Bottom Line

[MCI transplant]

:unsure: ------ Thanks for the update Ken! Good to know all of you in SAN are O.K. Have you heard anything about the boys in LAX?

 

[b777conehead]

One more reason that I think Tulsa will buy pretty much buy anything the Company comes up with.
I think the Company will threaten to sell of Maintenance in order to scare the masses in Tulsa.

The line guys will not be concerned about that because the know they will still have a job but,
here in Tulsa we oke's will be panicking because if they sell off Maintenance even if we have
the senority to bump say someone in New York how many oke's do you think would exercise
that seniority :unsure: not me for sure, most Oke's would not last 2 weeks in a fast paced, crowded
city like New York, therefor we would be out of a Job.

After 20+ years I am not looking to be unemployed and starting over for a little extra money. <_<

NO I don't think Tulsa will take a chance on AA selling Maintenance, let alone bankruptcy, etc.
We have a good thing here and I am pretty sure the Majority does not want to lose it.

Face it with 7,000 people Tulsa controls the vote.
If we get half of what we lost back, ( considering we will be compared to the wage and benefits of the bankrupt carriers ) then we
will be doing good.
I personally do not think we will get half back thought as that would put up way above Northwest, United, Delta, and Continental,
and that is just not likely to happen, the odds are not in favor.

raptor you say you have 20 years with aa they will tell you vote for the pos of a contract we will not spin maint off if you do. after the ink is dry they will spin it off any way.we need to get snap back then a raise and benfit increase from there nothing else will do in my opinion .we deserve it and they owe it to us.with coments like your makeing is not doing us any good fight for what we deserve and do not be in fear

 

[Raptor]

raptor you say you have 20 years with aa they will tell you vote for the pos of a contract we will not spin maint off if you do. after the ink is dry they will spin it off any way.we need to get snap back then a raise and benfit increase from there nothing else will do in my opinion .we deserve it and they owe it to us.with coments like your makeing is not doing us any good fight for what we deserve and do not be in fear

Listen I really do not believe the company can afford to do that, they must compete with the other Airlines that is just good common business sense, we currently have approximatly the same pay and benefits as Northwest, United, Continental and Delta, the fact that they filed bankruptcy is irrelavant we still must compete with them or perish.

If they do spin off Maintenance then if really won't matter to Overhaul what happens to the line will it, we won't work for AA anymore.

I do not believe all Mechanics will get snapback, as that would put AA cost's at much higher than the other Airlines, what I do think will happen is that possibly the high cost area line guys will get close to what we lost back and probably some benefits back, I think the Overhaul stations will probably get a lessor raise and the some benefits back.
This is not what I would like to happen, I like money as much as the next guy, I am just saying from past experience that is what I believe will happen, we will see in about a year if I was right or not.
Overhaul has not been on strike in like 40 years that should tell you that it will not happen and even if it did the President would force us back to work so the bottom line is we will get what we always have got, what the company is willing to give us, we will not force AA to give us anything that they do not want to give us, it has not happened in the last 40 years and it won't happen now, history proves this statement to be true.

I personally am fine with EVERYONE keeping our Pensions and the line guys getting a big raise and Tulsa with a smaller raise, it won't be equal as Bob pointed out but the parity will be closer.

If you are on the Line Conehead then you very well might get a snapback or close to it, if you are at an Overhaul base then you probably won't see as much as you would like.
Just my OPINION I could be wrong, but I do have a pretty good track record on guessing contracts.

It's not fear it is just realistic, I don't live in fairy tell land I live in the real world.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------- Raptor, Agreed!!! I feel your scenario is fair! But since when has AA ever been fair! I think ,in this case, that would probably be a "best case" scenario! Now I'm being realistic! -------The T.W.U. won't strike, but we could make it offal "Uncomfortable" for them while we're at work!

 

[Raptor]

<_< ------- Raptor, Agreed!!! I feel your scenario is fair! But since when has AA ever been fair! I think ,in this case, that would probably be a "best case" scenario! Now I'm being realistic! -------The T.W.U. won't strike, but we could make it offal "Uncomfortable" for them while we're at work!

I'm kind of surprised you agreed with that scenario because I figured the unhappy guys would always be unhappy no matter what they got and the happy guys would always be happy no matter what they got, but I could be wrong maybe it is actually possible to make unhappy guys happy.
This scenario really would be fair, hopefully Overhaul guys will see it that way, it is not AA that would most likely have a problem with it, because there are alot less line guys than overhaul guys, if anybody would have a problem, it would be the overhaul guys not being able to understand that the line guys need more money just to be equal to us, the Union needs to do a better job of educating the Overhaul stations about the huge difference in standard of living if everybody gets the same pay.

And I do agree about making things uncomfortable for AA, that really should start at the beginning of Negotiations not at the end which is what normally happens.
The Union is not smart enough to figure this out, they must start making things rough at the beginning not at the end, the sooner AA gets uncomfortable the sooner they will want to settle and get back to comfortable.

Why would AA want to settle in less than the full year and then some if we are continuing to work together and busting out work, it would not be in their best interest to be in a hurry. Right !! :unsure: So we need to start making them feel our pain immediatly.

Count me in on that plan, I certainly don't mind making AA uncomfortable on THEIR dime.


Do you think our Local Presidents will be able to get together and agree that a difference in Pay between stations is OK ??? :unsure:

 

[Bob Owens]

Listen I really do not believe the company can afford to do that, they must compete with the other Airlines that is just good common business sense, we currently have approximatly the same pay and benefits as Northwest, United, Continental and Delta, the fact that they filed bankruptcy is irrelavant we still must compete with them or perish.

Obviously the company and its lapdog union have done a good job at lowering your expectations. Do you think the executives were worried whether or not AMR could "afford it" when they stuffed millions in bonuses in their pockets? Forget about how AA will pay you, thats not our job, our job is to get every penny we can for our families.

Continental, United, Delta , NWA,, Everybody is flying full so even if we were flying the same routes it wouldnt matter, there are barely enough seats to go around. Compete or perish? Who has perished lately? All these bankruptcies and every major carrier came out the other side, if bankruptcy couldnt kill them why are you worried about AMR?

I know I've brought this up before but your statement compells me to repeat it again. In the spring of 2001 I attended an IRRA conference. Every speaker from government and the industry spoke of "unrealistic expectations" of airline workers. Herman Bonilla, from the Bush administration even went as far as saying that the administration wanted cheap fares for the public and high profits for the airlines so workers had to accept lower wages. Lets not these greedy scumbags win. Expect what is right and fair, the execs certainly dont sacrifice.

If they do spin off Maintenance then if really won't matter to Overhaul what happens to the line will it, we won't work for AA anymore.

Spin it off to who? Who would be looking to buy a FBO with the highest paid OH mechs in the industry? Despite higher wages AA's OH is the biggest competative edge they have over competitors, they wont be shedding it. It would be the best thing that could happen to the line, but it wont happen. It would destabilize AAs whole cost control structure.

I do not believe all Mechanics will get snapback, as that would put AA cost's at much higher than the other Airlines

Would it? Sure its labor costs for maintenance might be higher but as SWA proves well paid highly motivated mechanics save money through better operations. If we were paid and run like SWA AA could probably go 10 years before hiring another mechanic. They could continue to allow attrition to lower the headcount and ratchet up the work on those remaining.

This is not what I would like to happen, I like money as much as the next guy, I am just saying from past experience that is what I believe will happen, we will see in about a year if I was right or not.

Well if we dont start a drive for another union you can count on it. If the TWU is not put on notice you will get screwed.

Overhaul has not been on strike in like 40 years that should tell you that it will not happen and even if it did the President would force us back to work so the bottom line is we will get what we always have got, what the company is willing to give us, we will not force AA to give us anything that they do not want to give us, it has not happened in the last 40 years and it won't happen now, history proves this statement to be true.

We have other options besides striking.

It's not fear it is just realistic, I don't live in fairy tell land I live in the real world.

Real world? If people limited their aspirations to "reality" as they were told it is this industry would not exist.

 

[Raptor]

Obviously the company and its lapdog union have done a good job at lowering your expectations. Do you think the executives were worried whether or not AMR could "afford it" when they stuffed millions in bonuses in their pockets? Forget about how AA will pay you, thats not our job, our job is to get every penny we can for our families.

I agree it is our job to get every penny we can get, but I also think we should think about what they can afford so that they do not go into bankruptcy, not that the TWU would ever be able to push AA that hard, maybe the Pilots.

Continental, United, Delta , NWA,, Everybody is flying full so even if we were flying the same routes it wouldnt matter, there are barely enough seats to go around. Compete or perish? Who has perished lately? All these bankruptcies and every major carrier came out the other side, if bankruptcy couldnt kill them why are you worried about AMR?.

Bankruptcy is what I mean by perish, not necessarily go completly out of business although that has happened look at TWA,
I am not willing to put the company into Bankruptcy, I do not come out a head in that scenario. Sorry
I do think the company should be reasonable and as I said they could give Overhaul a small raise and line stations a big raise therefor
the overall cost would not be to much higher than other Airlines. Northwest, United, etc.

I know I've brought this up before but your statement compells me to repeat it again. In the spring of 2001 I attended an IRRA conference. Every speaker from government and the industry spoke of "unrealistic expectations" of airline workers. Herman Bonilla, from the Bush administration even went as far as saying that the administration wanted cheap fares for the public and high profits for the airlines so workers had to accept lower wages. Lets not these greedy scumbags win. Expect what is right and fair, the execs certainly dont sacrifice.

I know the execs don't suffer, but that is just the way things are they never have suffered and they never will, that is part of reality.
Life is not fair remember, it is what it is they are in control so they get most of the dough.

Spin it off to who? Who would be looking to buy a FBO with the highest paid OH mechs in the industry? Despite higher wages AA's OH is the biggest competative edge they have over competitors, they wont be shedding it. It would be the best thing that could happen to the line, but it wont happen. It would destabilize AAs whole cost control structure..

Alot of people would buy it, their would not be any highest paid OH Mechanics, it would be all brand new Mechanics at brand new ultra low pay rates with no benefits, they would not be buying the personell only the facilities and tooling.
Yes it would be really great for the line, and it could very easily happen if Overhaul were to push AA too hard which luckily we will not do.

Would it? Sure its labor costs for maintenance might be higher but as SWA proves well paid highly motivated mechanics save money through better operations. If we were paid and run like SWA AA could probably go 10 years before hiring another mechanic. They could continue to allow attrition to lower the headcount and ratchet up the work on those remaining.

We all know why Southwest Mechanics get paid so well, because their Overhaul is farmed out they are mostly just line Mechanics, I have no interest in AA turning into Southwest, it would be great for you but not for me, I will pass thank you.

Well if we dont start a drive for another union you can count on it. If the TWU is not put on notice you will get screwed.
We have other options besides striking.
Real world? If people limited their aspirations to "reality" as they were told it is this industry would not exist.

Yes we do have other options besides striking and as I said I am for those options and we should start them now not 12 month's from now.

How do you like my new Avatar. He looks hungry.........or maybe he is just a few million years old and tired as some have suggested.

 

[TWU-GOTTA-GO]

I agree it is our job to get every penny we can get, but I also think we should think about what they can afford so that they do not go into bankruptcy, not that the TWU would ever be able to push AA that hard, maybe the Pilots.

So who died and made you CFO? Why not cut management salaries and bonuses by $300 million and restore M&R's old contract.

We all know why Southwest Mechanics get paid so well, because their Overhaul is farmed out they are mostly just line Mechanics, I have no interest in AA turning into Southwest, it would be great for you but not for me, I will pass thank you.

You obviously have never been to Love field in Dallas and see the C-Checks being done everyday.

Hey why not check out their latest bid:

http://amfa11.com/postings/bids/2008BidSheetFinalRev1.pdf

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

:unsure: ------ Thanks for the update Ken! Good to know all of you in SAN are O.K. Have you heard anything about the boys in LAX?

I do not know how many AA AMTs from the LAX area have been affected due to the fire. I am on my days off and have called the SAN AMTs who were in the fire's area. No one said anything about LAX guys. I can only hope they were not in the fire's path.

 

[Raptor]

So who died and made you CFO? Why not cut management salaries and bonuses by $300 million and restore M&R's old contract.

You obviously have never been to Love field in Dallas and see the C-Checks being done everyday.

Hey why not check out their latest bid:

http://amfa11.com/postings/bids/2008BidSheetFinalRev1.pdf

That's an easy one to answer, because they are in charge, if you want to see executive salaries cut all you have to do is become and executive, preferrably the CEO and then cut all your fellow co-executives salaries.

When can you get started on that for US ? :unsure: , I hear their are some openings at Harvard and Stanford etc.

When you have the power to cut their salaries and raise our's, I am sure you will do that for us, and I for one will certainly appreciate you for it.

 

[Raptor]

The way I see it the Executives are the ones with the real power, that is why they make the big bucks and we don't, when you are dealing with a superior power it is far smarter to use a more suttle hand than a slap in the face.

An example would be if your supervisor or crew chief wants you to do something that you just don't want to do, you don't just tell him to kiss your a$$ you make him wish he had picked someone else for the job in a suttle way, because flat out refusing is a battle that you cannot win.

So we should take a simular tactic with Management we have already showed them that we can make them money by working together etc. now we should show them that we can also go the other way in a suttle way, not a slap in the face like striking, because slapping them in the face is a battle the we most likely will not win, the company with 6 billion dollar and many resources is far more equipped to last in a strike than most pay check to paycheck Mechanics.

I think we should start extra high quality Maintenance following the book to the letter and stop working together starting Nov. 7 when the executives decide they would like to give us a decent contract then we could go back to working together to make the company money, that is the smart way to win this battle in my Opinion, suttle manipulation where they are more uncomfortable but our comfort level remains the same.

 

[AMFAMAN]

How do you like my new Avatar.

I think it's appropiate based on many of your prior comments to have a dinosaur whose head bobs up and down.

 

[Bob Owens]

I agree it is our job to get every penny we can get, but I also think we should think about what they can afford so that they do not go into bankruptcy, not that the TWU would ever be able to push AA that hard, maybe the Pilots.

Look I'm not saying we should be looking for high six figures, reasonable pay for the skills we present, the liability we carry and the sacrifices we make. If a plumber who works normal hours with weekends and holidays off makes more than us there is something wrong.

Bankruptcy is what I mean by perish, not necessarily go completly out of business although that has happened look at TWA,

TWA ended up being aquired. Businesses go out of business all the time and its never due to high wages, its due to poor management.

I am not willing to put the company into Bankruptcy, I do not come out a head in that scenario.

You do not come out ahead if you give up everything just because they threaten BK. Just ask those workers from Pan Am and Eastern how sacrificing to save the company worked out for them.

I do think the company should be reasonable and as I said they could give Overhaul a small raise and line stations a big raise therefore the overall cost would not be to much higher than other Airlines.

Whatever we get everyone else will get so the costs would be comparatively the same.

Alot of people would buy it, their would not be any highest paid OH Mechanics, it would be all brand new Mechanics at brand new ultra low pay rates with no benefits, they would not be buying the personell only the facilities and tooling.

I dont agree. I doubt that the City of Tulsa, which owns the airport would allow AA to transfer the rights to use the property without certain guarantees that their tax revenue steam would not be negatively affected. Look at how Kansas City took AA to court and AA kept that place open.

Yes it would be really great for the line, and it could very easily happen if Overhaul were to push AA too hard which luckily we will not do.

Well if you have the rest of the TWU supporting you then you are less at risk. Between Fleet Service and Line maintenance we could still shut the place down.

We all know why Southwest Mechanics get paid so well, because their Overhaul is farmed out they are mostly just line Mechanics, I have no interest in AA turning into Southwest, it would be great for you but not for me, I will pass thank you.

Obviously you believe what the TWU and AA have been telling you. As I have been saying all along when SWA has the volume of work to make doing the work in house cost effective they will expand their OH operations and as you can see in TWU-Gotta -Go post-http://amfa11.com/postings/bids/2008BidSheetFinalRev1.pdf
they are.

Dont believe that OH is a liability for AA. Tulsa has been a major factor in what has propelled this company to the number one spot. It not only saves them money because it puts out a better product than these hack shops but now it even generates income from the company further offsetting maintenance costs.

 

[upsilon]

How do you like my new Avatar. He looks hungry.........or maybe he is just a few million years old and tired as some have suggested.

Maybe you asked this on another thread and maybe i replied; but in any case, I can't make out anything about your avator. Maybe others can, but not me.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------- Raptor, How does a Company with the kind of money AA has on hand go into bankruptcy? Remember that both Northworst, and Us Air rushed into court on the same day. Just before the new Bankruptcy Laws took effect. They did this for a reason! The new laws arn't as Corporate friendly as before, and take a lot of Control out of managements hands! Something I don't think Our-Pay and Co. would tolerate! So, I feel a treat of Bankruptcy should not be taken as seriously!-------As for how I feel about some sort of COLA in high expense areas, remember,------- I did say I came from a line background!----- All this is nothing new! TWA paid their people in HNL a COLA years ago!!! If the IAM could work it out, why not the TWU?