Bottom Line

[Raptor]

There's also this small issue of supply and demand with regard to aircraft mechanics, or any other trade, for that matter.

You may not have been in the work-world when the big people-demand was for data processing. Everybody and their blasted dog went to school to learn about computers (I AM an old fart); so many,in fact, they cut their own throats by the supply of bodies far outstripping the demand; the pay rates dropping off the cliff and crashing at the bottom.

The same theory goes for aircraft mechanics. Less than 1000 at NWA due to the Republican (synonymous with big business and campaign contributions) embrace of outsourcing. There's 9000+ mechanics loose - where did they go and for what pay? How many other airlines that once did their own maintenance have outsourced that work to God-knows-where? How many mechanics did those actions displace? What I'm asking is: "How many loose mechanics are out there chasing a paycheck?" The answer is "many", and quite a few are finding work at the 'chop-shops' but at a considerably lesser payscale because of the oversupply in the trade.

By contrast, consider the inability of the manufacturing sector in Tulsa to find machinists that are worth a damn and can pass a drug test. The wages for these people went down the tubes about 20+ years ago. These people found other things to do with themselves. Some area shops are paying their machine-trades personnel what some aircraft mechanics still believe they are worth to start, just to steal them away from non-responsive employers.

Worth? Perhaps, but the businesses will always fall back to the lowest common denominator when there's an oversupply in a particular trade. These devils have weekly reports sent to them telling if they're paying the 'knuckle-draggers' too much. There are companies out there that gladly provide this manner of info., for a fee, of course.

AA, mainly because of peer pressure (other airlines) and what they perceive as the 'market rate', is in no hurry to set a precident re: mechanic pay and benefits. This would be the business equivalent of messing the nest.

Just remember - if we could figure a way to take what we want from the shareholders (as the executives did with their stock bonuses) and not from the company ( as would be the case with operating expenses such as mechanic wages and benefits), we could probably have all we wanted, providing we didn't foul up the executive paydays (shareholder rape), regardless of which union or association collects the dues.

Goose I personally have no problem with getting compensation in the form of stock, I do not want to lose what I have now, but
as for a current raise up from where we are, I will take stock in a heart beat, I would hope they would be generous with it of course
being as it is not super cheap like it was when they gave us some in 2003.

I like stock.

If AA gave us a bunch of stock and we all pulled together to make the Airline money then we would all make money
as the stock went up and it would not cost AA money only the current shareholders would get burned.

 

[North by Northwest]

Revenue has nothing to do with wages, Bob. It has to do with ticket prices and ancillary sales (i.e. buy on board, fees for using a skycap or talking to an agent) and, of course, load factors.

Want to make it a valid post? Try including operating expenses and ASM's. Operating expenses are up almost $3B from 2003 to 2006, and likely to be in excess of $23B for 2007.

A formula airline management is not too interested in when it comes to their 500 to 800 fold increase in pay. The problem that I see is the "operating expense" of absurd management pay for knowing how to show a profit by slicing employee pay...and nothing else.

 

[The Goose]

Goose I personally have no problem with getting compensation in the form of stock, I do not want to lose what I have now, but
as for a current raise up from where we are, I will take stock in a heart beat, I would hope they would be generous with it of course
being as it is not super cheap like it was when they gave us some in 2003.

I like stock.

If AA gave us a bunch of stock and we all pulled together to make the Airline money then we would all make money
as the stock went up and it would not cost AA money only the current shareholders would get burned.

You have much to learn about business, my friend.

The stock the executives were GIVEN (not sold at a reduced OPTION price as ours was) was newly minted; that is, the corporation created it from thin air, similar to the Federal Reserve printing money to satisfy the monetization of newly created wealth.

The executive devils then immediately sold this stock diluting the value of those shares outstanding. Look at the historical stock pricing available on the web - AMR was going for $41.00/share on 17 January 2007. When the quarterly report was filed with the SEC outlining how nice the board was going to be to the execs., the price began falling and ended up a tad higher than it is now.

I expect the stock will take another 30-50% tumble when the next management payoffs are handed out. Still want some of that stock Raptor?

Oh yes - and what of the FL Group? They're still hacked because the last management payoff (not to mention the loss of investor confidence) cost them a helluva lot of money, hence the calls to spin off something to help them regain their losses and some face as an investment entity in Iceland.

Be assured, if stock is negotiated for us, we'll be the last to profit from it. By the time we're allowed to sell it, the negotiated-for shares will probably be worth 50% or less of what they were at negotiating time. This is what I meant by "fouling up the executive payoffs". We may well be allowed our turn at the trough, but only after the big hogs are finished.

You don't want stock - you want cash. Much more portable.

 

[AMFAMAN]

AMFA uses the line that one of the main reasons for the NW strike was to save the jobs of it's "non licensed" members. While this may be "convenient" for appearances sake, lets look at the numbers. Just prior to the lockout/strike, there were 4,400 total AMFA members. NW wanted to eliminate half (2,200). Since there were about 800 cleaners and custodians, that still meant 1,400 A&P licensed mechanics would have lost their jobs which translates into 38% of that skilled group. Another side benefit to AMFA's claim of "striking for the unskilled" is that it may have avoided a potential DFR suit. At UA, the cleaners, custodians and computer techs all lost their jobs due to the farm out provisions in that AMFA contract. If the same would have happened at NW, then a "pattern" starts to develop which could have spawned litigation.

Just an FYI..you need to re-check your numbers as under the old IAM seniority system which was carried over to AMFA at NWA, all mechanics, AMT, Plant, Auto, etc. are on the same seniority list unlike the title group seniority lists we have. Since NWA wanted to eliminate all plant and auto mechanics, the number of A&P's would be much lower than the 1,400 you posted. <_<

 

[AMFAMAN]

As I tried to show in a previous post (#223), you and those with your attitude are the reason the corrupt twu will never be ousted from AA.

'Master Class' - sounds more like Hitler's 'Master Race'. I was ready to sign a card for new representation (if the chance arose) until you reminded me what a group of egotistical bastards I would be enabling.

Thanks for the reminder.

Goose, just for clarification, aafsc who posted the comment is in fleet service. <_<

 

[The Goose]

Goose, just for clarification, aafsc who posted the comment is in fleet service. <_<

He may well be in Fleet Circus, but he doesn't serve the cause of getting rid of a corrupt union very well(added 1313, 9 nov) but as you say, this is no doubt this person's intent.

It is unfortunate, however, that I heard fellow mechanics say almost the same thing re: the 'lesser forms of life' in different trades. These are the ones that need to be slapped down by those with a bit of sense about them. The old adage about drawing more flies with honey than vinegar would seem to apply here.

 

[AMFAMAN]

The same theory goes for aircraft mechanics. Less than 1000 at NWA due to the Republican (synonymous with big business and campaign contributions) embrace of outsourcing. There's 9000+ mechanics loose - where did they go and for what pay? How many other airlines that once did their own maintenance have outsourced that work to God-knows-where? How many mechanics did those actions displace? What I'm asking is: "How many loose mechanics are out there chasing a paycheck?" The answer is "many", and quite a few are finding work at the 'chop-shops' but at a considerably lesser payscale because of the oversupply in the trade, and in taking that job, sets the market rate.

Just an FYI...when Delta closed shop at DFW a few years back, well over 100 AMT's went to work for Verizon FIOS in the DFW area running fiber optics to houses. They pay roughly $2 an hour less than AA, but much better benefits, vacation, holidays, etc. Just last week we had another 20 year AMT quit AA because he is making more money working on cars. So while there technically might be a surplus of AMT's out there, for one I doubt many would return, and two if they did return, AA's very low starting pay and 1 week vacation for the first 5 years is not exactly going to attract too many people back into the industry.

 

[AMFAMAN]

He may well be in Fleet Circus, but he doesn't serve the cause of getting rid of a corrupt union very well.

That is his or hers main purpose of being on this thread and for this site for that matter. AAFSC is not part of our craft and class so he or she tries to dig up any dirt, do some pot stirring to try to prevent us from leaving the twu, but rarely ever finds fault with his or hers beloved twu.

 

[The Goose]

Just an FYI...when Delta closed shop at DFW a few years back, well over 100 AMT's went to work for Verizon FIOS in the DFW area running fiber optics to houses. They pay roughly $2 an hour less than AA, but much better benefits, vacation, holidays, etc. Just last week we had another 20 year AMT quit AA because he is making more money working on cars. So while there technically might be a surplus of AMT's out there, for one I doubt many would return, and two if they did return, AA's very low starting pay and 1 week vacation for the first 5 years is not exactly going to attract too many people back into the industry.

Therefore true to my example and timetable re: Tulsa and maufacturings inability to find machinists.

Make no mistake - it will take a while for the airlines to figure this out but when they do, there has to be provision for banning overseas maintenance or at least making those shops follow our rules (the same rules the FAA piles on the domestic airlines) or we, as a trade, are finished.

This is looking 15-25 years into the future - right now, we're still screwed.

 

[MCDP]

Just an FYI...when Delta closed shop at DFW a few years back, well over 100 AMT's went to work for Verizon FIOS in the DFW area running fiber optics to houses. They pay roughly $2 an hour less than AA, but much better benefits, vacation, holidays, etc. Just last week we had another 20 year AMT quit AA because he is making more money working on cars. So while there technically might be a surplus of AMT's out there, for one I doubt many would return, and two if they did return, AA's very low starting pay and 1 week vacation for the first 5 years is not exactly going to attract too many people back into the industry.

That is why I turned down my recall to AA. I'm way better off where I'm at now. Better pay and benefits. Way, way more steady and secure.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Therefore true to my example and timetable re: Tulsa and maufacturings inability to find machinists.

Make no mistake - it will take a while for the airlines to figure this out but when they do, there has to be provision for banning overseas maintenance or at least making those shops follow our rules (the same rules the FAA piles on the domestic airlines) or we, as a trade, are finished.

This is looking 15-25 years into the future - right now, we're still screwed.

Well Tulsa is a unique situation compared to most other maintenance staffed station cities. A machinist would be somewhat more limited in a city like Tulsa, but never thought the day would come where people would say "you just gotta move out of Tulsa." I did a quick search on machinist jobs, and there is no shortage of good jobs outside of Tulsa and the airline industry. http://machinist.jobs.com/
I'm not limiting myself to airline jobs, and I'm certainly not going to count on this government to provide rule changes that ensure some job security. <_<

 

[MCI transplant]

The IAM screwed you by voluntarily giving away your Allegeheny-Mowhawk. They could have said no and risked total abrogation by the judge. If the judge did not abrogate, then AA would have walked away (AA made this crystal clear) and all TWA people would have had nothing. In the case of the mechanics/related and ramp the TWU agreed to binding arbitration which in effect restored the protections the IAM voluntarily gave up. I was in DFW at the time and the TWAers were overjoyed that AA saved their careers. The joy turned to disappointment and anger when the ARBITRATOR ruled against their position of DOH system wide. So, yes, I do indeed have the balls to state the obvious; TWAers wanted use their seniority to repair their failed careers on the backs of nAAtives. Their attempt to do so was pure unadulterated theft. Your right about one thing, you (and 25% of your fellow TWAers) did indeed get something out of this transaction, a job with the highest pay rates among the legacies; which is a lot more than the EAL people got; I am glad that you finally admitted it. From YOUR (and other TWAers) point of view, you say you were treated unfairly; well, "who said life was fair"?

<_< ------ aa we can go round and round about this! I'm living with the outcome. And frankly at this point in my career, it really is a mute issue! We were screwed by more than the IAM. As you've stated AA and he TWU worked in coalition to rob us of our Allegheny-Mohawk protections! They put a gun to our heads and said voluntarily give up your protections, or we'll go after your whole contract! At that point we all know if AA walked, it was all over for TWA. It's what is known as "agreeing under Duress"! And yes! I know life isn't fair!

 

[TWU informer]

It is my belief that aafsc is not a Fleet Service Clerk at all, but instead a TWU Official pretending to be a fleet service clerk and spread propaganda against any union that might be a threat to the TWU dues collection. He is an appointed Dictator attempting to protect his lifetime good deal.

He may be correct that my skill is being subsidized by the AMT in the Airline Industry. I don't agree with his opinion, but he is entitled to it. However, there is one very huge difference between my skill and the fleet service clerk. The National Mediation Board has determined that my skill is within the craft or class scope of the Mechanic and Related group. This means the welder and the AMT will always be required by law to be in the same union. On the other hand, the NMB has ruled that the fleet service clerk is NOT in the community of interest craft or class with the AMT. Thus, the AMT has not a choice as to his affiliation in union structure with the welder. But there is no requirement by law to continue to be in the same union with fleet service clerks. Thus the choice to subsidize the fleet service clerk should be considered a different matter all together than the subsidizng of other skills such as welding, plating, machine, and composite bonding.

 

[Raptor]

Damn did Dave just admit that A&P subsidize Welders you don't see that everyday.

 

[TWU informer]

Damn did Dave just admit that A&P subsidize Welders you don't see that everyday.

Read it again dufus, I said "I don't agree with his opinion, but he is entitled to it".

You really should work on your comprehension skills so that when you read something, you don't just get what you want out of it but instead the content is brought into the brain in a unbiased manner allowing for understanding of the content instead of an emotional discharge from your medicated cranium.