Bottom Line

[aafsc]

It is my belief that aafsc is not a Fleet Service Clerk at all, but instead a TWU Official pretending to be a fleet service clerk and spread propaganda against any union that might be threat to the TWU dues collection.

He may be correct that my skill is being subsidized by the AMT in the Airline Industry. I don't agree with his opinion, but he is entitled to it. However, there is one very huge difference between my skill and the fleet service clerk. The National Mediation Board has determined that my skill is within the craft or class scope of the Mechanic and Related group. This means the welder and the AMT will always be required by law to be in the same union. On the other hand, the NMB has ruled that the fleet service clerk is NOT in the community of interest craft or class with the AMT. Thus, the AMT has not a choice as to his affiliation in union structure with the welder. But there is no requirement by law to continue to be in the same union with fleet service clerks. Thus the choice to subsidize the fleet service clerk is a different matter all together than the subsidizng of other skills such as welding, plating, machine, and composite bonding.

Again, no one is subsidizing fleet service or the agents. The the fact that agents make what they make being NON-UNION prove this. Do you really think AA pays the NON-UNION agents what they do out of the goodness of their hearts? The NON-UNION agents get paid what AA feel are MARKET RATES. As for ramp, we make only a couple of dollars more an hour than NW and NON-UNION DL who without a doubt pay no more than they have to. Your untrue rants about "the skilled subsidizing the unskilled" is nothing more than mental masturbation of your inflated ego. You have to find someone else to blame for your unhappiness. You admitted that I may be correct that the A&Ps subsidize your compensation; so in effect you admit you might be overpaid. Don't you think some A&Ps feel that you make more at their expense the same way you feel that the unskilled make more at your expense?

I am not now, never have been, or never will be a TWU official in ANY capacity. I just go to work and pay my union dues. In fact, I have in the past, advocated (and still advocate) for TOTAL AND COMPLETE separation of the skilled (A&P, welder, plater, machinist, automotive, and facilities maintenance) from the unskilled ramp, cleaners, and custodians. I personally don't like being associated in any way with your type. I am in agreement with you about the fact that government mandates rules for craft and class. I have no love for the TWU and agree with everyone's assessment about the lack of democracy and corruption at the highest levels of the organization. However, I will say the local level has been very good about addressing my concerns about safety and contractual language. I have worked in and followed this industry for many years. I have worked in the hangers (non-A&P work on aircraft) and the on the ramp. I'm nothing more than an AA ramper who enjoys analyzing and debating happenings in this industry; that is all.

 

[aafsc]

<_< ------ aa we can go round and round about this! I'm living with the outcome. And frankly at this point in my career, it really is a mute issue! We were screwed by more than the IAM. As you've stated AA and he TWU worked in coalition to rob us of our Allegheny-Mohawk protections! They put a gun to our heads and said voluntarily give up your protections, or we'll go after your whole contract! At that point we all know if AA walked, it was all over for TWA. It's what is known as "agreeing under Duress"! And yes! I know life isn't fair!

Yes, AA put a gun to the IAM's head regarding surrendering of Allegheny-Mohawk protections. BUT IN THE CASE OF MECHANICS/RELATED AND RAMP, YOU GOT THOSE PROTECTIONS BACK WHEN THE TWU DECIDED TO GO TO BINDING ARBITRATION (WHICH IS WHAT ALLEGHENY-MOHAWK IS ANYWAY). IT IS IF YOU HAD NEVER SURRENDERED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. Why can't you get that through your thick skull? Because you somehow must think that Allegheny-Mohawk automatically guaranteed full TWA seniority system wide at AA. The fact is you just don't agree with the arbitrator's ruling; the same way that the US East pilots disagree with the arbitrator's ruling in that binding arbitration case.

 

[TWU informer]

I am not now, never have been, or never will be a TWU official in ANY capacity. I just go to work and pay my union dues. In fact, I have in the past, advocated (and still advocate) for TOTAL AND COMPLETE separation of the skilled (A&P, welder, plater, machinist, automotive, and facilities maintenance) from the unskilled ramp, cleaners, and custodians. I personally don't like being associated in any way with your type. I am in agreement with you about the fact that government mandates rules for craft and class. I have no love for the TWU and agree with everyone's assessment about the lack of democracy and corruption at the highest levels of the organization. However, I will say the local level has been very good about addressing my concerns about safety and contractual language. I have worked in and followed this industry for many years. I have worked in the hangers (non-A&P work on aircraft) and the on the ramp. I'm nothing more than an AA ramper who enjoys analyzing and debating happenings in this industry; that is all.

You can verify this by disclosing your name and station. Until then I still maintain you're attempting the TWU skill of deceiving us. You are more than just a dues payer that likes to debate. I smell a rat.

BTW, my Local is now as bad as the International at licking the company boot. The leaders even admit publicly they are in bed with management.

Also, cleaners and custodians are also dedicated Mechanic and Related by the NMB.

 

[eolesen]

Y'know Dave, you and others lose your credibility the moment you label everyone who disagrees with you as either a boot licker, TWU official, or management lackey...

 

[TWU informer]

Y'know Dave, you and others lose your credibility the moment you label everyone who disagrees with you as either a boot licker, TWU official, or management lackey...

I don't label aafsc because he disagrees with me, I do so based on his knowledge of the issues and the way he frames his arguements. Could be an adnormal Fleet Service Clerk that spends hours reading the Mechanic and Related and/or industrial union versus craft union issues, but I find that possibility to be slim enough that I will stand on my belief that he is much more than a dues paying fleet service clerk. I would have better odds of wining the lottery than being wrong on this one. His methods of arguement have been what I experienced for the last 9 years. I could be wrong, but my experience debating these very issues and my personal TWU involvement leave me with a belief that will not change unless I am proven beyond a doubt that I am incorrect.

If I lose credibility with you or anyone else reading here for that matter based on my beliefs that a typical TWU deception is taking place then so be it, I am not really running in a contest to gain your acceptance or any others to rate my credibility. In fact, I would go so far as to say I really don't give a damn what you think about me or my opinions. And if you personally find me with a credibility flaw I wont be losing any sleep over that.

I still have my beliefs about yourself and Holly's association with AA Management or Human Resources and the assignment within Plane Business, and I also clearly remember when the proxy was shutdown going through the AA servers at the Tulsa base. To this day I think it was a dragnet for cause attempting to make an example of someone. In other words, your credibility in my mind has been in question for years due to your involvement in PlaneBusiness Forums, but that doesn't mean I disregard everything you have to say here. I doubt you are any more concerned about my opinion of your credibility than I am with yours opinion about mine.

Pfftt, I had so-called longtime friends stop speaking or associating with me due to my organizing to oust the TWU. Kept true to my beliefs and many of them have admitting being in error now. Others opinions of my actions has never dictated my activity or direction and that will not be changing anytime soon.

 

[Raptor]

Pfftt, I had so-called longtime friends stop speaking or associating with me due to my organizing to oust the TWU. Kept true to my beliefs and many of them have admitting being in error now. Others opinions of my actions has never dictated my activity or direction and that will not be changing anytime soon.

Not letting others dictate your actions, direction or beliefs is a good thing, I will give you that
much, there are many at AA who are not nearly that strong willed.

That is the one characteristic we share.

Don't give that up or you very well could be sucked into the next CULT.

 

[TWU informer]

Not letting others dictate your actions, direction or beliefs is a good thing, I will give you that
much, there are many at AA who are not nearly that strong willed.

That is the one characteristic we share.

Don't give that up or you very well could be sucked into the next CULT.

I really don't plan on committing suicide or traveling on board the UFO Mother Ship hiding behind the Halle-Bopp Comet anytime soon.

For those that forget what I am making a reference to, then please visit the Heaven's Gate Cult informational websites.

I really do not perceive myself as a cult candidate, but who knows, maybe RAPTOR is really short for prophet and I will soon be on my way. With my credibility in question by certain readers of this bulletin board, I guess I could go off the deep end and seek refuge in a crazy man's religion. Anybody have some NIKE tennis shoes and a purple blanket?

 

[The Goose]

A formula airline management is not too interested in when it comes to their 500 to 800 fold increase in pay. The problem that I see is the "operating expense" of absurd management pay for knowing how to show a profit by slicing employee pay...and nothing else.

You, as many others, are ignoring the source of funds for the management payoffs.

AMR had $250k (tops) invested by virtue of SEC S-3 filing fees (registration of new shares) which were given to the execs along with others that had interest in the stock price such as large institutional holders. The millions the bastards reaped came from the shareholders in the form of stock price dilution. The AMR stock price on 17 Jan. was $41/share. Price after the bonuses was $26/share. You figure it out. There was no "operating expense", as you put it, save for the SEC filing fees. True, some of the decline is probably due to large investors reading the quarterly report that detailed AMR's plans to pay off the execs and deciding to bail, but the balance, however much that may be, is dilution.

Basically, AMR porked its shareholders to enrich the scum at the top, and they've served notice they're going to do it again.

 

[Bob Owens]

Obvious setup hah?
You might believe that you should be paid a location wage, but the company prefers you get a market wage.

The company has claimed the opposite for the 20plus years that I've been around. Its the TWU that has blocked "location wages".

What are the market wages these days for line and periodic checks in NY?
Location hah?
I got news for you guys.
The only reason mechanics like you are underpaid (for their location that is,right?) is none other than yourselves.
You and only you.
Stop blaming TWU, Tulsa, Guatemala, the White House, Congress and your dog.

Well if you want to look at it your way,whats the market rate for C checks? Why should a C-check in Tulsa cost more than a C-check in Guatemala? The fact is the only reason you make what you make , and not closer to what they make in Guatamala, is because of the fact that your contract is our contract. Consider that as you talk about market rates.

If the company ever sits and really examines how much they are losing by underpaying 4000 line mechanics so they can overpay(according to your "market rate" approach) 6000 in Tulsa then you are screwed.

Looking at things the way you do then the company should cut wages in Tulsa because they could still get people for half of what they are paying you right? How many jobs pay $15/hr in Tulsa?

The fact is that the company has blown through their recall list in NY. Some of the smaller carriers like North American have had ads in the papers for months looking for A&Ps at JFK. Thats one of the reasons why AA is getting all those contracts, because these other carriers cant find workers. If the FAA ever cracked down on the amount of hours an A&P could work then those other airlines, who hire AA and other airlines workers as part timers, would be screwed.

The line mechanics that keep coming to work for those same low wages are to blame.

So basically you are saying that we shouldnt bother with having a union and allow the market to determine our wages.

I am not suggesting you move or quit. Maybe you have another solution, I don’t.

We need to get a real union.

Regional pay is something that most industries have, including the government. The airline industry didnt need it before because the wages earned in places like Tulsa were primarily based upon what was needed in places like NY. As a result people with a High School diploma at best were earning wages comparable to doctors in places like Tulsa. We always earned slightly below similarly situated people, but the gap has widened intolerably. A TWU mechanic in NY earns about $25,000 a year LESS than Jim Littles secretary.

Not all airlines had their OH in cheap low cost areas, that also mitigated the negative effects of having the majority of our contract group in a low cost area. It also kept wages in Tulsa higher. However that is no longer the case. AA now has the highest paid full service overhaul mechanics in the US MRO industry. However they are experiencing increased delays and cancellations on the line because of poor morale. Poor morale caused by poor pay rates. Most of the people they had on their recall list are not coming back, the majority of those who returned to their positions had never left AA.

So the "market rate" is kicking in, however since the union has nothing to do with it and most on the line cant stand the TWU where do you think the company is going to set their sights this time brother? They can't cut the line because they have already cut below the market rate and the poor morale is affecting their bottom line. While the majority on the line no longer go the extra mile they dont go out of their way to find things that would pull the plane out of service either, any sort of cut would definately trigger a job action on the line, in fact its just an incident away. How much do you think they could cut in Tulsa and still get people?

Are they going to go after those that they are having trouble keeping? Are they going to target the ones who directly affect their schedule? Or are they going after those who still live with Doctors?

If AA did decide to spin off OH where should we on the line stand? Should we say"Let the market determine OH rates of pay", like you are saying about the line? I know, you will threaten that you guys will all bump to the line, well all they have to do is fail you on the trade test to stop that, do you think all these supervisors out here or the company want someone from the blade weld shop(which is highly skilled job-but not needed on the line) doing live gate calls where seconds makes all the difference between an on time departure and a delay?

Cutting wages for line mechanics cost the company more than it saved. Sure they could easily see the lower wages but measuring how much they lost through delays, cancellations, unnecissary parts changes, increased use of consumables, OT, etc is much harder to measure but it adds up. Workers have to make up what the company took, so they work the OT. There is no incentive to work harder especially if its going to take away the OT needed to survive.

When AA gave mechanics a raise in 2001 it cost the company nothing. OT dissapeared and AA had its best reliability ever. Many mechanics made the same in 2000 as they did in 2002, because there no longer was any OT to be had. When a mechanic is making OT it generally means a plane is out of service. When mechanics got their raise the hangars were empty during the day, when the pay was cut they started to be occupied again.


All AA needs to do is give 4000 line mechs back everything (including adjustments for inflation) and they could still let attrition shrink the workforce another 15% and still have the best on time stats in the industry. The cuts in manpower, increased productivity, reduced OT and a more efficient use of parts and materiel through more vigorous troubleshooting would more than cover the increases in wages per mechanic. Its a formula that has worked well for SWA and UPS for many years.

So limit if its "every man for themselves" and "markets rates" you advocate, fine, lets go non-union, or stay with the TWU as it is and see who takes the biggest hit. At this point we dont have much to lose.

 

[Bob Owens]

Hardly, Dave. This definition of unskilled is what I've personally heard amfa supporters say and no doubt why del Femine's personal association failed to oust the twu. It's rather difficult to get people to sell themselves down the river after hearing these rants regardless of whether or not their union is corrupt.

It takes many skills/trades working in concert to perform aircraft maintenance due to the complexity of the beasts, but when I see a mechanic pumped up by amfa belittling a man with 30+ years experience in another trade because he hasn't a pair of certificates like a 20-something snot-nosed brat who literally bought them from Spartan, something is bad wrong with that organization.

You can 'wax poetic' all you wish; "Seek the Truth", etc. - but it's still a deflection; a way to avoid an answer. Also, look up "Ad Hominem".

Now - quit trying to gain credibility via insults as you typically do and answer the question.​

I have yet to hear any elected AMFA official belittle other workers. If you can find it please show us.

Have some who advocate AMFA done this? Yes, no doubt, but they were sharing their opinions and prejudices, not those of the union as a whole. I've also heard TWU representatives from Fleet and other departments say derrogatory things about mechanics-so what?


The fact is the TWU is bad for all of us.

 

[Bob Owens]

The IAM screwed you by voluntarily giving away your Allegeheny-Mowhawk. They could have said no and risked total abrogation by the judge.

The IAM wasnt concerned about thier contract, it was the hundreds of millions owed to the IAM pension fund (that the IAM would have been liable for) and the leased IAM property that they were worried about. IAM workers probal=bly would have fared better if the IAM had been willing to fight. Instead they just walked away-with their hundreds of millions for the pension, and left their members to fend for themselves.

If the judge did not abrogate, then AA would have walked away (AA made this crystal clear) and all TWA people would have had nothing.

With a buyer in the wings? Things would have been more complicated if the IAM had said NO. The fact is that the IAM screwed its members to stem its losses. The IAM has been losing members to the TWU which was growing by screwing theirs. The IAM figured "If you cant beat them-join them" or at least cut your losses-the IAM seems to be content with their fading presence in the airline industry.

The IAM walked away from you guys. Who ever heard of a merged work force where the arbitrator implemented a totally new seniority system? We have seen plenty of mergers before but never one where the workforces were merged like this. 100% here, 25% there and 4-10-01 everywhere else? This flawed decision was the creation of Art Luby and the company, it targeted NY and LAX in the hope that an influx of workers who just saw their pay rates increase dramatically from their TWA rates would pacify the stations, if not-keep them fighting amongst themselses too much to fight the company.


The sad fact is that AFL-CIO affiliation has doomed airline workers to unsrupulous unions like the TWU. Unions like the TWU undermine pay standards to facilitate membership growth. AFL-CIO affiliation prevents raiding from unions with the resources needed even as these other unions see their members forced to accept lower wages or see their jobs dissapear entirely.

 

[eolesen]

Dave, I could also care less what you or others think about me, so on that we're agreed...

My point... You and others that I don't necessarily agree with ideologically do make some great arguments, but those arguments usually get lost in the mud slinging and chaff. Keep the arguments above-board (as Ken McT does 99.5% of the time), then perhaps you'd be a little further along in dumping the TWU. When you're constantly sinking to the TWU's level, it's hard to see why geting rid of them is going to do anything else except change the initials on the contract and union card...

Plane Business was how long ago, Dave?.... AMR's actions regarding the proxy server were really just a weak attempt to shut me down as an impartial voice who was taking a position that CrapComm didn't agree with. Somewhere I've got a letter to prove that (it's some of the few things I chose to keep, along with copies of emails from a managing director in IT directing me and others to illegally copy software rather than buy the applicable seat licenses.).

Unfortunately, it didn't work because I wasn't using AMR's proxy... but that's a discussion for another time.

 

[limit]

I think you guys did not really understood What I really meant.
I dont want this union.But until we get rid of it ,something else needs to be done.
I have seen here a lot of rhetoric against union,union members that
do not get it,the company,etc..Some of it has come from me.
But when all is said and done, what has changed?
We are at it for how many years now, and its the same song and dance.
With our words and actions we have divided the ranks even more.
The wage situation in NY for airlines is what it is.
The union is still the same if not worse.
The company will not give you anything unless forced.
Overhaul ... well like it or hate it ,it it what it is.
Well now what?
Isn't this where we were years ago?

I do not see the TWU leaving the premises any time soon.
You guys might say its because overhaul keeps them in place
( and are correct in that assesment),but the reality is that they are still here.
I have been waiting for twu to disappear for decades,and they are still here.
How long do you have to wait/fight against them before you realize that
at the end of the day nothing has changed for our families?
That something else needs to be done.
Are we going to wait for twu to go away?
Heck we might be dead by then.
What can we do now?
Is strike ( even wildcat ) the solution?Will it work?Is putting it all on the line
worth it?
What else is out there?
No matter how much you guys don't like to hear it ,you,we, all of us are accomplices
to the crime.
Going to work under these conditions is the main reason the situation remains the same.
The way I see it, we have lost sight of our purpose.Or maybe ,now that I think of it, we dont have
a common purpose.
My main purpose is to better my situation.
Not to get rid of the Twu.That to me is secondary.
If we succeed in removing them fine,but if not so,then what?
What can we do,and what are we willing to do now?
I really don't have an answer.
But I am willing to listen.
What I am not willing to do is go through the same song and dance, day in and day out.

 

[MCI transplant]

Yes, AA put a gun to the IAM's head regarding surrendering of Allegheny-Mohawk protections. BUT IN THE CASE OF MECHANICS/RELATED AND RAMP, YOU GOT THOSE PROTECTIONS BACK WHEN THE TWU DECIDED TO GO TO BINDING ARBITRATION (WHICH IS WHAT ALLEGHENY-MOHAWK IS ANYWAY). IT IS IF YOU HAD NEVER SURRENDERED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. Why can't you get that through your thick skull? Because you somehow must think that Allegheny-Mohawk automatically guaranteed full TWA seniority system wide at AA. The fact is you just don't agree with the arbitrator's ruling; the same way that the US East pilots disagree with the arbitrator's ruling in that binding arbitration case.

<_< aa,--- aa,--- aa! Your still hung up in the past! Conceder this one! The Industry is about to go through another round of consolidation. AA has been socking money away just for such a time. They have, at last count, at least, six, plus, billion Dollars on had.------- Now comes the question! Do you see another TWA on the horizon? And do you feel you personally will be as fortunate in it's outcome if there is? :unsure: ------ What I'm saying is maybe you had better not stop looking for those school buses! They still maybe headed down I95 after all, but full of someone else besides exTWAers!

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ Maybe that should be an open question to this board! ------ Do you see another TWA in AA's near future? If so, how do you feel it should be handled?----- Remember! This thread does ask for a "bottom line" opinion!