Bottom Line

[TWU-GOTTA-GO]

AMFAMAN do you think this inequality will ever be fixed if Tulsa, MCI and DFW are not made aware of the HUGE difference in cost of living. ?

How could someone be so disconnected from the real world not to recognize that it cost much more to live outside of Tulsa, and so therefore they need higher wages to maintain the same standard of living? Can these people read?

 

[Raptor]

How could someone be so disconnected from the real world not to recognize that it cost much more to live outside of Tulsa, and so therefore they need higher wages to maintain the same standard of living? Can these people read?

Well you know out of sight out of mind, If it is not put in their face they will not think about it.
I am not saying that they will care enough to do anything about it if it is put in their face, but
you won't know until you try. :unsure:

We all live in our own little world oblivious to anything outside of our little world, at least that seems to be the case here in Tulsa.

Hell I don't even watch the news. Too depressing

 

[FurloughedByAPFA]

"In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country".


Oh, honey, I beg to differ!

 

[Boomer]

I showed the chart to all the guys in my shop and also the guys in the shop next door, it certainly made an impression on EVERYONE about 60 people, they all now have a better understanding of your predicament, I can't help but wonder why the chart was never shown to us from our Local 514 :unsure:
I thought Union guys were suppose to care about each other :unsure:

While EVERYONE agrees that you have a VERY valid complaint the concensous by the Majority was that they just could not get their minds around a 40,000 dollar difference in pay, I know what you are thinking why the hell not that is only fair, and I agree it does seem only fair, the People I talked to were having a hard time answering the question of why the hell not, they just said they could not get their minds around it. :unsure:

One person did bring up that if a New Yorker chose to leave New York at a future date after making 40,000 dollars more for many years he would be able to sell the property that he accumulated in New York for a lot of money if that person then chose to move to say Tulsa he would not be equal anymore he would be a head because he would have all the money from the sale of the New York home.
He would only stay equal to a Tulsan if he chose to stay in New York forever.

As I said you have opened many eyes today, but I do not think the TWU will give New Yorkers that much of a pay increase but I could be wrong, it really would not bother me.
I would like to have more money who wouldn't but I am doing well as I am.

I don't know what to tell you, except since Tulsa has not figured out how to fix this situation in 60 years kind of tells you that just because someone is in a Union does not make them a GOOD Union man, it appears that the Majority have chosen the every man for himself motto. Even if they will not say it out loud. :unsure:

The answer is very easy from a Union perspective: just create language in the CBA that allows any Senior Member of the TWU to transfer anywhere a Junior Member of the TWU holds a position. Let Seniority carry the day like it does at the IAM.

By creating that type of provision, Union Members in low cost areas of the nation will vote according to how the totality of the agreement potentially affects them and their bretheren in higher cost of living areas.

 

[AMFAMAN]

The answer is very easy from a Union perspective: just create language in the CBA that allows any Senior Member of the TWU to transfer anywhere a Junior Member of the TWU holds a position. Let Seniority carry the day like it does at the IAM.

By creating that type of provision, Union Members in low cost areas of the nation will vote according to how the totality of the agreement potentially affects them and their bretheren in higher cost of living areas.

Yeah I guess the raptors of Tulsa would start paying attention real fast if they could be bumped out of their station at any time. <_<

 

[Boomer]

Yeah I guess the raptors of Tulsa would start paying attention real fast if they could be bumped out of their station at any time. <_<

EDITED for clarity: Boomer
AMFAMAN,
Roger last,
I think apathetic would be the last thing they would advertise.

 

[tech2101]

Now your hurting my feelings I guess I will just throw away my career for YOU because you called me a scab
and you want this and that.
You do of course know that word only means something to people who actually like Unions :unsure:
IE a Union man, as opposed to a man who is in a Union because his company has one. :huh:

I put up with it just as you put up with your bad pay and benefits and I put up with the Majority because it
like your pay and benefits is forced on me.

What a life Hugh, well at least I have my cows and crops etc.

Copied from the NWA board:

See you hard core Union guys all think alike


Nope I am not looking for another Job, been there and done that.
I'm working on being self employed hopefully it will work out, I'm ready to be done with Unions and Company's both.

Believe it or not you don't have to work for someone. B)
to prosper but I am not there yet if I make it don't worry I will be sure to come on this board to gloat a little.

How is that working out for you? How did that NWA stock work out for you?

I find it laughable to look back at your posts and see what you have become. The man is your master. You are happy with your lower wages, and he knows you will continue to take more.

We stood up and said no more as we watched quislings like you slither across the line and bow down after tough talk like the post above.

Ok, now this will be my last post in reference to you and your ilk.

 

[Raptor]

Copied from the NWA board:
How is that working out for you? How did that NWA stock work out for you?

I find it laughable to look back at your posts and see what you have become. The man is your master. You are happy with your lower wages, and he knows you will continue to take more.

We stood up and said no more as we watched quislings like you slither across the line and bow down after tough talk like the post above.

Ok, now this will be my last post in reference to you and your ilk.

People do change over time and as they get older, I have definetly changed, I do still play the stock market some but it is not as lucrative at the present time as it was back then there was a time when I was doing quite well in the stock markert, I keep hopeing those days will come back

I think everyone understands why we are more content here, it all comes down to cost of living.
I do understand why line guys are so unhappy but you know what they say life isn't fair.
most likely if New Yorkers were making the comparable 105,000 they would be alot more content as well.

I guess I am in pre-retirement mode I am winding down so it won't be a shock when I actually do retire.

 

[TWU informer]

Raptor,

You need to use the "I" and "Me" when making comments about Tulsa.

You are clearly a selfish decision maker and would cross a picket line in a heart beat. You admit this to be fact.

So please stop using "We" and "They" when you make reference to Tulsa.

Again, you don't speak for me so speak for yourself by using "I" and "Me" and leave the rest of us out of your problem life that you struggle with due to the guilt you feel for killing your friend who jumped off a cliff and your request.

 

[Raptor]

Raptor,

You need to use the "I" and "Me" when making comments about Tulsa.



So please stop using "We" and "They" when you make reference to Tulsa.

Again, you don't speak for me so speak for yourself by using "I" and "Me" and leave the rest of us out of your problem life that you struggle with due to the guilt you feel for killing your friend who jumped off a cliff and your request.

I do use I and Me quite often and when I use we and they I have no doubt that No one actually thinks I am speaking for
every single person in Tulsa, that is just common sense Come on Not even the President of the Local can do that.
I make it clear that it is my OPINION of what I think the Majority believes, and I get that from hearing comments at Union meetings the few that I have went to and talking to my fellow co-workers and from the past History. ( voting record etc. )

History does tend to support my statements, look at the voting record of Tulsa compared to other stations, does that not make a statement in and of itselt. :unsure: , it does not take a rocket scientist to see the picture, from the comments I have seen on this forum from many area's it appears to me that the Majority of posters have the same OPINION of Tulsa that I do. ( but not all )
Once again the reason comes from the History.

I could certainly copy and paste post quotes from many other people on this forum that are from other area's concerning their feelings towards Tulsa, they have those feelings for a reason, I have no doubt that their feelings do not come from me but more likely from the voting record, they are not baseless in my OPINION.
I do believe the Majority of Tulsan's feel differently about things than the Majority at the line stations and that is not a bad thing it is just different.

Are you saying that you think the Majority of Tulsa feel and think the same way as the line stations ?
That there really is not a difference between the Majority of us here in Tulsa and the line stations. ?
Is Tulsa getting a bum reputation unjustly ?

I believe most people are selfish and look out for themselves first and formost, I get that OPINION from just looking around and seeing how so many people are constantly boning each other.
In my shop some talk about how we are one happy family but the first time they call for Overtime you should see how people try to bone each other, it get's down right ugly let me tell you. It becomes every man for himself and screw the other guy

You are clearly a selfish decision maker and would cross a picket line in a heart beat. You admit this to be fact.

What I admit is that I am not a humanitarian, I do look out for myself and my family first and formost, to that end I will do whatever is best for ME and my family not what is best for you, if I feel I need to withold my labor because I think I am not being treated right then I will do that regardless of what anyone else does, that is just taking control of my own life, and vice versa, I don't think I need to put my job at risk because you are not happy, I'm not in this life for you, hell I don't even like you, so why would I do that ?

I also do not believe tha Majority always know what they are doing, I think the guys at Northwest that went back to work when they were issued the Ultimatum of come back now or you will never come back were smart, they are still making a good living and they have a job, the guys who chose not to come back if that is what makes them happy then that's fine too.

You seem to be in defensive mode to me, like you need to be accepted by the rest of the system or you have something to prove, don't take this stuff so personally man, this board is all just OPINIONS and we all have different ones, life would be boring if we all felt the same way.
when someone gets the wrong idea, I try to correct them and let them know I am not speaking for every single person in Tulsa, of course they already know that unless they are a complete moron.

Life is too short to be letting other people make decisions for you, I understand the whole Union concept but I really just don't agree
with it. I like being an individual with some control of my own life.

 

[Bagbelt]

Near where I live in LA (in the Valley), three bedroom ranches of 1400 - 1600 sq ft, typically built in the late '50s or early '60s are currently selling for about $550k to $650k depending on location. Gang infested industrial areas near Van Nuys tend to the lower end while safer, quieter neighborhoods in the Woodland Hills area tend toward the higher end. Almost nothing less than $500k anywhere in Los Angeles and, of course, sky's the limit on the other end.

I seriously doubt that any Tulsa AA overhaul employee lives in a house that small or that old. No doubt some live high on the hog in $250k mini-mansions (which would cost Ken MacTiernan in SAN or Bob Owens in NYC easily $1.0 million or $1.5 million or more).

AA's gotta have line maintenance in those high cost cities and it makes some sense to overhaul airplanes in lower-cost areas. Imagine if the overhaul shops were all at LAX, SFO, SAN, JFK, MIA and ORD (all much more expensive cities than TUL or MCI or DFW). If that were the case, there's no way the TWU membership would settle for the mid-60 thousands like it currently does. The guys from Tulsa or Kansas City or Dallas would demand $100k or $120k so they wouldn't have to live in a hovel in a gang-infested ghetto.

The huge problem is that the guys at the overhaul cities, although pissed off at the paycuts, aren't hurting anywhere near as much as the line stations. The concessions chopped the overhaul guys down from being some of the highest paid blue collar guys in their towns to perhaps somewhat better than average paid blue collar guys in those towns.

In the high-cost line cities, the paycuts chopped those guys down from average or less than average blue collar pay to damned near poverty pay.

I can understand how the overhaul guys keep coming to work every day. As I've posted before, it's still good money in TUL, MCI or DFW.

What I can't understand is how so many guys in the high-cost line stations keep showing up for less money than young police officers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than municipal bus drivers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than hard-working guys at a Mr Goodwrench dealership. To call them dedicated would be a huge understatement. They're addicted.

The pay isn't much different, it's that cops in this state can get paid for working 2 or 3 details at the same time at an 8 hour min. even if they are there only an hour. State jobs are sweet because they are not subject to market forces, at least in MA. As far as Mr. Goodwrench, most of the guys in the auto shop have second jobs at dealerships. As far as pay there is no comparison, in a dealership you only get paid when you turn a wrench. No breaks.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

What I can't understand is how so many guys in the high-cost line stations keep showing up for less money than young police officers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than municipal bus drivers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than hard-working guys at a Mr Goodwrench dealership. To call them dedicated would be a huge understatement. They're addicted.

Some of us would rather fight the corporate greed and mismanagement then start over at a profession that is of no interest

addicted and pissed off but worth every minute

 

[MCDP]

Some of us would rather fight the corporate greed and mismanagement then start over at a profession that is of no interest

addicted and pissed off but worth every minute

I used to think the same thing until AA laid me off. Then I found out that life is much better outside the industry. Now I get paid more and work even less.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

What I can't understand is how so many guys in the high-cost line stations keep showing up for less money than young police officers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than municipal bus drivers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than hard-working guys at a Mr Goodwrench dealership. To call them dedicated would be a huge understatement. They're addicted.

I, and many others, have spent a lot of time, money & energy to become licensed A & P Mechanics. Because of what has happened at AA I should pack up? I enjoy my PROFESSION, my job might have low morale but I have never wavered in my committment in providing a safe, airworthy aircraft. I beieve my craft & profession deserves to be compensated to the highest levels possible and I will do everything in my powers to see this happen. If everyone should just pack up and leave because things didn't go their way the airlines would have the lowest paid, most untrained individuals they were allowed to have.

What I do is important and safety sensitive. I want to be compensated for my responsibilities. I want the future A&P Mechanics to want to come into this craft & profession with the same passion and drive I have thus ensuring the safe maintenance of our nation's fleet of aircraft. And I am not alone.

 

[FWAAA]

I, and many others, have spent a lot of time, money & energy to become licensed A & P Mechanics. Because of what has happened at AA I should pack up? I enjoy my PROFESSION, my job might have low morale but I have never wavered in my committment in providing a safe, airworthy aircraft. I beieve my craft & profession deserves to be compensated to the highest levels possible and I will do everything in my powers to see this happen. If everyone should just pack up and leave because things didn't go their way the airlines would have the lowest paid, most untrained individuals they were allowed to have.

What I do is important and safety sensitive. I want to be compensated for my responsibilities. I want the future A&P Mechanics to want to come into this craft & profession with the same passion and drive I have thus ensuring the safe maintenance of our nation's fleet of aircraft. And I am not alone.

So why don't you go work for an airline that is willing to compensate you fairly? Oh, yeah, because of the belief that only seniority (and not skill or effort) should dictate wages in your "profession." So you'd have to start over again. You've been wandering in the low-pay, low-morale desert thanks to the TWU for 25 years now, according to Bob Owens. Getting close to Biblical proportions. How much is enough?

Or why not start up your own MRO; you could charge airlines what you believe you're worth AND be your own boss. Plus, you could pay your employees what they're worth, raising everyone's morale. When your business does well, you'll profit. If you're not alone, perhaps you could begin the company with some equal partners.

About the bolded portion: Either you're a competent mechanic or you're not, right? Sorta like pilots, right? So the departure of some who seek higher pay or a different life won't cause the collective expertise or skill of the remaining members to decline, will it?