Bottom Line

[The Goose]

th
There you go again with you smug simplistic answer of 'if you dont like it leave". We have already gone over why we choose to stay and fight so its no use going over it again with you since you obviuosly didnt understand then and likely never will.

Bob:

I really don't care for fwaaa's 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude either, but to put it a different way, once one takes a job at a given rate pay or remains in a job for a given rate of pay, the market rate is established and in that regard only, is correct.

The only way to establish a different rate is for the positions in question to remain unfilled until what is thought to be a reasonable rate of pay is reached, then a new rate is established.

Think that will happen anytime soon? There's too many mechanics trying to find a home for their toolboxes. A&P certificate brokers like Spartan keep cranking out those with hope, but no future; very much like the executives did with their bonus shares when they were sold. It's called dilution and happens both with share prices and rates of pay.

The market rate for mechs will stay low until enough won't take available jobs for what's offered or refuse to reenter the aviation field cutting the available pool of workers. It would also help if the certificate mills would shut down. With their continued "assistance" in cranking out "graduates" and keeping the worker pool large enough for airlines and chop shops alike to suppress wages claiming "market" rates, what do we expect? Why do you think airlines are happy to "assist" aviation schools? Because it's cheaper than paying a decent wage. Cut the number of mechanics through attrition and those remaining could name their price; not exactly what the airlines had in mind.

Arpey and minions are safe in wanting to do location based compensation, knowing full well the twu won't go for it. "... but we proposed it - your union said no" is a tactic no different than the democrats in washington proposing legislation that would seem to go against their pet special interests, knowing very well the republicans won't go for it either. They're safe from further expense and know it, shifting the job of selling the snake oil to the union and it provides a rather amusing show of "good against evil" for those who still believe their opinion counts.

You've said it yourself - neither side has our interests in mind. Now, let's get back to herding cats.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ I heard some of the boys talking about a forty one million Dollar "special charge" taken against last quarters statement! The charge was apparently made without explanation. Some have speculated that it was to bring supervisors pay back up to pre-concessionary levels! Has anyone heard anything about this?----- :unsure:

 

[Hopeful]

<_< ------ I heard some of the boys talking about a forty one million Dollar "special charge" taken against last quarters statement! The charge was apparently made without explanation. Some have speculated that it was to bring supervisors pay back up to pre-concessionary levels! Has anyone heard anything about this?----- :unsure:

Not sure if that's the special charge, but I do know that this shuffling around of management was a sham.
They cut some heads and made most of the other level 4 supervisors level 5.. What a joke..These level 5's did get various amounts of pay increases. They were able to do this by getting rid of heads. Even those who only saw paltry increases will in the future see increases more in tune to their new levels.

What a joke!

 

[Bob Owens]

Not sure if that's the special charge, but I do know that this shuffling around of management was a sham.
They cut some heads and made most of the other level 4 supervisors level 5.. What a joke..These level 5's did get various amounts of pay increases. They were able to do this by getting rid of heads. Even those who only saw paltry increases will in the future see increases more in tune to their new levels.

What a joke!

They may have cut a few individuals but I dont think they actaully cut any heads because there are still openings.

The pay increases that resulted from the Title changes will be refected as inceased labor costs. Another thing you can throw back at your worthless TWU when they cite why they didnt get more for us.

 

[FWAAA]

th
There you go again with you smug simplistic answer of 'if you dont like it leave". We have already gone over why we choose to stay and fight so its no use going over it again with you since you obviuosly didnt understand then and likely never will.

Wrong again, Mr Owens. I'm well aware of your rationalizations for staying with an employer that refuses to fairly compensate you.

I didn't tell you to leave if you don't like it. All I pointed out was the obvious (at least to me): You and the other line mechanics have worked for substandard wages for over 20 (going on 25?) years now; gonna be an uphill battle to convince AA or the overhaul mechanics that your pay is suddenly unacceptably paltry. When you accept something for nearly a quarter century, claims that it is now defficient are likely to fall on deaf ears. Good luck convincing the company and the union that you need more money.

 

[FWAAA]

<_< ------ I heard some of the boys talking about a forty one million Dollar "special charge" taken against last quarters statement! The charge was apparently made without explanation. Some have speculated that it was to bring supervisors pay back up to pre-concessionary levels! Has anyone heard anything about this?----- :unsure:

Here's the explanation of the charge from the 10-Q:

2. During the three months ended September 30, 2007, the Company recorded a charge of $40 million to correct certain vacation accruals included in Wages, salaries and benefits expense. Of this amount, $30 million related to the years 2003 through 2006 and $10 million related to the six months ended June 30, 2007. The adjustment was made in the 2007 third quarter as the amount of the adjustment was not material to prior periods, expected 2007 results or the trend of earnings in any period. This materiality evaluation included, among other things, the consideration of an individually immaterial out-of-period correction previously recorded in the second quarter of 2007 that had an offsetting impact of approximately $14 million. The immaterial adjustment from the second quarter of 2007 related to a revenue related estimate.

 

[The Goose]

<_< ------ I heard some of the boys talking about a forty one million Dollar "special charge" taken against last quarters statement! The charge was apparently made without explanation. Some have speculated that it was to bring supervisors pay back up to pre-concessionary levels! Has anyone heard anything about this?----- :unsure:

Very much as General Motors did and admitted they did, negative charges are deferred until they can be used to offset income and therefore, the tax bill.

In the case of AMR, this is the same logic - offsetting income, but to appear to be in worse financial shape than the corp. really is.

There were a number of quarters in the 90s where many charges came out of the woodwork for just this purpose, then after labor contracts were signed, the corporation was in good enough shape to spend money like drunken sailors.

Nothing new and earth-shattering - just accounting tricks repackaged and sold to the unions' membership as snake oil.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ For us simple mined exTWAers, "their tryen to hide the money!!!"

 

[MCI transplant]

Near where I live in LA (in the Valley), three bedroom ranches of 1400 - 1600 sq ft, typically built in the late '50s or early '60s are currently selling for about $550k to $650k depending on location. Gang infested industrial areas near Van Nuys tend to the lower end while safer, quieter neighborhoods in the Woodland Hills area tend toward the higher end. Almost nothing less than $500k anywhere in Los Angeles and, of course, sky's the limit on the other end.

I seriously doubt that any Tulsa AA overhaul employee lives in a house that small or that old. No doubt some live high on the hog in $250k mini-mansions (which would cost Ken MacTiernan in SAN or Bob Owens in NYC easily $1.0 million or $1.5 million or more).

AA's gotta have line maintenance in those high cost cities and it makes some sense to overhaul airplanes in lower-cost areas. Imagine if the overhaul shops were all at LAX, SFO, SAN, JFK, MIA and ORD (all much more expensive cities than TUL or MCI or DFW). If that were the case, there's no way the TWU membership would settle for the mid-60 thousands like it currently does. The guys from Tulsa or Kansas City or Dallas would demand $100k or $120k so they wouldn't have to live in a hovel in a gang-infested ghetto.

The huge problem is that the guys at the overhaul cities, although pissed off at the paycuts, aren't hurting anywhere near as much as the line stations. The concessions chopped the overhaul guys down from being some of the highest paid blue collar guys in their towns to perhaps somewhat better than average paid blue collar guys in those towns.

In the high-cost line cities, the paycuts chopped those guys down from average or less than average blue collar pay to damned near poverty pay.

I can understand how the overhaul guys keep coming to work every day. As I've posted before, it's still good money in TUL, MCI or DFW.

What I can't understand is how so many guys in the high-cost line stations keep showing up for less money than young police officers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than municipal bus drivers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than hard-working guys at a Mr Goodwrench dealership. To call them dedicated would be a huge understatement. They're addicted.

<_< ------- FWAA! You arn't trying to put a wedge between line stations and overhaul now are you?------ NO! NOT YOU!!!! :down:

 

[MCI transplant]

Near where I live in LA (in the Valley), three bedroom ranches of 1400 - 1600 sq ft, typically built in the late '50s or early '60s are currently selling for about $550k to $650k depending on location. Gang infested industrial areas near Van Nuys tend to the lower end while safer, quieter neighborhoods in the Woodland Hills area tend toward the higher end. Almost nothing less than $500k anywhere in Los Angeles and, of course, sky's the limit on the other end.

I seriously doubt that any Tulsa AA overhaul employee lives in a house that small or that old. No doubt some live high on the hog in $250k mini-mansions (which would cost Ken MacTiernan in SAN or Bob Owens in NYC easily $1.0 million or $1.5 million or more).

AA's gotta have line maintenance in those high cost cities and it makes some sense to overhaul airplanes in lower-cost areas. Imagine if the overhaul shops were all at LAX, SFO, SAN, JFK, MIA and ORD (all much more expensive cities than TUL or MCI or DFW). If that were the case, there's no way the TWU membership would settle for the mid-60 thousands like it currently does. The guys from Tulsa or Kansas City or Dallas would demand $100k or $120k so they wouldn't have to live in a hovel in a gang-infested ghetto.

The huge problem is that the guys at the overhaul cities, although pissed off at the paycuts, aren't hurting anywhere near as much as the line stations. The concessions chopped the overhaul guys down from being some of the highest paid blue collar guys in their towns to perhaps somewhat better than average paid blue collar guys in those towns.

In the high-cost line cities, the paycuts chopped those guys down from average or less than average blue collar pay to damned near poverty pay.

I can understand how the overhaul guys keep coming to work every day. As I've posted before, it's still good money in TUL, MCI or DFW.

What I can't understand is how so many guys in the high-cost line stations keep showing up for less money than young police officers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than municipal bus drivers tend to make in those cities. For a lot less $$$ than hard-working guys at a Mr Goodwrench dealership. To call them dedicated would be a huge understatement. They're addicted.

<_< ------ FWAA, It seems you like quoting realestate prices there in L.A. But what your alluding to is that all your AA employees living in LA are paying those prices on their mortgages. Now you know, and I know, that may not be the case! If you've lived in your home any length of time at all, I'm quit sure you paid a lot less than the figures you've quoted! I came from a "high dollar area" originally, I know how the game is played to get into those "high dollar homes"! Tell me if I'm wrong! You buy a house, the most you can afford! Live in it three to five years! Take the equity out of it and buy up! Do it again! And again! In fifteen, to twenty years, guess what? You're living in a house worth half a mill, or more! Everyone's doing it in places like L.A., and that's one of the main motivators for the upward spiral in price in places like that! As long as you can afford the taxes, your O.K. But when that time comes when you can't! It's time to "cash out" and move to places like TUL., or MCI! Now that may not be an option for everyone! But it's good to know "it is an option!"

 

[Bob Owens]

Wrong again, Mr Owens. I'm well aware of your rationalizations for staying with an employer that refuses to fairly compensate you.

I didn't tell you to leave if you don't like it. All I pointed out was the obvious (at least to me): You and the other line mechanics have worked for substandard wages for over 20 (going on 25?) years now; gonna be an uphill battle to convince AA or the overhaul mechanics that your pay is suddenly unacceptably paltry. When you accept something for nearly a quarter century, claims that it is now defficient are likely to fall on deaf ears. Good luck convincing the company and the union that you need more money.

Well the fact is that we have voted against most of these contracts and yes to striking. We know its an uphill battle but the choice is either fight or learn a new skill and start a new career. It may still come to that, and already has for many of my former coworkers. In the meantime passengers should just get used to delays and cancellations because most workers are no longer willing to go the extra mile to make things work.

 

[Bob Owens]

<_< ------ FWAA, It seems you like quoting realestate prices there in L.A. But what your alluding to is that all your AA employees living in LA are paying those prices on their mortgages. Now you know, and I know, that may not be the case! If you've lived in your home any length of time at all, I'm quit sure you paid a lot less than the figures you've quoted! I came from a "high dollar area" originally, I know how the game is played to get into those "high dollar homes"! Tell me if I'm wrong!

You're wrong.

I've lived in the same house for 15years and if I was starting out I could not afford to buy the home I live in. FWAA cited a small home (1400-1600sqft) for $550,000 to $650,000. Thats not a trade up, its a starter for half a milion.

Everyone's doing it in places like L.A., and that's one of the main motivators for the upward spiral in price in places like that!

That and artificial demand created by unsound lending practices. People where allowed to borrow more than they could really afford, as long as the banks provided the credit it kept prices high.

Now that may not be an option for everyone! But it's good to know "it is an option!"

Perhaps, if you dont like your relatives, but many of us have strong family ties, if the choice must be made between leaving our families for a few extra bucks or leaving the company then we have to leave the company. Companies can never be counted on for support should you need it like family can.

 

[Raptor]

You're wrong.

I've lived in the same house for 15years and if I was starting out I could not afford to buy the home I live in. FWAA cited a small home (1400-1600sqft) for $550,000 to $650,000. Thats not a trade up, its a starter for half a milion.




That and artificial demand created by unsound lending practices. People where allowed to borrow more than they could really afford, as long as the banks provided the credit it kept prices high.



Perhaps, if you dont like your relatives, but many of us have strong family ties, if the choice must be made between leaving our families for a few extra bucks or leaving the company then we have to leave the company. Companies can never be counted on for support should you need it like family can.

I certainly would never leave Tulsa, not because of family but because I was born here and like it here, I would leave AA long before
I would leave Tulsa.

 

[MCI transplant]

I certainly would never leave Tulsa, not because of family but because I was born here and like it here, I would leave AA long before
I would leave Tulsa.

<_< ------- Yea! And that's why dinosaurs are extinct!

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ Bob, You've missed my point! We're talking about people already living in these "High Dollar" city's! Not people moving in! You've lived in your house 15 years. Let's say it's worth $500,000. Let's say you have $350,000 in equity. You could pull that money out, pay cash for a 3,000sqft house on acreage here in MCI!------- But I realize this is not an option for everyone!