local 12 proud
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- Mar 5, 2004
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Raptor, I won't bother rehashing what Informer just said other than to say he speaks for alot more here in Tulsa than you my friend!
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- Thread starter Bob Owens
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Raptor, I won't bother rehashing what Informer just said other than to say he speaks for alot more here in Tulsa than you my friend!
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #17
You left out some key numbers. Allow me to add to the facts:
Full-year revenue (billions):
2002 $17.42
2001 $18.96
2000 $19.7
1999 $17.7
Total Wage/Benefit expense (billions):
2006 $6.813
2005 $6.755
2004 $6.719
2003 $7.264
2002 $8.392
2001 $8.032
2000 $6.783
1999 $6.120
Total Fuel expense (billions)
2006 $6.402
2005 $5.615
2004 $3.969
2003 $2.772
2002 $2.562
2001 $2.888
2000 $2.495
1999 $1.696
The fuel bill in 2006 was $4.7 billion more than in 1999 while revenue was about $4.8 billion more. Wages were $700 million more last year than in 1999. In a nutshell, fuel price increases have almost completely soaked up the additional revenue since 1999 even though wages have only increased modestly in that time. Over the last few years, wages went way up (with the TWA purchase and with the the contract increases won by the APA, TWU and APFA), and have now come back down. Revenues went up - and peaked in 2000 (which wouldn't be matched again until 2005), fell with the 2001 recession and terrorist attacks and have since recovered. Fuel has done nothing but go up, wiping out the revenue recovery.
I like how you chose 2003 as the year to which you made comparisons. THAT didn't skew the conclusions at all.
Best of luck recovering those wage cuts. Given oil is currently at $90/bbl, I doubt it will be a cakewalk. If you could get the Tulsa, Kansas City and AFW mechanics to agree to small or no raises, the line guys could probably get to WN wages. Good luck with that.
Look who is skewing facts.
1-You left out what the profits were in 1999. Break even is good enough for me, I dont care if they ever see 1999 profits again, especially if it means I have to settle for poverty wages in order for them to get them.
2 1999 was pre TWA, of course total wage expense will go up despite massive wage cuts when you add thousands more employees. The fact is that most employees are earning less than they were in 1999.
I chose 2003 because that was the year they claimed they needed all these concessions and the TWA merger was complete, I could have chosen 2002, that being the first full year of integration, dont think it would have mattered that much since if anything wages were even higher for that year but its obvoius why you chose 1999, a year that is prior to the addition of TWA and one of AMRs most profitable ever.
By the way I believe that AA locked in at $60/barrel.
They can afford it, maybe they should go to a judge and have him impose a favorable contratct for the airlines on the oil companies!
I chose 1999 because AMR's fuel bill was lower that year than just about any year since deregulation and because its 1999 revenues just about matched its 2003 revenues. I didn't mention profits, since you naively posted that revenue alone was enough to justify your dream of a WN payscale.
Hardly. From the 3rd quarter earnings release:
Facts. You should try them sometime. For the full year, AA has locked in 34% of its full year consumption at an average price of $66/bbl. Unless the price of oil crashes dramatically, fuel will likely be more expensive this year than any other year.
Uhh, yeah. Good luck with that.
While we're in Fantasyland, maybe AA should just "invest" its current cash balance in lottery tickets. A big win would mean unlimited money for all.
TWU-GOTTA-GO
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- Nov 22, 2006
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An excellent point as his comments do nothing but encourage more disappointment towards overhaul and Tulsa for sure. For years those of us on the line have heard, and for the most part respected the pleas of not bashing Tulsa. This guys comments are just begging for a Tulsa bashing and is obviously trying to destroy what little unity that exists between the line and overhaul. Sorry, but it's not going to happen Raptor.
I am speaking for myself
Good for you do you want a Medal or a chest to pin it on.
Is it fear or is it a choice I am happy with what I make, I am happy with my benefits, I don't need to take unnecessary chances when I am perfectly happy with what I have, if you are not happy then fight or make a change or whatever it takes to make YOU happy.
Dude I NEVER said I was speaking for you or the Overhaul station, I merely gave my OPINION on what I think the Majority will do, I believe we have already seen the future 5 years ago with our last contract.
We did not fight then and at that time no companies had filed bankruptcy so we assumed AA would never do it, since then of course 3 Major Airlines have filed bankruptcy indicating that they were not bluffing and many Mechanics lost their jobs in a failed Strike, these are all cold facts, only a fool does not proceed with caution after such event's.
Do you think that people are somehow braver after having seen all that devistation :unsure: I for one do not beleive that is the case but that is just my OPINION, if you do not like it then that is TOO BAD FOR YOU
, deal with it dude or just get pissed off whichever one suites you best. There are many types of cowards if you know what I mean, and we both know that you do, you had a chance to prove how brave you are and you declined REMEMBER.
I am brave in MANY different ways, I choose not to act STUPIDLY
How about you don't worry about what I do and instead do what you want to do, you don't tell me what to do bud, NOBODY DOES
I do what I want, when I want, and how I want, and I generally don't care to much what anybody thinks about it, but of course you already know that.
You don't know crap and you will not be convincing me of how brave you are bud, I know what you are about.
Talk is cheap, action takes a whole lot more work, PROOVE IT
I could care less if you post anything, your all talk and no action anyway.
Exactly it is just your OPINION that does not mean crap anymore than mine does, we will see who is right and who is wrong in about a year, I have NO doubt that you assumed that the concession would never pass and of course it did from all three Unions, we all could have said NO but we said yes, I knew it was going to happen and it did, I am not an Optimist or a pessimist I am a realist, history does repeat it' self all the time.
trust me I don't like being right all the time, it is what it is. So deal with it.
Keep getting pissed off if you want I kind of like it.
when it's you, It's like fuel to the fire.I am not encouraging anything, Once again this is my OPINION, I could be wrong but that rarely ever happens.
you give your OPINIONS and I will give mine, one of us will be right and one of us will be wrong, it is just that simple.
If it turns out I am wrong in a year from now I will admit it, if it turns out you and Informer are wrong and I was right I have not doubt that you will admit it right.
Hey it's all about who's right and who's wrong right.
Just remember the concession, and what happened then, it did not have to happen but it did, what happened then. :unsure:
NO Strikes, NO war, No nothing but a huge loss. :angry: Where were all the brave non coward folks then, I was one of the Brave soles that actually voted NO, but hindsight is 2020 if I could go back and do it again knowing what I know now I would probably have changed my vote.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,959
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It's not a threat -- it is a matter of public record. Spinning off the maintenance bases into their own subsidiary isn't what is being pushed by outside investors -- they're looking to have an equity stake sold off in order for it to be a benefit to shareholders. Sabre had a fairly obvious market value, and issued its own stock. That's going to be a much harder sell for the maintenance bases, so aside from one of the existing MRO's buying into AA M&E, I don't see it happening, and AMR has proven time and time again that they don't like giving up control of vital infrastructure.
Heck, there are still people who still question the decision to sell off Sabre, and after years of having to pay thru the nose for basic services that were previously at-cost, AA finally recreated some of the IT capabilities they had when Sabre was still a division of AA.
So, I don't even consider it a threat, which is too bad, because it's a fact that the line salaries would improve if it weren't for the one-check-fits-all approach that the current TWU contracts have, and there's even less hope of a regional market rate coming into the equation.
In other words, you will go to work for whatever they offer you. What if you are happy with what you have and everyone else is not? Are you willing to cross a picket line because "I don't need to take unnecessary chances when I am perfectly happy". Hmmmm. :unsure:
Hey Raptor, why don't you go ahead and give them the lowest number you are willing to work for, so they can lowball that. Then you can decide if you are "perfectly happy" making an hourly wage in the teens for the next 6 years.
If guys like you are a majority at AA all of your co-workers are in serious trouble.
Given the above market rates AMR agreed to for a "pump it and dump it" spin off for SABRE; nothing is beyond the pale.
Given how that sale has worked out in the longer term, I would doubt that AMR would want to put those low hanging eggs into someone elses' basket.
I still wonder if the threat of a sale for one of the MX overhaul bases did not contribute to the damaging statement made, and broadcast over this website, from one of the officers from AFW.
Of course, given the secrecy statements signed by the TWU, we will never really know.
Given how that sale has worked out in the longer term, I would doubt that AMR would want to put those low hanging eggs into someone elses' basket.
I still wonder if the threat of a sale for one of the MX overhaul bases did not contribute to the damaging statement made, and broadcast over this website, from one of the officers from AFW.
Of course, given the secrecy statements signed by the TWU, we will never really know.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #25
I beleieve the figure was around $7/ticket as per the WSJ. The fact is that pricing is still trial and error , the airlines have raised their prices repeatedly and guess what? They still kept coming!!! Yes they have raised the prices and people are still flying!! It could have a lot to do with the fact that in many cases its still cheaper to fly than drive.
The fact is the companies are still burning cash. They are not being run intelligently. Spending $2.5 million on fuel saving Goldhophers doesnt make sense if the APUs are left running all night for the lack of a $20,000 generator. The ten minute taxi doesnt burn as much fuel as a fully loaded APU running for 10 hours.
AA spinning off OH? Would be good for the line guys, not so good for OH. The AMR subsidiary would be the highest paying MRO, they would have nowhere to go but down, the line guys however, if only OH was spun off, would be one of the lowest paid and a more realistic picture would be revealed that would indicate that AA has one of the lowest labor costs.
If we were all spun off then we would no longer be employees of an "Air Carrier", would that remove us from under the RLA? If so, thats a good thing too. Sure it exposes us to some risks but it would present even more opportunities.
Do I think they will do it? No, because the high labor costs myth is not only used against maintenance but other workgroups as well. Things are working very well for AA as they are. If they sell off OH then the profits from the sale itself weaken AAs bargaining position. Labor costs would be lower, revenue would be higher.
I think we have already established what the Majority think, didn't we, look at you 2003 contract. :unsure: I mean CONCESSION.
ANY QUESTIONS
Once again some people are forgetting the MASSIVE CONCESSION that I voted NO on against the Majority who voted YES, and against my Union leaders who told me to vote yes on it, where were all the brave soles then :unsure: :unsure:
the Majority voted YES not NO
Were they ALL cowards or just smart. :unsure:
I personally do not like being ruled by the Majority, or an International or a Union,, the bottom line is I want to do what works for me not the Majority or the Minority, I know what you are thinking then why did I join a Union, I didn't, I hired on at a company who had a Union, I don't like it anymore than you like your pay but I live with it just as you live with your pay, would I cross a line if it were in MY best interest, do I even have to answer that question, of course I would.
Would I work for AA at any price, of course not but my price and your price may not be the same, so if you are not happy with what you make you have options, you can quit and go work for Southwest, or you can withold YOUR labor and hope they do not replace you, just don't expect me to do it just because you are STUPID enough to do it.
speaking of STUPID as I told Informer there are many types of bravery, many years ago I use to call people cowards but I kind of shyed away from that and I will tell you why, Many people who live in Tulsa know of the cliffs at tenkiller lake the biggest of which is called Big Daddy, it is a 80 foot cliff down to the water, I had dived off that cliff many times and considered myself BRAVE for doing it, although many considered it STUPID, my Best Friend had never dived from Big Daddy, so I called him a coward in an attempt to manipulate him into diving, he was not having any of that so against his better judgment he dived, unlike me he was not experienced at diving off of cliffs, so he landed on his back and split it wide open, I dived in to try to save him to no avail, he bled to death in less than 5 minutes in front of me and about 50 other people sitting on the cliff.
So you tell me was he BRAVE or was he STUPID or was he both, and does it really matter in the big picture because he is Dead now.
My point, I hope is clear, what one person considers BRAVE another might consider just plain STUPID and vice versa, there is a fine line between STUPID and BRAVE, I consider myself smart enough to not let some Idiot goad me into doing something STUPID just because he calls me a coward had my friend had the guts to say, Dude I am not a coward I am just not STUPID then he would still be alive today.
A STUPID person in my OPINION is someone who is STUPID enough to let somone else make decisions for him.
I'm sure my friend whould agree IF he were here today.
Trust me guys I know what I am doing and I ain't going to do nothing STUPID, if you want to then knock yourself out if it does not pan out for you then it will be YOUR problem right. Not mine.
I will put my bravery up against anyone here but I will choose the contest, it will not be something STUPID like choosing not to work when I am making a good living and I am happy with my Pay and Benefits and I am really happy about retiring FOREVER in less than 10 years now, I am finally over the hump, it will be something like diving off of an 80 foot cliff, something that I am sure will turn out much better for me than my opponent.
I make my own choices that are in MY best interest.
Anyone who wants to be a sheep and be led by anyone, TWU, International, Union, Friend, whoever GOOD LUCK
Personally I think you would be just plain STUPID, NOT BRAVE.
No need to respond or comment any further on anything you say scab.
Now your hurting my feelings
I guess I will just throw away my career for YOU because you called me a scab and you want this and that.
You do of course know that word only means something to people who actually like Unions :unsure:
IE a Union man, as opposed to a man who is in a Union because his company has one. :huh:
I put up with it just as you put up with your bad pay and benefits and I put up with the Majority because it
like your pay and benefits is forced on me.
What a life Hugh, well at least I have my cows and crops etc.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #29
I think we have already established what the Majority think, didn't we, look at you 2003 contract. :unsure: I mean CONCESSION.
ANY QUESTIONS
So you tell me was he BRAVE or was he STUPID or was he both, and does it really matter in the big picture because he is Dead now.
He was stupid, like we all have been at one time or another in our lives, unfortunately this was not a learning experience for him, it was one for you.
The Brave thing to do would have been to stand up to you. Tell you to go pound salt, chances are you would still be friends and he would still be alive if he had. What did he have to gain by jumping off a cliff? Your approval? What did he have to lose? Obviously everything. Some risks are not worth taking but that doesnt mean that we should avoid all risks.
Fighting for your career is not quite the same as jumping off a cliff because either option, fighting or submitting, both present risks. If you fight, at worst, you may lose your job, if you dont fight you will lose what the job once offered.
The sad fact is that from the outside, from what we have seen in the past, you appear to be more right than wrong about your coworkers in Tulsa. Tulsa has voted in favor of every concessionary contract that has come down the pike. Their representatives, that the people of Tulsa chose to represent them, blocked any and every attempt at trying to mitigate the pain that Tulsa has caused to those who live in the high cost areas that generate the revenues that pay Tulsa. They have kept the TWU in place. The talk of union and solidarity as they screw us. We have seen glimmers of hope in the past, but have always been dissapointed. The current President from Tulsa appears to be no different than Burchette of any of the clowns who came before him.
I agree with everything you said here Bob, the smart thing for him to do would have been to tell me to pound salt and we definetly would still be friends today and I really wish he had done just that, I also agree with your risk assesment the point with me is the risk of losing my retirement and my career do not justify the possible gain of a few dollars or benefits, it is just not worth the risk for me at this stage of my life and I believe many others feel the same way as the average age at AA now is 46, 10 years ago or maybe not even that long, I would be all for taking such a risk but not at this late stage of the game.
And I do understand some wanting to take the risk I think that is fine, a man has to do what he has to do, and yes unfortunatly for you I think I am right about Tulsa.
Your a smart Man Bob and I appreciate you understanding my point although you may not agree with my position.
I also appreciate your comments not many here will be as wise, to understand my point.
You have demonstrated quite effectively that you DON'T have to personally attack a person to get your view across.
I will endeaver to do the same. Good Post.
