Bottom Line

[donttouchthebeauty]

<_< aa,--- aa,--- aa! Your still hung up in the past! Conceder this one! The Industry is about to go through another round of consolidation. AA has been socking money away just for such a time. They have, at last count, at least, six, plus, billion Dollars on had.------- Now comes the question! Do you see another TWA on the horizon? And do you feel you personally will be as fortunate in it's outcome if there is? :unsure: ------ What I'm saying is maybe you had better not stop looking for those school buses! They still maybe headed down I95 after all, but full of someone else besides exTWAers!

Why, with 6 billion on hand, I would see no reason to not get a big fat pay raise... Seems like they are fighting it hand over fist though ... LOL... Seriously, everyone is stockpiling cash, not just AA... And look at the debt loads as well, AMR has alot left to be desired, especially in the current economy with high fuel, and a fleet of mostly super80s...

 

[aafsc]

<_< aa,--- aa,--- aa! Your still hung up in the past! Conceder this one! The Industry is about to go through another round of consolidation. AA has been socking money away just for such a time. They have, at last count, at least, six, plus, billion Dollars on had.------- Now comes the question! Do you see another TWA on the horizon? And do you feel you personally will be as fortunate in it's outcome if there is? :unsure: ------ What I'm saying is maybe you had better not stop looking for those school buses! They still maybe headed down I95 after all, but full of someone else besides exTWAers!

In my opinion, AA will not participate in the next round of consolidation. Tilton and Parker have made it clear that they feel consolidation is necessary; even Anderson at DL says it is possible. But if AA did enter into a merger with another airline, chances are that that airline will not be on death's door and, in fact, will be making money. I would expect the TWU to do everything possible to protect my and my coworker's interest regarding seniority. I suspect that both employee groups would have protections in their contracts. But who knows what will happen in the future; for all we know AA could be sold off in pieces. In that event, many very well could find themselves seeking employment elsewhere.

 

[aafsc]

That is his or hers main purpose of being on this thread and for this site for that matter. AAFSC is not part of our craft and class so he or she tries to dig up any dirt, do some pot stirring to try to prevent us from leaving the twu, but rarely ever finds fault with his or hers beloved twu.

Assessing AMFA's performance at other airlines is not "digging up dirt"; but instead stating results. I'm not "trying to prevent" you from going to AMFA; I "encourage" you to go if that is what you desire. And Goose, since I am not in your craft and class, I can neither hinder you nor help you. If it were possible, I would sign a thousand cards in support of your efforts for an election.

 

[aafsc]

You can verify this by disclosing your name and station. Until then I still maintain you're attempting the TWU skill of deceiving us. You are more than just a dues payer that likes to debate. I smell a rat.

BTW, my Local is now as bad as the International at licking the company boot. The leaders even admit publicly they are in bed with management.

Also, cleaners and custodians are also dedicated Mechanic and Related by the NMB.

Then you must be smelling your own bad breath because I am nothing more than a dues paying ramper that enjoys debating. You know my classification and where I work. I have no desire to post my name and even if I did you would probably accuse me of using someone else's name on the seniority list.

Also, aircraft cleaning work is presently performed by "fleetservice", why do you object to "subsidizing" those people now but apparently would not object to "subsidization" if those same people did the same job under an AMFA contract? Same with the custodians?

 

[The Goose]

Then you must be smelling your own bad breath because I am nothing more than a dues paying ramper that enjoys debating. You know my classification and where I work. I have no desire to post my name and even if I did you would probably accuse me of using someone else's name on the seniority list.

Also, aircraft cleaning work is presently performed by "fleetservice", why do you object to "subsidizing" those people now but apparently would not object to "subsidization" if those same people did the same job under an AMFA contract? Same with the custodians?

Dave has a major problem when it comes to stirring the pot. He's seems to be unhappy when not identifying a coworker as a stooge, lackey, bootlicker, or liability and hindrance to his well being, yet is unable to figure out why the individuals in question don't support his position, but ignore him and consider him an elitist representative of the association he pushes.

He's made many good points re: the uselessness of the twu, but his presentation method couldn't sell a whore to the Navy. OK - maybe I'm being too harsh on the guy, but I do believe a more reasonable and measured approach is the better way, by staying away from the alarmist overtones.

We've all, at one time or another, had our ears bent by the 'born again' sort and the 'tree huggers' and the 'eco-freaks'. Their sheer desperation turns most people off immediately and drives them away from the message by making the presenter appear to be a raving fool. Dave does it, Chuck Shalk does it, and while what they say is basically true, the presentation is laughable and turns people away; it also tends to add credibility to the misinformation coming from the real twu supporters rather than showing same to be false.

 

[Raptor]

The company has claimed the opposite for the 20plus years that I've been around. Its the TWU that has blocked "location wages".




Well if you want to look at it your way,whats the market rate for C checks? Why should a C-check in Tulsa cost more than a C-check in Guatemala? The fact is the only reason you make what you make , and not closer to what they make in Guatamala, is because of the fact that your contract is our contract. Consider that as you talk about market rates.

If the company ever sits and really examines how much they are losing by underpaying 4000 line mechanics so they can overpay(according to your "market rate" approach) 6000 in Tulsa then you are screwed.

Looking at things the way you do then the company should cut wages in Tulsa because they could still get people for half of what they are paying you right? How many jobs pay $15/hr in Tulsa?

The fact is that the company has blown through their recall list in NY. Some of the smaller carriers like North American have had ads in the papers for months looking for A&Ps at JFK. Thats one of the reasons why AA is getting all those contracts, because these other carriers cant find workers. If the FAA ever cracked down on the amount of hours an A&P could work then those other airlines, who hire AA and other airlines workers as part timers, would be screwed.




So basically you are saying that we shouldnt bother with having a union and allow the market to determine our wages.



We need to get a real union.

Regional pay is something that most industries have, including the government. The airline industry didnt need it before because the wages earned in places like Tulsa were primarily based upon what was needed in places like NY. As a result people with a High School diploma at best were earning wages comparable to doctors in places like Tulsa. We always earned slightly below similarly situated people, but the gap has widened intolerably. A TWU mechanic in NY earns about $25,000 a year LESS than Jim Littles secretary.

Not all airlines had their OH in cheap low cost areas, that also mitigated the negative effects of having the majority of our contract group in a low cost area. It also kept wages in Tulsa higher. However that is no longer the case. AA now has the highest paid full service overhaul mechanics in the US MRO industry. However they are experiencing increased delays and cancellations on the line because of poor morale. Poor morale caused by poor pay rates. Most of the people they had on their recall list are not coming back, the majority of those who returned to their positions had never left AA.

So the "market rate" is kicking in, however since the union has nothing to do with it and most on the line cant stand the TWU where do you think the company is going to set their sights this time brother? They can't cut the line because they have already cut below the market rate and the poor morale is affecting their bottom line. While the majority on the line no longer go the extra mile they dont go out of their way to find things that would pull the plane out of service either, any sort of cut would definately trigger a job action on the line, in fact its just an incident away. How much do you think they could cut in Tulsa and still get people?

Are they going to go after those that they are having trouble keeping? Are they going to target the ones who directly affect their schedule? Or are they going after those who still live with Doctors?

If AA did decide to spin off OH where should we on the line stand? Should we say"Let the market determine OH rates of pay", like you are saying about the line? I know, you will threaten that you guys will all bump to the line, well all they have to do is fail you on the trade test to stop that, do you think all these supervisors out here or the company want someone from the blade weld shop(which is highly skilled job-but not needed on the line) doing live gate calls where seconds makes all the difference between an on time departure and a delay?

Cutting wages for line mechanics cost the company more than it saved. Sure they could easily see the lower wages but measuring how much they lost through delays, cancellations, unnecissary parts changes, increased use of consumables, OT, etc is much harder to measure but it adds up. Workers have to make up what the company took, so they work the OT. There is no incentive to work harder especially if its going to take away the OT needed to survive.

When AA gave mechanics a raise in 2001 it cost the company nothing. OT dissapeared and AA had its best reliability ever. Many mechanics made the same in 2000 as they did in 2002, because there no longer was any OT to be had. When a mechanic is making OT it generally means a plane is out of service. When mechanics got their raise the hangars were empty during the day, when the pay was cut they started to be occupied again.


All AA needs to do is give 4000 line mechs back everything (including adjustments for inflation) and they could still let attrition shrink the workforce another 15% and still have the best on time stats in the industry. The cuts in manpower, increased productivity, reduced OT and a more efficient use of parts and materiel through more vigorous troubleshooting would more than cover the increases in wages per mechanic. Its a formula that has worked well for SWA and UPS for many years.

So limit if its "every man for themselves" and "markets rates" you advocate, fine, lets go non-union, or stay with the TWU as it is and see who takes the biggest hit. At this point we dont have much to lose.

I really think the company should give high cost area's a cola based on a formula possibly from the Government, but as you say Bob it
is the TWU that is not allowing a cola to happen, they are insisting that everyone get paid the same regardless of where you live,
if they continue that stand then most likely the line will get hosed again because most of us seem to be pretty sure that AA is
not going to give 25,000 TWU Members everything back they lost, I think they would be willing to give the high cost area line guys back at least the money they lost and the Overhauls a lesser amount but the TWU leadership and Members would have to buy off on it.
Will they do that ? It has not happened in the past 40 years at AA so it would definetly be breaking new ground.
It was brought up at the precontract overhaul meeting by Louis though so who knows.

 

[Bob Owens]

I think they would be willing to give the high cost area line guys back at least the money they lost and the Overhauls a lesser amount but the TWU leadership and Members would have to buy off on it.
Will they do that ? It has not happened in the past 40 years at AA so it would definetly be breaking new ground.
It was brought up at the precontract overhaul meeting by Louis though so who knows.

What makes you think they wouldnt buy off on it if it went to a vote? Tulsa has passed every other concession that TWU has thrown in front of them for the last twenty years.

 

[Raptor]

What makes you think they wouldnt buy off on it if it went to a vote? Tulsa has passed every other concession that TWU has thrown in front of them for the last twenty years.

You have a good point they might buy off on it, but someone has to put the offer in front of us first
so far the only contracts I have seen are ones with all Mechanics making the same pay.

Why do you think that is ?

It has to be the Negotiating committee not wanting the line to make more than Overhaul right ?
or do you have another theory.

 

[Bob Owens]

You have a good point they might buy off on it, but someone has to put the offer in front of us first
so far the only contracts I have seen are ones with all Mechanics making the same pay.

Why do you think that is ?

It has to be the Negotiating committee not wanting the line to make more than Overhaul right ?
or do you have another theory.

Why? Not sure. I personally would rather see a reasonable wage for us that would allow the Tulsa guys to live like kings. The problem is Tulsa is willing to accept less to the point where we cant survive.

Dont bother blaming the negotiating committee because the fact is they really have no say in the contract since they do not have the authority to negotiate with the company. The International owns the contract. As your President what percentage of the time they spend there is actually sitting across from the company.

The negotiating committee is nothing but a facade to give the illusion that elected officials are negotiating the contract. The fact is at any time the International could simply dispense with the committee and impose whatever they want, but if they did that the most likely result would be decertification. So, they take these 20 or so guys, lock them into a room and simply eliminate all options until the only thing left is what the International agreed to. They give the illusion that the committee came up with the agreement.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Lets go over the TWU puff factor again......
The Twu came out with strong words recently (aka Puff) just as they did in 2003.
remember the "rejected contract" in early march 2003?
Then the TWU caved in and told us we had to agree to all the concessions.
Well this time is no different, the twu (conley,Burchette, and Little) will talk strong words now(Puff) and then shut up over the holidays. Then after the new year talk some more and nothing will happen until late march where the attitude will change to working with AA to save something again!
How does a company union like the TWU switch hats to pretend to be a real union when they have helped the company get what they want up to this point! now they are trying to convince us that we got screwed! I think we know and stop the TWU from insulting what ever intelligence we have left after their poor representation.

 

[Raptor]

Why? Not sure. I personally would rather see a reasonable wage for us that would allow the Tulsa guys to live like kings. The problem is Tulsa is willing to accept less to the point where we cant survive.

Dont bother blaming the negotiating committee because the fact is they really have no say in the contract since they do not have the authority to negotiate with the company. The International owns the contract. As your President what percentage of the time they spend there is actually sitting across from the company.

The negotiating committee is nothing but a facade to give the illusion that elected officials are negotiating the contract. The fact is at any time the International could simply dispense with the committee and impose whatever they want, but if they did that the most likely result would be decertification. So, they take these 20 or so guys, lock them into a room and simply eliminate all options until the only thing left is what the International agreed to. They give the illusion that the committee came up with the agreement.

Many Mechanics like to compare our pay to UPS and of course we are not a cargo company so you really can't compare
the two, in an attempt to make my point to a fellow Mechanic in the shop, I pulled up UPS Ceo total compensation to
compare it to AMR total compenstation, I was expecting to find UPS Ceo compensation to be much higher than AMR
just like it is with Mechanics, to my surprise that is not the case.
Here are the links to their pay.
AMR CEO Total compensation : http://investing.businessweek.com/business...r%20Lines%20Inc.

UPS CEO Total compensation: http://investing.businessweek.com/business...ervice%2C%20Inc.

When you look at these links go down to the total compensation not just the base salary.
CEO get most of their compensation in the form of stock not base salary.

Life really isn't fair is it. :angry:

 

[FWAAA]

Why? Not sure. I personally would rather see a reasonable wage for us that would allow the Tulsa guys to live like kings. The problem is Tulsa is willing to accept less to the point where we cant survive.

You guys on the line in expensive cities deserve to be paid 50% to 100% more than you are right now. Before the concessions, you guys in NYC or SAN or LAX or SFO were already paid much less than reasonable. But even post-concessions, the overhaul guys are still living like kings in Tulsa, Fort Worth and Kansas City on your now poverty-level wages.

No doubt AA is gonna have to cough up some money for raises in 2008. But there isn't a chance in hell it gives every mechanic a $40k or $50k or $60k raise so that you guys on the line finally get paid decent money.

Sure, the overhaul guys are willing to accept less. What I can't figure out is why you line guys are willing to accept the same dollar amount. But accept it you have. For four and a half years. You've accepted substandard pay for over 20 years now. Easy to see how there's no rush on the part of the overhaul guys to cut their pay so you can have more and easy to see how there's no rush by the Company to pay more to everybody - enough people keep coming to work in exchange for the poverty-level wages.

 

[Bob Owens]

Many Mechanics like to compare our pay to UPS and of course we are not a cargo company so you really can't compare the two,

Why cant we compare? Because the company and their lapdog union tell us we cant? Why shouldnt we compare? In fact we are fools not to include UPS pay in any comparasion. When our executives and Jim Little talk about their pay they dont confine the comparasion to the airline industry.

 

[Bob Owens]

You guys on the line in expensive cities deserve to be paid 50% to 100% more than you are right now. Before the concessions, you guys in NYC or SAN or LAX or SFO were already paid much less than reasonable. But even post-concessions, the overhaul guys are still living like kings in Tulsa, Fort Worth and Kansas City on your now poverty-level wages.

No doubt AA is gonna have to cough up some money for raises in 2008. But there isn't a chance in hell it gives every mechanic a $40k or $50k or $60k raise so that you guys on the line finally get paid decent money.

Sure, the overhaul guys are willing to accept less. What I can't figure out is why you line guys are willing to accept the same dollar amount. But accept it you have. For four and a half years. You've accepted substandard pay for over 20 years now. Easy to see how there's no rush on the part of the overhaul guys to cut their pay so you can have more and easy to see how there's no rush by the Company to pay more to everybody - enough people keep coming to work in exchange for the poverty-level wages.

th
There you go again with you smug simplistic answer of 'if you dont like it leave". We have already gone over why we choose to stay and fight so its no use going over it again with you since you obviuosly didnt understand then and likely never will.

 

[TWU informer]

The Transport Workers Union of America at American Airlines is in negotiations with a corporation that is well aware that the majority of members signed authorization cards to hold an election by the National Mediation Board to remove the TWU as the bargaining agent for the Mechanic and Related Craft or Class.

A corporation that saves a union from a vote of the membership by the Federal Government that would have resulted in the removal of them from the bargaining table has zero leverage to make gains in the negotiations.

The corporation will force a show of support from the membership before any so-called "demands" of restoring the 2003 Concessions will be addressed. And the membership will show individual resolve but not unified resolve.

Given the fact that the International Leadership of the TWU has never been subjected to a membership ballot, and given the membership wanted to remove the TWU as the bargaining agent, I predict that we either face another round of TWU concessions, or a complete breakdown of the union as an organization.

The TWU is unable to recognize the demise and risk that the organization has placed the membership into by it's constant disregard for the membership desires at the International level.

When the corporation knows the membership is not supportive of the negotiators and the leaders are foolish enough to continue past bluffs of strength even after the truth has been exposed. We can all be assured that these negotations will be the most difficult and lengthy ever faced by the American Airlines Mechanic and Related group.

The conduct of the TWU and the placement of our livelyhoods into the hands of such a farce should be against the law and punishable under the Railway Labor Act and the United States Constitution.

The company union will not survive this incredible negative position that the dictators have placed our futures into!