Bottom Line

[TWU-GOTTA-GO]

In a nutshell, one doesn't have to be labeled as an elitist to take an interest in who negotiates the next contract for him or her.

That was the point I was trying to make along with looking out for the best interest of our craft and class by leaving the twu can be done without burning every bridge on the way out the door. I am fully aware of the jobs lost to FSC as a result of FSC controlling this union, but I'm also painfully aware of the fact that we came of 27 cards short in 2004 and there are over 1,200 FSC cleaners (non-card signers) who are part of our craft and class and many are under the impression that if we ever left the twu, they would be out of a job the next day as a result of some AMT's attitudes towards them. The same can be said for title 2, where over 80% refused to sign cards, or the over 75% of non-licensed title 1 mechanics who refused to sign. I totally understand with what your saying, but the only ones to blame for the injustices we have been served by the FSC dominated union are ourselves for not ousting this union sometime over the past 60 years. Sure we can #### and complain about what went down at the NMB, but the bottom line is if we put another 1,000 cards on the table at the NMB back in 2004, there is no discussion about the twu today.

 

[aafsc]

<_< ------Oh! Are you telling me there were people who stuck it out at EAL during the "Lorenzo years"? Isn't that what you've been accusing TWAer's of doing with Icahn? :huh: And you got "NOTHING" out of it! How many years did you work for them? :huh:

I was there for less than 5 years; that is why I was not vested and received nothing. The "lorenzo years" amounted to only 3. The strike occurred at the FIRST legal opportunity. EAL people with 20-25 years get about the same from the PBGC as do TWAers with the corresponding number of years.

 

[aafsc]

<_< ------ aa don't realize we were both screwed by the same Unon! The IAM!!! And he's got the balls to say we conspired to take what was not ours! The exTWA employees had no say in any of it! What aafsc is pissed off about is that at least we got something out of our efforts at TWA! Those at EAL, including himself, were not as fortunate, they got little, or nothing! There is nothing us exTWAers can do about that! "Who said life was fair?" :down:

The IAM screwed you by voluntarily giving away your Allegeheny-Mowhawk. They could have said no and risked total abrogation by the judge. If the judge did not abrogate, then AA would have walked away (AA made this crystal clear) and all TWA people would have had nothing. In the case of the mechanics/related and ramp the TWU agreed to binding arbitration which in effect restored the protections the IAM voluntarily gave up. I was in DFW at the time and the TWAers were overjoyed that AA saved their careers. The joy turned to disappointment and anger when the ARBITRATOR ruled against their position of DOH system wide. So, yes, I do indeed have the balls to state the obvious; TWAers wanted use their seniority to repair their failed careers on the backs of nAAtives. Their attempt to do so was pure unadulterated theft. Your right about one thing, you (and 25% of your fellow TWAers) did indeed get something out of this transaction, a job with the highest pay rates among the legacies; which is a lot more than the EAL people got; I am glad that you finally admitted it. From YOUR (and other TWAers) point of view, you say you were treated unfairly; well, "who said life was fair"?

 

[aafsc]

I was in disagreement with most of your post regarding AMFA's attitude towards the lesser skilled workgroups until your last statement regarding its supporters, which is correct regarding some--not all. With that said, I've talked to Dell countless times and have never heard him put down another workgroup, and witnessed a strike at NWA where the last offer would have dealt the equivalent to our "title 2" and the cleaners a fatal blow in jobs compared to AMT's, but they chose to strike for all jobs. At AA, it seems as all workgroups blame other workgroups for their workgroups shortcomings in their contract. I highly doubt, in fact guarantee, that even one workgroup within our own union would strike for another workgroup, let own for another station, etc.; just not going to happen. We do have a large population of elitist within not only our ranks, but the ranks of many workgroups on the property. So while there are some AMFA supporters who have or are preaching an elitist tone, remember that most of their union experience comes from working under a union who thrives on dividing and conquering, and a company who is among the best at union-busting. I could agree with you more if we actually worked in a union environment and had unity amongst all workgroups, but heck, we don't even have unity between union leadership or locals for that matter.

AMFA uses the line that one of the main reasons for the NW strike was to save the jobs of it's "non licensed" members. While this may be "convenient" for appearances sake, lets look at the numbers. Just prior to the lockout/strike, there were 4,400 total AMFA members. NW wanted to eliminate half (2,200). Since there were about 800 cleaners and custodians, that still meant 1,400 A&P licensed mechanics would have lost their jobs which translates into 38% of that skilled group. Another side benefit to AMFA's claim of "striking for the unskilled" is that it may have avoided a potential DFR suit. At UA, the cleaners, custodians and computer techs all lost their jobs due to the farm out provisions in that AMFA contract. If the same would have happened at NW, then a "pattern" starts to develop which could have spawned litigation.

 

[aafsc]

No A&P just a meager welder.

Proud meager welder, I have been to the docks and done mechanic jobs, most mechanics bring their weld needs and "G" jobs to have them done. I assume this is because they cannot do the welding themselves. Not really sure why the welders can do their job but they don't seem to be able to ours.

Does this make me "unskilled" or unable to tell the difference between a worthless union and a democratic one? Does it make me unable to identify a stooge that is blindly led or a selfish future scab?

Exactly why would I be afraid of the truth? It is the TWU stooges that fear the truth, not me.

Guess who the mechanics' Crew Chief calls to have a repair done on an aircraft when a structure hack job has been accomplished by the highly skilled A&P Mechanic?

Your not even an A&P and yet you claim to "subsidize" ramp and agents.
I did a little research on welder's compensation and this is what I found:

According to the Department of Labor, in 2006, the median income for a welder was $32,880 per year. On another salary website they break it down by different types of welders with the highest paid being both mechanic welders and pipe fitter welders at $41,000 per year. There are also variances for location. From what I have read in your contract, your rate is $32 an hour ($26.80 base pay+$3.45 welder's license+$1.75 crew chief pay). On a 40 hour a week basis, this equates to $61,440 per year. Your pay and benefits far exceed those of your colleagues in the welding trade. Add to that you live in low cost TUL and you are even better off. You are NOT subsidizing anyone, looks like someone else is subsidizing you. The only welders that seem to do extremely well are those who weld under water, it was written that underwater welders can earn up to $100,000 per year. But you weld on land, not under water.

While welding is indeed a viable licensed trade; a welder is not an aircraft mechanic anymore than is a machinist, plater, automotive, or facilities mechanic or even a ramper for that matter. An aircraft mechanic, meaning with an A&P, has to know and be able to repair or maintain all airframe (structure, electric, hydraulic, pneumatic, avionic) systems, engines, and HAVE THE ABILITY TO SIGN THEM OFF. You stated that you did some "mechanic type" work on the docks; well during the EAL strike, they had secretaries working in the engine shop. Anyone can do the work, BUT ONLY AN A and P CAN SIGN IT OFF.

The original intent of AMFA was to be a union of A&Ps ONLY, "the master class"- hence the name AIRCRAFT MECHANICS FRATERNAL ASSOCIATION. They reluctantly represent other groups because the federal government mandates it; in reality non A&Ps are about as welcomed at AMFA as Doug Steenland would be at an AMFA reunion. You are MORE skilled than a ramper or agent but LESS skilled than an A&P but you're paid almost the same as the A&P.

 

[aafsc]

Eventually,and it is just a matter of time, AA will spin off overhaul. When that does happen the company will once again gut your contract. And you will be paid like the rest of the MRO facilities in the US. So it will not matter if you live in Kentucky, Alabama, or Oaklahoma the company will bring your wages and benefits down to be competitive with the rest of the MRO's in the country. So enjoy your lifestyle now because it will not last forever. You will be lucky to get 3 more years or till the end of the next contract. The company is all ready gearing up for the MRO work on foreign carriers. In order for them to get any business they will have to streamline the pay and benefits in Tulsa. Then where will you move to

It would not be in the best interests of the new ownership (in the event AA divests itself of it's heavy overhaul facilities) to bring the pay down to the levels of Timco and AAR. The bases produce a high quality product in a relatively short period of time. The workers make this possible. For if the pay is indeed cut to other MRO levels, people will leave with their experience and the overhaul time will increase and the quality will decrease. If they are smart, they will give reasonable raises and offset that by bringing in more customers (revenue).

 

[Raptor]

Your not even an A&P and yet you claim to "subsidize" ramp and agents.
I did a little research on welder's compensation and this is what I found:

According to the Department of Labor, in 2006, the median income for a welder was $32,880 per year. On another salary website they break it down by different types of welders with the highest paid being both mechanic welders and pipe fitter welders at $41,000 per year. There are also variances for location. From what I have read in your contract, your rate is $32 an hour ($26.80 base pay+$3.45 welder's license+$1.75 crew chief pay). On a 40 hour a week basis, this equates to $61,440 per year. Your pay and benefits far exceed those of your colleagues in the welding trade. Add to that you live in low cost TUL and you are even better off. You are NOT subsidizing anyone, looks like someone else is subsidizing you. The only welders that seem to do extremely well are those who weld under water, it was written that underwater welders can earn up to $100,000 per year. But you weld on land, not under water.

While welding is indeed a viable licensed trade; a welder is not an aircraft mechanic anymore than is a machinist, plater, automotive, or facilities mechanic or even a ramper for that matter. An aircraft mechanic, meaning with an A&P, has to know and be able to repair or maintain all airframe (structure, electric, hydraulic, pneumatic, avionic) systems, engines, and HAVE THE ABILITY TO SIGN THEM OFF. You stated that you did some "mechanic type" work on the docks; well during the EAL strike, they had secretaries working in the engine shop. Anyone can do the work, BUT ONLY AN A and P CAN SIGN IT OFF.

The original intent of AMFA was to be a union of A&Ps ONLY, "the master class"- hence the name AIRCRAFT MECHANICS FRATERNAL ASSOCIATION. They reluctantly represent other groups because the federal government mandates it; in reality non A&Ps are about as welcomed at AMFA as Doug Steenland would be at an AMFA reunion. You are MORE skilled than a ramper or agent but LESS skilled than an A&P but you're paid almost the same as the A&P.

Ouch !!

Well said.


Thanks for the research all good to know.

I'm thinking Dave will be quiet for a while now, to heal his bruised ego after that thrashing.

 

[Hopeful]

It would not be in the best interests of the new ownership (in the event AA divests itself of it's heavy overhaul facilities) to bring the pay down to the levels of Timco and AAR. The bases produce a high quality product in a relatively short period of time. The workers make this possible. For if the pay is indeed cut to other MRO levels, people will leave with their experience and the overhaul time will increase and the quality will decrease. If they are smart, they will give reasonable raises and offset that by bringing in more customers (revenue).

The bottom line is that the TWU will NEVER EVER ALLOW THE CONTRACTING OUT OR SHUTDOWN OF THE OVERHAUL BASES..PERIOD!

The TWU will have us all work for minimum wage before they allow that.

Hell, they would allow line maintenance to be outsourced before the main bases.

 

[Raptor]

The bottom line is that the TWU will NEVER EVER ALLOW THE CONTRACTING OUT OR SHUTDOWN OF THE OVERHAUL BASES..PERIOD!

The TWU will have us all work for minimum wage before they allow that.

Hell, they would allow line maintenance to be outsourced before the main bases.

For clarification when you say the TWU you mean the Members of the TWU correct. ?? :unsure:

I am sure that is what you mean since we all Know that the leaders do not ratify our contracts
the Members do when they vote.

 

[The Goose]

Your not even an A&P and yet you claim to "subsidize" ramp and agents.
I did a little research on welder's compensation and this is what I found:

According to the Department of Labor, in 2006, the median income for a welder was $32,880 per year. On another salary website they break it down by different types of welders with the highest paid being both mechanic welders and pipe fitter welders at $41,000 per year. There are also variances for location. From what I have read in your contract, your rate is $32 an hour ($26.80 base pay+$3.45 welder's license+$1.75 crew chief pay). On a 40 hour a week basis, this equates to $61,440 per year. Your pay and benefits far exceed those of your colleagues in the welding trade. Add to that you live in low cost TUL and you are even better off. You are NOT subsidizing anyone, looks like someone else is subsidizing you. The only welders that seem to do extremely well are those who weld under water, it was written that underwater welders can earn up to $100,000 per year. But you weld on land, not under water.

While welding is indeed a viable licensed trade; a welder is not an aircraft mechanic anymore than is a machinist, plater, automotive, or facilities mechanic or even a ramper for that matter. An aircraft mechanic, meaning with an A&P, has to know and be able to repair or maintain all airframe (structure, electric, hydraulic, pneumatic, avionic) systems, engines, and HAVE THE ABILITY TO SIGN THEM OFF. You stated that you did some "mechanic type" work on the docks; well during the EAL strike, they had secretaries working in the engine shop. Anyone can do the work, BUT ONLY AN A and P CAN SIGN IT OFF.

The original intent of AMFA was to be a union of A&Ps ONLY, "the master class"- hence the name AIRCRAFT MECHANICS FRATERNAL ASSOCIATION. They reluctantly represent other groups because the federal government mandates it; in reality non A&Ps are about as welcomed at AMFA as Doug Steenland would be at an AMFA reunion. You are MORE skilled than a ramper or agent but LESS skilled than an A&P but you're paid almost the same as the A&P.

As I tried to show in a previous post (#223), you and those with your attitude are the reason the corrupt twu will never be ousted from AA.

'Master Class' - sounds more like Hitler's 'Master Race'. I was ready to sign a card for new representation (if the chance arose) until you reminded me what a group of egotistical bastards I would be enabling.

Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Raptor]

As I tried to show in a previous post, you and those with your attitude are the reason the corrupt twu will never be ousted from AA.

'Master Class' - sounds more like Hitler's 'Master Race'. I was ready to sign a card for new representation (if the chance arose) until you reminded me what a group of egotistical bastards I would be enabling.

Thanks for the reminder.

Well there would have been some differences with AMFA and the A&P would have probably been tended to a little better,
but as far as the big picture goes Pay & Benefits would not have necessarily went up, look what happened to Northwest,
their Pay and Benefits are not up, it is really the Members that decide Pay & Benefits not the Organization itself.
I think the days of AMFA at AA are over for a very long time because of what happened at Northwest.

People have seen that changing Unions does not guarantee success.

Members are more of a concern than the name over the Door or even the Leadership.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

For clarification when you say the TWU you mean the Members of the TWU correct. ?? :unsure:

I am sure that is what you mean since we all Know that the leaders do not ratify our contracts
the Members do when they vote.

TWU members get to vote on unimportant issues or sure things. The important issues are decided by the appointed officials, who know best.

.

 

[The Goose]

Well there would have been some differences with AMFA and the A&P would have probably been tended to a little better,
but as far as the big picture goes Pay & Benefits would not have necessarily went up, look what happened to Northwest,
their Pay and Benefits are not up, it is really the Members that decide Pay & Benefits not the Organization itself.
I think the days of AMFA at AA are over for a very long time because of what happened at Northwest.

People have seen that changing Unions does not guarantee success.

Members are more of a concern than the name over the Door or even the Leadership.

There's also this small issue of supply and demand with regard to aircraft mechanics, or any other trade, for that matter.

You may not have been in the work-world when the big people-demand was for data processing. Everybody and their blasted dog went to school to learn about computers (I AM an old fart); so many,in fact, they cut their own throats by the supply of bodies far outstripping the demand; the pay rates dropping off the cliff and crashing at the bottom.

The same theory goes for aircraft mechanics. Less than 1000 at NWA due to the Republican (synonymous with big business and campaign contributions) embrace of outsourcing. There's 9000+ mechanics loose - where did they go and for what pay? How many other airlines that once did their own maintenance have outsourced that work to God-knows-where? How many mechanics did those actions displace? What I'm asking is: "How many loose mechanics are out there chasing a paycheck?" The answer is "many", and quite a few are finding work at the 'chop-shops' but at a considerably lesser payscale because of the oversupply in the trade, and in taking that job, sets the market rate.

By contrast, consider the inability of the manufacturing sector in Tulsa to find machinists that are worth a damn and can pass a drug test. The wages for these people went down the tubes about 20+ years ago. These people found other things to do with themselves. Some area shops are paying their machine-trades personnel what some aircraft mechanics still believe they are worth to start, just to steal them away from non-responsive employers.

Worth? Perhaps, but the businesses will always fall back to the lowest common denominator when there's an oversupply in a particular trade. These devils have weekly reports sent to them telling if they're paying the 'knuckle-draggers' too much. There are companies out there that gladly provide this manner of info., for a fee, of course.

AA, mainly because of peer pressure (other airlines) and what they perceive as the 'market rate', is in no hurry to set a precident re: mechanic pay and benefits. This would be the business equivalent of messing the nest.

Just remember - if we could figure a way to take what we want from the shareholders (as the executives did with their stock bonuses) and not from the company ( as would be the case with operating expenses such as mechanic wages and benefits), we could probably have all we wanted, providing we didn't foul up the executive paydays (shareholder rape), regardless of which union or association collects the dues.

 

[The Goose]

That was the point I was trying to make along with looking out for the best interest of our craft and class by leaving the twu can be done without burning every bridge on the way out the door. I am fully aware of the jobs lost to FSC as a result of FSC controlling this union, but I'm also painfully aware of the fact that we came of 27 cards short in 2004 and there are over 1,200 FSC cleaners (non-card signers) who are part of our craft and class and many are under the impression that if we ever left the twu, they would be out of a job the next day as a result of some AMT's attitudes towards them. The same can be said for title 2, where over 80% refused to sign cards, or the over 75% of non-licensed title 1 mechanics who refused to sign. I totally understand with what your saying, but the only ones to blame for the injustices we have been served by the FSC dominated union are ourselves for not ousting this union sometime over the past 60 years. Sure we can #### and complain about what went down at the NMB, but the bottom line is if we put another 1,000 cards on the table at the NMB back in 2004, there is no discussion about the twu today.

You'll find a very good example of the "why" part of what you're saying in aafsc's post (up some), #245.

 

[MCDP]

There's also this small issue of supply and demand with regard to aircraft mechanics, or any other trade, for that matter.

You may not have been in the work-world when the big people-demand was for data processing. Everybody and their blasted dog went to school to learn about computers (I AM an old fart); so many,in fact, they cut their own throats by the supply of bodies far outstripping the demand; the pay rates dropping off the cliff and crashing at the bottom.

The same theory goes for aircraft mechanics. Less than 1000 at NWA due to the Republican (synonymous with big business and campaign contributions) embrace of outsourcing. There's 9000+ mechanics loose - where did they go and for what pay? How many other airlines that once did their own maintenance have outsourced that work to God-knows-where? How many mechanics did those actions displace? What I'm asking is: "How many loose mechanics are out there chasing a paycheck?" The answer is "many", and quite a few are finding work at the 'chop-shops' but at a considerably lesser payscale because of the oversupply in the trade.

By contrast, consider the inability of the manufacturing sector in Tulsa to find machinists that are worth a damn and can pass a drug test. The wages for these people went down the tubes about 20+ years ago. These people found other things to do with themselves. Some area shops are paying their machine-trades personnel what some aircraft mechanics still believe they are worth to start, just to steal them away from non-responsive employers.

Worth? Perhaps, but the businesses will always fall back to the lowest common denominator when there's an oversupply in a particular trade. These devils have weekly reports sent to them telling if they're paying the 'knuckle-draggers' too much. There are companies out there that gladly provide this manner of info., for a fee, of course.

AA, mainly because of peer pressure (other airlines) and what they perceive as the 'market rate', is in no hurry to set a precident re: mechanic pay and benefits. This would be the business equivalent of messing the nest.

Just remember - if we could figure a way to take what we want from the shareholders (as the executives did with their stock bonuses) and not from the company ( as would be the case with operating expenses such as mechanic wages and benefits), we could probably have all we wanted, providing we didn't foul up the executive paydays (shareholder rape), regardless of which union or association collects the dues.

Well said.