Why Not Restore and More?

[TWU informer]

That is a statement I heard often from many of my fellow AMT's at NWA.

Of course, there is no way you guys will ever go on strike, or be locked out as long as you are with the TWU...

And today there is no NWA

 

[Bob Owens]

Bobby you need a new set of drums............you have beaten the same drum for so long you have worn the drum out and then you go delusional...................some things you write make some of us think, but your constant rant is a bit overboard..................get new drums and a new script...........

I like the drum I have just fine. If you dont like what I write simply scroll on by. You dont seem to object to the company's constant rant of iminent demise if we dont settle for less, I've been hearing that for over 22 years. Nor do you seem to tire of the TWUs silence in challenging the companys rants, in fact they usually "beat the same drum".

The company has worked hard, with the help of our very own International, to lower our expectations, I'm working to reverse that. There is no reason why we should not expect to be paid what plumbers, electricians and other skilled workers get. At the very least we should expect the same buying power we had in 2002 what with all the productivity increases and concessions as far as benifits we've given over the last twenty years. In fact there is no reason we shouldnt expect to be the highest paid Aircraft mechanics out there, we are far from that.

That you should feel that its "delusional" to say we are worth as much as plumbers, electricians or even other aircraft mechanics, such as those at SWA or UPS, is sad. It just goes to show how effective the company and the International have been at lowering your expectations.

-160 less airplanes
-Millions of gallons less fuel burned
-Fuel costs down by the billions
-24100 less employees
-revenue per employee increased by over $100,000 and going up as fuel goes down.

I want it all back, and that means COLAs too. If you are worried about the company feel free to donate your paycheck to it but keep in mind that the people who are running the show, the ones who are telling you that you should continue to do without, havent hesitated in the least to grab whatever they can for themselves.

 

[tech2101]

And today there is no NWA

You are correct. At least AA does not want to become a "virtual" airline.

You see where that landed NWA.

What I meant was to point out that you are never irreplaceable. No matter how high your seniority is, or how important you think you are to a company, they can and will do without you, if they feel it is necessary (or to prove a point). That is what many learned at NWA. Always keep an updated resume and don't burn any bridges.

Back on topic...

I wish you all the best in these negotiations. I like the "Restore and More" philosophy.

I feel the pendulum is beginning to swing back the way of the employees. It is about time. If the TWU does not sell you out before the economy starts to turn the corner, you should be well positioned to regain much of what was lost in the past 15+ years.

 

[Observer]

I like the drum I have just fine. If you dont like what I write simply scroll on by. You dont seem to object to the company's constant rant of iminent demise if we dont settle for less, I've been hearing that for over 22 years. Nor do you seem to tire of the TWUs silence in challenging the companys rants, in fact they usually "beat the same drum".

The company has worked hard, with the help of our very own International, to lower our expectations, I'm working to reverse that. There is no reason why we should not expect to be paid what plumbers, electricians and other skilled workers get. At the very least we should expect the same buying power we had in 2002 what with all the productivity increases and concessions as far as benifits we've given over the last twenty years. In fact there is no reason we shouldnt expect to be the highest paid Aircraft mechanics out there, we are far from that.

That you should feel that its "delusional" to say we are worth as much as plumbers, electricians or even other aircraft mechanics, such as those at SWA or UPS, is sad. It just goes to show how effective the company and the International have been at lowering your expectations.

-160 less airplanes
-Millions of gallons less fuel burned
-Fuel costs down by the billions
-24100 less employees
-revenue per employee increased by over $100,000 and going up as fuel goes down.

I want it all back, and that means COLAs too. If you are worried about the company feel free to donate your paycheck to it but keep in mind that the people who are running the show, the ones who are telling you that you should continue to do without, havent hesitated in the least to grab whatever they can for themselves.

settle for less I don't think so. you have yammered here for years, it has gotten childish. All one has to do is have an interest in what has happened and is happening. Why have we not gone for mediation. This has dragged on far too long. The idea in any negotiations is to get in and out quickly, isn't it? Going into this negotiations there was a laundry list of items, when it should have been one thing $$$$$, never mind going thru the book item by item. $$$$$ is the only thing. Your constant rantinmgs remind me of the child that found out through the neighbor kid, there ain't any Santa..........

 

[tech2101]

Going into this negotiations there was a laundry list of items, when it should have been one thing $$$$$, never mind going thru the book item by item. $$$$$ is the only thing.

Three words: Scope, Scope, and Scope.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Trebor at Star Telegram made a great point in an article yesterday: AA is the first legacy carrier to go through major contract negotiations since the round of concessions (voluntary in AA's case, court-ordered in others) early this decade.

So if AA were to "restore and more" that would put it at an instant and serious disadvantage relative to its competitors on labor costs.

 

[FWAAA]

Trebor at Star Telegram made a great point in an article yesterday: AA is the first legacy carrier to go through major contract negotiations since the round of concessions (voluntary in AA's case, court-ordered in others) early this decade.

So if AA were to "restore and more" that would put it at an instant and serious disadvantage relative to its competitors on labor costs.

Jane, you ignorant s%@t. 😀

Don't you know that the other airlines' employees would quickly receive matching raises, moving in lockstep with AA's employees? AA wouldn't be at any "disadvantage." Your words are just the embodiment of corporate greed and slavery. 😀

Seriously, though, I've lost track of how many billions of dollars the "restore and more" campaign would cost. The pilots alone are demanding over $3 billion a year, according to AA, not counting the one-time bonus demanded by the APA. As to the TWU, probably close to a billion dollars a year to restore the 2001 contract pay plus CPI-sized COLAs for the past 7-8 years. As to the APFA, could be another billion dollars a year to do the same thing. That's a subtotal of probably $5 billion a year. Dunno where AA gets that money.

Oh, wait - I do know. Simply raise fares enough to bring in an additional $5 billion (or enough to equal $5 billion when added to the projected 2009 fuel cost savings v. 2008 fuel costs). Easy. Done. Just raise fares about 20% or 25% (or more, since those fare hikes would drive away some passengers). Might take fare hikes of 30% or 40% (which would drive even more passengers away).

 

[The Goose]

And today there is no NWA

That was set in motion in late 2004/early 2005. Remember the almost simultaneous Chapter 11 filings by both Delta and Northworst - that was all planned and it happened exactly as had been intended.

 

[Bob Owens]

Jane, you ignorant s%@t. 😀

Don't you know that the other airlines' employees would quickly receive matching raises, moving in lockstep with AA's employees? AA wouldn't be at any "disadvantage." Your words are just the embodiment of corporate greed and slavery. 😀

Seriously, though, I've lost track of how many billions of dollars the "restore and more" campaign would cost. The pilots alone are demanding over $3 billion a year, according to AA, not counting the one-time bonus demanded by the APA. As to the TWU, probably close to a billion dollars a year to restore the 2001 contract pay plus CPI-sized COLAs for the past 7-8 years. As to the APFA, could be another billion dollars a year to do the same thing. That's a subtotal of probably $5 billion a year. Dunno where AA gets that money.

Oh, wait - I do know. Simply raise fares enough to bring in an additional $5 billion (or enough to equal $5 billion when added to the projected 2009 fuel cost savings v. 2008 fuel costs). Easy. Done. Just raise fares about 20% or 25% (or more, since those fare hikes would drive away some passengers). Might take fare hikes of 30% or 40% (which would drive even more passengers away).

Well first of all what are you basing your figures on? You need to consider that the pool of workers that gave back $1.6 billion was much larger than the pool of workers looking for full restoration-including Cola back to 2002.

There's 24000 less of us now, and revenue is up by over $6 billion. The loss of headcount alone already paid for most of the raises. We wouldnt even be cutting into the additional $6 billion.

If you figure all 85,000 emplyees got a $25,000/year raise(average per employee, some, like the pilots considerably more, others considerbly less) that would only come out to $2.1 billion. To hit your estimate of $5billion the average raise would have to be be $50,000 a year average per employee.

Also how do you figure that a 30% increase in labor costs would drive fares up by as much as 40% when labor costs only make up around 25% of total costs?

If labor is 25% of total costs and we increase labor by 30% the increase in total costs would only be around one quarter of the labor increase. So a 30% increase in labor costs would only translate to roughly a 7.5% increase in total costs.

If they used that as an excuse to jack up fares by 40% they are just being greedy, dont blame the workers.

I'm suprised at you FWAAA. To stay quiet for so long on this and then jump in with that post is quite out of charecter.

 

[FWAAA]

Well first of all what are you basing your figures on? You need to consider that the pool of workers that gave back $1.6 billion was much larger than the pool of workers looking for full restoration-including Cola back to 2002.

I'm basing the $5 billion estimate on AA's numbers, which may be of dubious validity:

May 27, 2008

American recently completed a financial impact analysis of APA's Section 6 proposals and determined that implementing these items would have a serious detrimental impact on the company's economic stability. If we agreed to the APA's suggestions, here are a few of the financial repercussions we could face.

Our annual pilot costs would be increased by approximately $3 billion in recurring expenses, and this is outside of the signing bonus proposed by APA, one-time pension contribution and various other one-time investments. This translates to approximately a $350,000 increase per active pilot, assuming a constant operating plan.

Our pilot cost per block hour - which is already the industry's highest - would increase more than 150 percent, placing AA at a crippling disadvantage compared to our competitors.

In addition to the above permanent, recurring cost increases, APA's requested changes to our scope agreement would place at risk up to $3.5 billion of codesharing revenue over the near term.

The APA's A Plan pension proposal would require the company to immediately contribute an additional $1 billion to keep funding levels above 80 percent and avoid restrictions on lump sum payments.

http://www.aanegotiations.com/apaUpdates.asp

AA is saying that the pilot cost per block hour would be 2.5 times its current figure (this is for others' benefit, since I know that you realize that a 150% increase means 2.5 times current cost). In prior threads, I detailed the pilots' earlier demand for a 30%+ hourly raise, followed later by a demand for 50.5% increases from current pay (the proposal dissed above by AA).

The $1.6 billion in concessions was composed of two components: paycuts and headcount reduction. So I tend to agree with you that restoring wages for those who remain to 2002 levels shouldn't cost even $1.6 billion.

But the "more" part of "restore and more" must be the expensive part. That and the other demands by the pilots that AA says would cost $3 billion annually. Plus all the one-time demands by the pilots re: pensions, signing bonus, etc.

There's 24000 less of us now, and revenue is up by over $6 billion. The loss of headcount alone already paid for most of the raises. We wouldnt even be cutting into the additional $6 billion.

If you figure all 85,000 emplyees got a $25,000/year raise(average per employee, some, like the pilots considerably more, others considerbly less) that would only come out to $2.1 billion. To hit your estimate of $5billion the average raise would have to be be $50,000 a year average per employee.

The 9,500 pilots alone want raises averaging over $100k each. At least $1.0 billion for pilots. AA says $3.0 billion, which makes their number sound unreliable. 35,000 TWU members (give or take) want $30,000 more each year, right? That's another billion dollars. Add in the 18,000 FAs and their demands.

Also how do you figure that a 30% increase in labor costs would drive fares up by as much as 40% when labor costs only make up around 25% of total costs?

If labor is 25% of total costs and we increase labor by 30% the increase in total costs would only be around one quarter of the labor increase. So a 30% increase in labor costs would only translate to roughly a 7.5% increase in total costs.

If they used that as an excuse to jack up fares by 40% they are just being greedy, dont blame the workers.

I'm suprised at you FWAAA. To stay quiet for so long on this and then jump in with that post is quite out of charecter.

It was tongue in cheek. I don't think fares can be raised any higher than they are right now (and generate any more revenue). Of course, fares could be raised, but that would reduce total revenue, IMO. I trust the people at AA who spend their entire working career trying to analyze/approximate/guess as to the revenue effect of fare increases. If AA raised fares 10% across the board tomorrow, I don't think AA's total revenue would increase by a single dollar. That's because I believe that AA is pricing right now for maximum revenue (at the current capacity).

 

[Bob Owens]

The $1.6 billion in concessions was composed of two components: paycuts and headcount reduction. So I tend to agree with you that restoring wages for those who remain to 2002 levels shouldn't cost even $1.6 billion.

Maybe in the pilots agreement but not in the TWU agreement. Thats why the pilots got the 9% raise the first year-to make up for the job losses. The TWU didnt get any credit towards their share of the 1.8 billion from job losses which were significant. Around 4000 from Title 1 alone, nearly 30%.

As far as the pilots demands. The pilots are merely reacting to the companys position of absurdity. The company offers nothing and demands further concessions so they ask for the sky.

 

[Hopeful]

That is a statement I heard often from many of my fellow AMT's at NWA.

Of course, there is no way you guys will ever go on strike, or be locked out as long as you are with the TWU...

It panned out to be true, No?
Unless a senior person chose to SCAB, there is no more NWA as far as that person is concerned.

As for my statement, I was referring to layoffs. If they ever get to my seniority as a result of a LAYOFF, there is no AA left.

 

[Hopeful]

Bobby you need a new set of drums............you have beaten the same drum for so long you have worn the drum out and then you go delusional...................some things you write make some of us think, but your constant rant is a bit overboard..................get new drums and a new script...........

So, you're tired of our drum beat? But you don't seem to be tired of the Violin ballad the company plays continuously about how bad things still are but LOCKED in executive PUPS.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

So, you're tired of our drum beat? But you don't seem to be tired of the Violin ballad the company plays continuously about how bad things still are but LOCKED in executive PUPS.

AA got more goin on than a violin ballad. They pay for the philharmonic to beat the same BS its no wonder why people actually believe AA's Bullsit poor me blues in A minor
😀

 

[Bob Owens]

35,000 TWU members (give or take) want $30,000 more each year, right? That's another billion dollars.

In 2002 there was approximately 36000 TWU members at AA , today its down to around 25,500. So you are off by around 30%. So it would only be around $765 million to give every TWU member a $30,000 a year payraise. If you figure the average airline worker was paid around $65000/yr then they slashed another $683 million from the TWU payroll by getting rid of all those jobs that our concessions were supposedly saving. So the company would only have to dip around $82 million into that $6billion of increased revenue.

TWU Headcount Oct 2002 Dec 2008

Title 1 14039 9955
Title 2 2544 2068
Title 3 17174 11983
Title 4 161 93
Title 5 1825 1320
Total 35743 25419

Despite the elimination of over 4000 Title 1 mechanics the recall list appears to be empty because the list indicates new hires with seniority dates of Nov 2008.


One would expect that with so many jobs eliminated there would be thousands on Recall, but there arent. Under the TWU contract the recall list is for 10 years so that means that everyone who wanted to come back already came back.

I've been told that in New York there are no step raises for Title II, new hires are hired in at top pay because they cant get anybody.

There arent qualified people out there waiting to take our jobs.