APA Pilots Reject TA

[WorldTraveler]

AA also has to have costs on par with true low cost carriers, of which B6 is one, or it will be guaranteed that AA will simply dismantle most of what B6 already flies and gain few benefits other than holding a bunch of NYC slots that they can't profitably use - the situation they are in right now.

We still don't know if NW was required to settle its labor contracts in order to exit BK by law, by requirements of its creditors, or if it was close enough w/ the FAs that they decided it was worth not carrying the risk of unsettled labor contracts back outside of BK. NW was given approval by the BK court to emerge more than a week before the FAs ratified the contract.
http://www.startribune.com/business/11217186.html?refer=y

We don't know w/ certainty that AA is required to renegotiate permanent labor contracts or that it would before exiting.

Tom,
if AA's primary purpose in seeking BK was to cut labor costs, it is not going to decide at the last minute that they have to "do" a merger and will ditch their need to cut costs. If cutting costs is what they intended to do and believe they need long term to survive, they aren't going to change their mind at the last minute just to merge.... and where is B6 going if AA doesn't go after them?

Finally, AA's money is all borrowed and has been for years. It doesn't really matter how much they came into BK with; the only difference between them and other carriers is that AA borrowed it before it was apparent they would need to file BK and kept their cash reserves high enough that they didn't need debtor in possession financing - and can probably exit w/o obtaining exit financing. Those steps just make their BK process a little less complicated and might lower the cost of BK somewhat but the money would have been borrowed one way or the other.

 

[riceweevil]

1)Of course there are global opportunities. I already know one AA pilot who went on to a Middle East carrier a few years ago actually...happy from what I hear..
2)Regarding me flying on a regional jet with "inexperienced" pilots, I'm quite confident they will be fine pilots and I really don't have too much concern. Apropos, 95% of my flights are on mainline...



What's "deserve" here? Maybe one should be careful what one asks for... <_<

Yeah, AA management better be careful what they wish for concerning the pilots.

 

[737823]

Yeah, AA management better be careful what they wish for concerning the pilots.

AA management will prevail, plenty of pilots looking for work on furlough, currently working for regionals and with air force experience.

Josh

 

[tom barry]

AA also has to have costs on par with true low cost carriers, of which B6 is one, or it will be guaranteed that AA will simply dismantle most of what B6 already flies and gain few benefits other than holding a bunch of NYC slots that they can't profitably use - the situation they are in right now.

We still don't know if NW was required to settle its labor contracts in order to exit BK by law, by requirements of its creditors, or if it was close enough w/ the FAs that they decided it was worth not carrying the risk of unsettled labor contracts back outside of BK. NW was given approval by the BK court to emerge more than a week before the FAs ratified the contract.
http://www.startribu...86.html?refer=y

We don't know w/ certainty that AA is required to renegotiate permanent labor contracts or that it would before exiting.

Tom,
if AA's primary purpose in seeking BK was to cut labor costs, it is not going to decide at the last minute that they have to "do" a merger and will ditch their need to cut costs. If cutting costs is what they intended to do and believe they need long term to survive, they aren't going to change their mind at the last minute just to merge.... and where is B6 going if AA doesn't go after them?

Finally, AA's money is all borrowed and has been for years. It doesn't really matter how much they came into BK with; the only difference between them and other carriers is that AA borrowed it before it was apparent they would need to file BK and kept their cash reserves high enough that they didn't need debtor in possession financing - and can probably exit w/o obtaining exit financing. Those steps just make their BK process a little less complicated and might lower the cost of BK somewhat but the money would have been borrowed one way or the other.

World Traveler,
I NOTICED that even before I made my post, that even You wouldn't say that APA's rejection was a BAD Move.

NO ONE, more than you(and AMR) knows how much UA and DL would be SALIVATING over a medium to long term " beef " between AA and the folks that Fly the Plane.
Add in APFA, .....then all I could say to centerPORK is.........W A T C H.......O U T ! ! : )

 

[Mach85ER]

AA management will prevail, plenty of pilots looking for work on furlough, currently working for regionals and with air force experience.

Josh

AA can train only 65-75 pilots a month. That also assumes not a single Check Airman (final evaluator for trainees in simulators and on actual line flying) doesn't resign from his CKA postition or refuse to cross a picket line, or turns down overtime work. That also assumes a relatively good trainee require little additional training.

You also assume qualified pilots would flock to AA given the opportunity. I don't have the exact figures, but only something like 1 or 6 or 10 furloughed pilots who were offered recall accepted it. Now there is a damming statistic.

You also assume many qualified pilots would come to AA during a period of labor strife, possibly considered as SCABS. You will get many pilots flocking, they just won't be considered as qualified to anyone with knowledge.

Essentially, your post like many in the past makes a statement that bears little resemblence to reality.

sorry

 

[WorldTraveler]

nope, and I won't say it is a bad move. If AA's employees can gain higher pay and AA can figure out how to live with the costs, then both sides win.

The deck is stacked against the APA based on history - but I commend those who are willing to shake up the status quo. The real question for the APA is if they get stuck long term w/ a worse deal than they would have had if they accepted the LBFO.

Because there is so much uncharted territory, I don't think we really know.

yes, instability is good news for anyone's competitors... but instability can pass while high costs ensure that a company can't compete - and last a whole lot longer.

AA and its people have no choice but to get it right this time.

if any major labor group walked out or engaged in a major slow down (assuming it wasn't stopped by a court) at ANY airline today, it would be tantamount to throwing the dirt on the open grave. There simply is no time to retrain replacements and keep the airline viable should a major labor event occur.

 

[737823]

AA can train only 65-75 pilots a month. That also assumes not a single Check Airman (final evaluator for trainees in simulators and on actual line flying) doesn't resign from his CKA postition or refuse to cross a picket line, or turns down overtime work. That also assumes a relatively good trainee require little additional training.

You also assume qualified pilots would flock to AA given the opportunity. I don't have the exact figures, but only something like 1 or 6 or 10 furloughed pilots who were offered recall accepted it. Now there is a damming statistic.

You also assume many qualified pilots would come to AA during a period of labor strife, possibly considered as SCABS. You will get many pilots flocking, they just won't be considered as qualified to anyone with knowledge.

Essentially, your post like many in the past makes a statement that bears little resemblence to reality.

sorry

As has been stated countless times on these forums, when your contact is abrogated you can't strike or engage in any job action. There maybe a mass exodus of pilots and other employees. Like it or not, there will always be someone willing to do the same work as you for less money under more flexible terms. What about the pilots and other employees at Comair? Countless other regional pilots dream would be to work under AA's term sheet. United still has pilots on furlough too. BA kept chugging along during the UNITE strike in summer 2010 with wet leased aircraft and skeleton crews AA could easily do the same.

Josh

 

[amt66]

nope, and I won't say it is a bad move. If AA's employees can gain higher pay and AA can figure out how to live with the costs, then both sides win.

The deck is stacked against the APA based on history - but I commend those who are willing to shake up the status quo. The real question for the APA is if they get stuck long term w/ a worse deal than they would have had if they accepted the LBFO.

Because there is so much uncharted territory, I don't think we really know.

yes, instability is good news for anyone's competitors... but instability can pass while high costs ensure that a company can't compete - and last a whole lot longer.

AA and its people have no choice but to get it right this time.

if any major labor group walked out or engaged in a major slow down (assuming it wasn't stopped by a court) at ANY airline today, it would be tantamount to throwing the dirt on the open grave. There simply is no time to retrain replacements and keep the airline viable should a major labor event occur.

How can the courts go against safety? As long as it is a legit write up not a single court can do a thing about it!

 

[bigjets]

AA can train only 65-75 pilots a month. That also assumes not a single Check Airman (final evaluator for trainees in simulators and on actual line flying) doesn't resign from his CKA postition or refuse to cross a picket line, or turns down overtime work. That also assumes a relatively good trainee require little additional training.

You also assume qualified pilots would flock to AA given the opportunity. I don't have the exact figures, but only something like 1 or 6 or 10 furloughed pilots who were offered recall accepted it. Now there is a damming statistic.

You also assume many qualified pilots would come to AA during a period of labor strife, possibly considered as SCABS. You will get many pilots flocking, they just won't be considered as qualified to anyone with knowledge.

Essentially, your post like many in the past makes a statement that bears little resemblence to reality.

sorry

That's assuming you go on strike without the company preparing itself. Also AA can outsource pilot training or ground the s80 or 757 fleet. And use those pilots that chose not to do a sickout. There is a lot of great theory there but to many ways around it. The big question how many pilot jobs are there in Asia to absorb AA pilots. And with such a huge pool of pilots will they still offer $300k to fly a A319 15 days a month? I think your best argument is market rates for a US Airline pilot which AA is falling way short of.

 

[Mach85ER]

You're dreaming bigjets. Ask Oneworld what they think about a nuclear war like you outline. I can assure you, there are some divisions in the group like all groups, but your idea would strengthen the resolve to 100% against Horton.

 

[tom barry]

As has been stated countless times on these forums, when your contact is abrogated you can't strike or engage in any job action. There maybe a mass exodus of pilots and other employees. Like it or not, there will always be someone willing to do the same work as you for less money under more flexible terms. What about the pilots and other employees at Comair? Countless other regional pilots dream would be to work under AA's term sheet. United still has pilots on furlough too. BA kept chugging along during the UNITE strike in summer 2010 with wet leased aircraft and skeleton crews AA could easily do the same.

Josh

"You can't strike, or engage in any job action"........But you CAN call in sick with Valid DRs. documentation.
You CAN refuse to fly an A/C thats in ANY "minute" violation of an FAA rule"
Bottom line, AMR finds itself going head-to-head with the FAA, N O T (directly)APA !
In case your were snoozing under a ROCK, AA's "Big Stuff" originates in JFK/MIA. (care to know the rejection percentage in THOSE APA bases) ?????????
Add in (I Hope) a disgruntled APFA group who shiit canned THIER LBO, and are then FORCED to work under abbrogated work rules, then my Non-Union friend, AA's got a MASSIVE tiger-by-the-tail, while UA and DL are "licking thier chops" !

It's called B A L L S/gonads/stones/BIG TESTICLES etc.
Something I'm guessing your NOT familiar with !

 

[737823]

"You can't strike, or engage in any job action"........But you CAN call in sick with Valid DRs. documentation.
You CAN refuse to fly an A/C thats in ANY "minute" violation of an FAA rule"
Bottom line, AMR finds itself going head-to-head with the FAA, N O T (directly)APA !
In case your were snoozing under a ROCK, AA's "Big Stuff" originates in JFK/MIA. (care to know the rejection percentage in THOSE APA bases) ?????????
Add in (I Hope) a disgruntled APFA group who shiit canned THIER LBO, and are then FORCED to work under abbrogated work rules, then my Non-Union friend, AA's got a MASSIVE tiger-by-the-tail, while UA and DL are "licking thier chops" !

It's called B A L L S/gonads/stones/BIG TESTICLES etc.
Something I'm guessing your NOT familiar with !

If that's how you guys feel I guess you will be the ones going down. It will have minimal impact on me, I can call my special reservations number at AA and get re-accommodated on another carrier for mechanical and even weather delays at no cost to me. I'm sure the concessions aren't pleasant but other employee groups at other carriers have given up much more than you guys have.

Josh

 

[Jacobin777]

I don't expect "mass strikes"...and I don't expect the pilots to do too much either. We heard the same thing during UA's BK.

That being said, I need to make a "plan B"...

 

[tom barry]

I don't expect "mass strikes"...and I don't expect the pilots to do too much either. We heard the same thing during UA's BK.

That being said, I need to make a "plan B"...

UAL Never had Radical pilot crew bases like AA's JFK/MIA/BOS !
Add in APFA, then the slogan by AMR will be......"Dallas, We have a PROBLEM" !

 

[Kev3188]

How can the courts go against safety? As long as it is a legit write up not a single court can do a thing about it!

Correct. Won't stop a company from trying, though...