Bottom Line

[local 12 proud]

Got to hand it to ya Raptor, you may not like the Union (TWU) but they sure like you!

I make my own choices that are in MY best interest.
Anyone who wants to be a sheep and be led by anyone, TWU, International, Union, Friend, whoever GOOD LUCK

Personally I think you would be just plain STUPID, NOT BRAVE.

Just curious since your so anti-union (TWU) do you hand pay or on agency fee status?

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Raptor,

I'm curious.

You mentioned many things, but nothing about AMFA.

Did you sign an AMFA card ?


ps,
Sorry about your friend !

 

[Raptor]

Raptor,

I'm curious.

You mentioned many things, but nothing about AMFA.

Did you sign an AMFA card ?
ps,
Sorry about your friend !

Thanks

To local 12 Proud I am not on agency fee, I thought about it at one time then I realized how much work it would be and decided that it was more work than I was willing to put into it, most people I know are not willing to put the extra effort into doing that, but I have always thought it was a great idea, most anti-TWU people do think it is a great idea, it is just extra work thought.

New Hampshire I was heavily involved in the last AMFA drive as an organizer, I signed a card and got many cards signed, I spent hundreds of dollars of my own money giving away FREE AMFA t shirts and printing off literature to hand out on base and at the Turnstiles.
I met Chuck Shaulk, Ken McTiernan, Don Rogers and Dave Stewart were the guys heading up the drive here in Tulsa, although me and Dave butted heads many times because he was one of the leaders of the drive and I refuse to be led by anyone it is just not my thing.
We still but heads today sometimes on this Forum.

The reason I wanted AMFA is not because I particarly like Unions but because I figured if I was going to have to be in one it might as well be a good one with decent By-Laws and Constitution, I have read All of AMFA BY-Laws and Constitutioin as well as the TWU and AMFA beats them hands down.

Personally I think all the NEW blood and energy that came with it is the reason the last AMFA drive came so close to making it.
I am sure you saw the Pay and Benefits chart that was everywhere during the last drive It was my idea to come up with it, so I did all the endless research and made the chart to be spread around everywhere, it whas on Chuck's TWU local website in New York for a long time before they made him take it down, I am sure you saw it.
I think someone should make up another one for this next Negotiation so we can see where we fall in the Industry.

I was on the companies hit list for quite some time after that drive, and they still drug test me quite frequently today.
That drive drained the last bit of fight I had in me out of me, Now I really just want to get out of this company in one piece as soon as possible before I get fired for something stupid.

Most of my fight is gone but I still have a little left to take on anyone who chooses to launch personal attacks against me, I can be very difficult to beat when I am in the fighting mood.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

One more reason that I think Tulsa will buy pretty much buy anything the Company comes up with.
I think the Company will threaten to sell of Maintenance in order to scare the masses in Tulsa.

The line guys will not be concerned about that because the know they will still have a job but,
here in Tulsa we oke's will be panicking because if they sell off Maintenance even if we have
the senority to bump say someone in New York how many oke's do you think would exercise
that seniority :unsure: not me for sure, most Oke's would not last 2 weeks in a fast paced, crowded
city like New York, therefor we would be out of a Job.

After 20+ years I am not looking to be unemployed and starting over for a little extra money. <_<

NO I don't think Tulsa will take a chance on AA selling Maintenance, let alone bankruptcy, etc.
We have a good thing here and I am pretty sure the Majority does not want to lose it.

Face it with 7,000 people Tulsa controls the vote.
If we get half of what we lost back, ( considering we will be compared to the wage and benefits of the bankrupt carriers ) then we
will be doing good.
I personally do not think we will get half back thought as that would put up way above Northwest, United, Delta, and Continental,
and that is just not likely to happen, the odds are not in favor.

Your post is drenched in defeatest attitude. I am not mocking you. You state that you and many "oke's" will not stand up and fight for our careers, but rather shake in your boots when management says, "BOO!"

If you cave into fear now you enslave yourself to living in fear all your life.

As for this post, "ongoing pissing contest between labor and management over the bonuses."

This is NOT a pissing match. IT IS AN INSULT THAT WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN! Oh, unless it seems if you are an "oke" living in Tulsa shaking in your boots.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

That's what I meant a spin-off but I spin-off would not be AA anymore but a subsidary of AMR.
Meaning it basically would be a whole new company with new employee's new everything.
I think I will pass.

Raptor,

You just said that many "oke's" would not move to a fast paced place like NY. So I would assume most would stay in the very low cost of living area called Tulsa. They would stay with any spin off earnimng less. They are afraid remember? Living in fear allows those who control you to do what they want. And that is work more for less pay & benefits. BRILLIANT!

 

[Raptor]

As Bob mentioned the Lake incident was a learning experience for ME.
I learned to always trust your instincts because they are probably right, and NEVER be led astray by anyone because
if you make a choice and it is the wrong one you will be the one living with it, regardless of whether it was the choice you
wanted to make or you just let someone else make it for you, as my friend did.

You have to be your own Man and make your own choices regardless of how Popular or Unpopular they may be.
I can live with a bad choice I make but It is a whole lot harder to live with a bad choice someone else makes.

 

[Raptor]

Raptor,

You just said that many "oke's" would not move to a fast paced place like NY. So I would assume most would stay in the very low cost of living area called Tulsa. They would stay with any spin off earnimng less. They are afraid remember? Living in fear allows those who control you to do what they want. And that is work more for less pay & benefits. BRILLIANT!

Yes Ken I believe that is correct, I for sure would stay here in Tulsa, I do not know if I would work for the spin off or maybe start over, it would depend on what they were offering, but I really hope there is no spin off as I believe everyone in Tulsa would lose big time, I would much prefere we stick with what we have.

Are they living in fear or making a choice, as Bob said you have to weight the risk's against the potential gain, I think the Majority of People in Tulsa are simply content with what we have, we are doing quite well compared to other area's of the country, try it you might be surprised at how far your money will go here.

It is simply a choice in my Opinion, it is not so much about fear as it is contentment, why fight when you can spend your time and energy with your family enjoying life.

You know me Ken did I strike you as the scared or coward type when we met or do you think I am just making a choice at this stage of my life that is best for me. ?

 

[AMFAMAN]

I think the Majority of People in Tulsa are simply content with what we have, we are doing quite well compared to other area's of the country, try it you might be surprised at how far your money will go here.

You're making it very clear that the company obviously didn't take enough in 2003 from Tulsa if you're still content. If you speak for the majority as you think you do, I would suggest that your local refuse to accept any gains in the new contract and instead demand that the company give that money to those where the money does not go far at all. If your assessment of Tulsa is correct, a contract with no gains for Tulsa and all the gains given to those in need should pass Tulsa with ease because you're happy, and why would you care that others are brought up to your standard of living.

 

[Raptor]

You're making it very clear that the company obviously didn't take enough in 2003 from Tulsa if you're still content. If you speak for the majority as you think you do, I would suggest that your local refuse to accept any gains in the new contract and instead demand that the company give that money to those where the money does not go far at all. If your assessment of Tulsa is correct, a contract with no gains for Tulsa and all the gains given to those in need should pass Tulsa with ease because you're happy, and why would you care that others are brought up to your standard of living.

They took enough trust me, once again it is a risk vs potential gain that should be looked at from each individual.
Giving the high cost area's a premium pay was brought up at the Tulsa special meeting and everyone did clap, I have not heard of much resistance to the idea from people I have talked to so as far as I know there is not much resistance to people who live in high cost area's making more than we do.

I believe the line guys in HIGH COST AREAS ONLY will probably get a small premium pay over us in the next contract.

 

[AMFAMAN]

They took enough trust me, once again it is a risk vs potential gain that should be looked at from each individual.
Giving the high cost area's a premium pay was brought up at the Tulsa special meeting and everyone did clap, I have not heard of much resistance to the idea from people I have talked to so as far as I know there is not much resistance to people who live in high cost area's making more than we do.

I believe the line guys in HIGH COST AREAS ONLY will probably get a small premium pay over us in the next contract.

A small premium, why not demand equal standard of living, why not give up some more to help them out, afterall you're content?

Here is a comparison between Tulsa and New York:

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costoflivin...mp;x=25&y=8

Salary in Tulsa OK:
$68,000
Comparable salary in Nassau County NY:
$111,949.2

If you move from Tulsa OK to Nassau County NY...

Groceries will cost: 36.185% more
Housing will cost: 190.13% more
Utilities will cost: 41.1% more
Transportation will cost: 9.005% more
Healthcare will cost: 18.584% more

 

[Raptor]

A small premium, why not demand equal standard of living, why not give up some more to help them out, afterall you're content?

Here is a comparison between Tulsa and New York:

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costoflivin...mp;x=25&y=8

I followed your link and checked your figures myself just to make sure and they were accurate, I showed the chart to the guys in my shop and we were all amazed at the huge difference
I do not know if you will get that much of a bump or not but there definetly is a huge difference.

you definetly surprised us ALL.

I can see your problem, and I feel bad for you but some of the guys in here are currently saying you chose to live there. :unsure:
After seeing the chart maybe you can understand why we are not quite as upset with the Pay and Benefits as you are.

 

[AMFAMAN]

I can see your problem, and I feel bad for you but some of the guys in here are currently saying you chose to live there. :unsure:

Would you rather have AA leave the LAX, SFO, ORD, BOS, JFK, LGA, EWR, DCA, MIA, to name a few markets so all the workers can move to Tulsa, and live like a Tulsan. I am sure FWAA or eolsen can give you the numbers, but revenue wise I would say without those markets, you have no job, you have no airline. Tulsa to DFW is not going to cut it revenue wise, so moving is not an option, someone has to do the work.

 

[FWAAA]

Near where I live in LA (in the Valley), three bedroom ranches of 1400 - 1600 sq ft, typically built in the late '50s or early '60s are currently selling for about $550k to $650k depending on location. Gang infested industrial areas near Van Nuys tend to the lower end while safer, quieter neighborhoods in the Woodland Hills area tend toward the higher end. Almost nothing less than $500k anywhere in Los Angeles and, of course, sky's the limit on the other end.

I seriously doubt that any Tulsa AA overhaul employee lives in a house that small or that old. No doubt some live high on the hog in $250k mini-mansions (which would cost Ken MacTiernan in SAN or Bob Owens in NYC easily $1.0 million or $1.5 million or more).

AA's gotta have line maintenance in those high cost cities and it makes some sense to overhaul airplanes in lower-cost areas. Imagine if the overhaul shops were all at LAX, SFO, SAN, JFK, MIA and ORD (all much more expensive cities than TUL or MCI or DFW). If that were the case, there's no way the TWU membership would settle for the mid-60 thousands like it currently does. The guys from Tulsa or Kansas City or Dallas would demand $100k or $120k so they wouldn't have to live in a hovel in a gang-infested ghetto.

The huge problem is that the guys at the overhaul cities, although pissed off at the paycuts, aren't hurting anywhere near as much as the line stations. The concessions chopped the overhaul guys down from being some of the highest paid blue collar guys in their towns to perhaps somewhat better than average paid blue collar guys in those towns.

In the high-cost line cities, the paycuts chopped those guys down from average or less than average blue collar pay to damned near poverty pay.

I can understand how the overhaul guys keep coming to work every day. As I've posted before, it's still good money in TUL, MCI or DFW.

What I can't understand is how so many guys in the high-cost line stations keep showing up for less money than young police officers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than municipal bus drivers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than hard-working guys at a Mr Goodwrench dealership. To call them dedicated would be a huge understatement. They're addicted.

 

[Raptor]

Would you rather have AA leave the LAX, SFO, ORD, BOS, JFK, LGA, EWR, DCA, MIA, to name a few markets so all the workers can move to Tulsa, and live like a Tulsan. I am sure FWAA or eolsen can give you the numbers, but revenue wise I would say without those markets, you have no job, you have no airline. Tulsa to DFW is not going to cut it revenue wise, so moving is not an option, someone has to do the work.

I showed the chart to all the guys in my shop and also the guys in the shop next door, it certainly made an impression on EVERYONE about 60 people, they all now have a better understanding of your predicament, I can't help but wonder why the chart was never shown to us from our Local 514 :unsure:
I thought Union guys were suppose to care about each other :unsure:

While EVERYONE agrees that you have a VERY valid complaint the concensous by the Majority was that they just could not get their minds around a 40,000 dollar difference in pay, I know what you are thinking why the hell not that is only fair, and I agree it does seem only fair, the People I talked to were having a hard time answering the question of why the hell not, they just said they could not get their minds around it. :unsure:

One person did bring up that if a New Yorker chose to leave New York at a future date after making 40,000 dollars more for many years he would be able to sell the property that he accumulated in New York for a lot of money if that person then chose to move to say Tulsa he would not be equal anymore he would be a head because he would have all the money from the sale of the New York home.
He would only stay equal to a Tulsan if he chose to stay in New York forever.

As I said you have opened many eyes today, but I do not think the TWU will give New Yorkers that much of a pay increase but I could be wrong, it really would not bother me.
I would like to have more money who wouldn't but I am doing well as I am.

I don't know what to tell you, except since Tulsa has not figured out how to fix this situation in 60 years kind of tells you that just because someone is in a Union does not make them a GOOD Union man, it appears that the Majority have chosen the every man for himself motto. Even if they will not say it out loud. :unsure:

 

[Raptor]

Near where I live in LA (in the Valley), three bedroom ranches of 1400 - 1600 sq ft, typically built in the late '50s or early '60s are currently selling for about $550k to $650k depending on location. Gang infested industrial areas near Van Nuys tend to the lower end while safer, quieter neighborhoods in the Woodland Hills area tend toward the higher end. Almost nothing less than $500k anywhere in Los Angeles and, of course, sky's the limit on the other end.

I seriously doubt that any Tulsa AA overhaul employee lives in a house that small or that old. No doubt some live high on the hog in $250k mini-mansions (which would cost Ken MacTiernan in SAN or Bob Owens in NYC easily $1.0 million or $1.5 million or more).

AA's gotta have line maintenance in those high cost cities and it makes some sense to overhaul airplanes in lower-cost areas. Imagine if the overhaul shops were all at LAX, SFO, SAN, JFK, MIA and ORD (all much more expensive cities than TUL or MCI or DFW). If that were the case, there's no way the TWU membership would settle for the mid-60 thousands like it currently does. The guys from Tulsa or Kansas City or Dallas would demand $100k or $120k so they wouldn't have to live in a hovel in a gang-infested ghetto.

The huge problem is that the guys at the overhaul cities, although pissed off at the paycuts, aren't hurting anywhere near as much as the line stations. The concessions chopped the overhaul guys down from being some of the highest paid blue collar guys in their towns to perhaps somewhat better than average paid blue collar guys in those towns.

In the high-cost line cities, the paycuts chopped those guys down from average or less than average blue collar pay to damned near poverty pay.

I can understand how the overhaul guys keep coming to work every day. As I've posted before, it's still good money in TUL, MCI or DFW.

What I can't understand is how so many guys in the high-cost line stations keep showing up for less money than young police officers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than municipal bus drivers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than hard-working guys at a Mr Goodwrench dealership. To call them dedicated would be a huge understatement. They're addicted.

All VERY good valid points, I agree with your assesment in housing that sounds about right.

I do understand the problem, I am just not sure if it will be fixed, unless there are alot more GOOD Union Men who are willing to step up and say this needs to be fixed, remember I am not a Union Man per say I am a Man who is in a Union there is a huge difference Humanitarian wise, maybe there are alot more people who fall into my catagory than there are who fall into the other catagory and that is why this situation still exists.

AMFAMAN as I said I spread the chart and these post's around today and some sypathy for your plight has been seen today if that means anything to you.


AMFAMAN do you think this inequality will ever be fixed if Tulsa, MCI and DFW are not made aware of the HUGE difference in cost of living. ?