of you! Stay safe!

 

[MCDP]

:unsure: ----- Ken, I hope you and yours are O.K. with all that is happening there in Cal.! Our thoughts and prayers are with all of you! Stay safe!

Ken, I would also like to echo this posting. I hope that you and your family are safe.

 

[Bob Owens]

Thanks

To local 12 Proud I am not on agency fee, I thought about it at one time then I realized how much work it would be and decided that it was more work than I was willing to put into it, most people I know are not willing to put the extra effort into doing that, but I have always thought it was a great idea, most anti-TWU people do think it is a great idea, it is just extra work thought.

Well given the position taken here you would probably be better off going on agency fee, which is different than hand pay. Figure it out. how long would it take to write and mail 12 checks? At most an hour, plus $12 for postage and you would likely see around a $100 rebate, especially during major election years. How else could you make $78/hr with the TWU?

 

[Bob Owens]

I followed your link and checked your figures myself just to make sure and they were accurate, I showed the chart to the guys in my shop and we were all amazed at the huge difference
I do not know if you will get that much of a bump or not but there definetly is a huge difference.

you definetly surprised us ALL.

I can see your problem, and I feel bad for you but some of the guys in here are currently saying you chose to live there. :unsure:
After seeing the chart maybe you can understand why we are not quite as upset with the Pay and Benefits as you are.

Actually most of use were born "there", and as has been said before, if we werent here bringing in the revenue, then none of them would be working in Tulsa for AA.

 

[Bob Owens]

What I can't understand is how so many guys in the high-cost line stations keep showing up for less money than young police officers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than municipal bus drivers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than hard-working guys at a Mr Goodwrench dealership. To call them dedicated would be a huge understatement. They're addicted.

Trapped, would be a more fitting term.

 

[Raptor]

Well given the position taken here you would probably be better off going on agency fee, which is different than hand pay. Figure it out. how long would it take to write and mail 12 checks? At most an hour, plus $12 for postage and you would likely see around a $100 rebate, especially during major election years. How else could you make $78/hr with the TWU?

That's probably true Bob, but the thing is ALL my bills are on auto pay, I haven't wrote a check in years, also I don't even have any stamps since I have not sent paper mail in years either, I am pretty much on auto pilot, it free's me up to coach baseball, Football and wrestling, and generally spending time with my son, so given the choice of saving a few bucks, messing with the Union or fighting with the Company, I would rather take the hit and spend the time with my son, I guess it is a dedicated Dad kind of thing.

Besides the TWU needs the money. :angry: for Jim Little's retirement.

In other news a guy that use to be in my shop was fired last Friday on a rule 32 violation for sending or forwarding email that was not company related and was not considered appropriate.
He is a Union Steward, rumour has it that he will not be coming back, he is like 48 and has MS :unsure:

The company just keeps thinning those heads.

 

[Raptor]

Trapped, would be a more fitting term.

I like to think of it as heavily invested after 20+ years for many.

As far as addicted to the profession, I don't see much of that in my shop, after 20 years or so most
in my shop pretty much see Aviation as just a Job the thrill and excitement is gone.
An is example would be when our crew chief comes around asking for volunteers to train
on a new part he generally does not get many takers, he usually ends up having to force someone to
train against their will, speaking for myself I never volunteer for training anymore, I am content to
work the parts I already know then, leave as soon as possible to get on with my life.

 

[Bob Owens]

I showed the chart to all the guys in my shop and also the guys in the shop next door, it certainly made an impression on EVERYONE about 60 people, they all now have a better understanding of your predicament, I can't help but wonder why the chart was never shown to us from our Local 514 :unsure:
I thought Union guys were suppose to care about each other :unsure:

While EVERYONE agrees that you have a VERY valid complaint the concensous by the Majority was that they just could not get their minds around a 40,000 dollar difference in pay, I know what you are thinking why the hell not that is only fair, and I agree it does seem only fair, the People I talked to were having a hard time answering the question of why the hell not, they just said they could not get their minds around it. :unsure:

I dont think that most on the line expect to see $40,000 more than OH. We accept the fact that if we lived in Tulsa we would have disposable income. We have never sought parity, only pointed out the disparity.What we want is a reasonable wage for where we live. We dont want you to earn less, just dont make us accept a Tulsa based wage where its totally inadequate. Our gripe is that they seem to have the attitude that if $30/hr is good enough in Tulsa then it should be good enough everywhere else and if it isnt well too bad for them. They seem to like the fact that affiliation with us brings their pay way above where it would be otherwise but they dont seem to care that their easy ride comes off our families backs. A good wage in Tulsa sucks in NY. Personally I would rather see you guys fight along with us for a good NY wage which would be a fantastic wage in Tulsa, but if you are willing to accept good wage in Tulsa at least let us get fair wage where we are.

 

[Raptor]

I dont think that most on the line expect to see $40,000 more than OH. We accept the fact that if we lived in Tulsa we would have disposable income. We have never sought parity, only pointed out the disparity.What we want is a reasonable wage for where we live. We dont want you to earn less, just dont make us accept a Tulsa based wage where its totally inadequate. Our gripe is that they seem to have the attitude that if $30/hr is good enough in Tulsa then it should be good enough everywhere else and if it isnt well too bad for them. They seem to like the fact that affiliation with us brings their pay way above where it would be otherwise but they dont seem to care that their easy ride comes off our families backs. A good wage in Tulsa sucks in NY. Personally I would rather see you guys fight along with us for a good NY wage which would be a fantastic wage in Tulsa, but if you are willing to accept good wage in Tulsa at least let us get fair wage where we are.

I can agree with that, I don't think that is to much to ask at all, I don't know how the Majority in Tulsa would feel about it thought.
I did hear a rumour from one of the Union Stewards that there was one contract proposal where the line guys would have got a pretty nice pay difference but that the Overhaul Presidents said that Overhaul would not go for it.
I don't know if that is actually true or not, I for one would have no problem voting for the High cost area's having a premium based on the particular cost of living in a particular area.

Maye that will happen on this next contract Bob, that is not unreasonable at all.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

I dont think that most on the line expect to see $40,000 more than OH. We accept the fact that if we lived in Tulsa we would have disposable income. We have never sought parity, only pointed out the disparity.What we want is a reasonable wage for where we live. We dont want you to earn less, just dont make us accept a Tulsa based wage where its totally inadequate. Our gripe is that they seem to have the attitude that if $30/hr is good enough in Tulsa then it should be good enough everywhere else and if it isnt well too bad for them. They seem to like the fact that affiliation with us brings their pay way above where it would be otherwise but they dont seem to care that their easy ride comes off our families backs. A good wage in Tulsa sucks in NY. Personally I would rather see you guys fight along with us for a good NY wage which would be a fantastic wage in Tulsa, but if you are willing to accept good wage in Tulsa at least let us get fair wage where we are.

the only way the people in tulsa will fight for a better wage is to let them earn what we in the high cost areas are making. If that means they should make 40k less to understand our fight then so be it.
How would you do making 40K a year less RAPTOR
Would you then fight for better pay and benefits.
Lets implement the COLA and adjust the hourly wage accordingly.

 

[Bob Owens]

I like to think of it as heavily invested after 20+ years for many.

As far as addicted to the profession, I don't see much of that in my shop, after 20 years or so most
in my shop pretty much see Aviation as just a Job the thrill and excitement is gone.
An is example would be when our crew chief comes around asking for volunteers to train
on a new part he generally does not get many takers, he usually ends up having to force someone to
train against their will, speaking for myself I never volunteer for training anymore, I am content to
work the parts I already know then, leave as soon as possible to get on with my life.

Investments produce assetts,, liabilities produce expenses. Since we have nothing left, in fact come up short, every month, its hard to consider the 20+ years we put in as an investment.

 

[Raptor]

the only way the people in tulsa will fight for a better wage is to let them earn what we in the high cost areas are making. If that means they should make 40k less to understand our fight then so be it.
How would you do making 40K a year less RAPTOR
Would you then fight for better pay and benefits.
Lets implement the COLA and adjust the hourly wage accordingly.

No doubt

I could not live on 40K less, I like Bob's idea better instead of Tulsa losing money or fighting for Higher wages across the Board, I think Tulsa could get say a little more on this next contract and the line guys get alot more, then I would think everybody would be more or less happy.

Tulsa would have a good liveable wage and the line guys would have, as Bob says alot better wage than they currently do.


What I meant Bob is the time involved, I certainly would not want to start over at another company vesting in a new retirement, and working another 20 years.

In 10 years at age 55 I want and NEED to be retired ( done working forever ) I am already tired of working, there are many other things I would much rather be doing than going to work everyday doing something I don't want to do and dealing with stuff I don't want to deal with IE, A corrupt Union, A hostile Company, Employee's etc.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

:unsure: ----- Ken, I hope you and yours are O.K. with all that is happening there in Cal.! Our thoughts and prayers are with all of you! Stay safe!

MCI & MCDP,

Thanks for your concern. I am alright. Although Monday my wife had packed important papers, clothes, etc. and I had the kennel tied down to the back of my truck. There was a voluntary evacuation for our immediate area but we stayed till they gave the manadatory order, which did not come. With a three month old daughter, two dogs, three cats and two birds it would have been my wife driving the baby and me following with "Noah's Ark" to the nearest center. Ash covers EVERYTHING! The worse seems to be over for my part of San Diego. Something like 3500 homes have been lost I believe and Lord knows how many acres are burnt to a crisp.

I did not mean for this thread to go astray. Several of my fellow AMTs here in SAN were close to the fires and no one lost a home. My prayers go out to all those who have been affected. At one evacuation center they pretty much had more volunteers than evacuees. The support here is tremendous. Again, thanks for your words. They mean a lot. Ken