APA Pilots Reject TA

[Mach85ER]

Jaco,

I'd bet that IAG was planning to buy a chunk of AA well before the Chapter 11 filing. Think about it. Which scenario is worse for the APA pilots. Having IAG buy a stake (majority if the repubs control) in AA, JetBlue and USAir after APA voted to approve the TA and getting stonewalled for the next decade while unlimited codesharing is being done by other Oneworld USA franchises, or being in a position where AA Management has to consider how pissed off the pilots will be while negotiating a new contract shortly. I'd rather be in the second situation.

Walsh's Delta comment is a joke. He knows the EU would never approve it even if it got by the DOT with Delta. AA is flying around +85% load jets and it isn't getting broken up. It simply is wild claim to divert the attention that Willie and Horton may be concocting a plan to "save American Airlines".

In case you haven't heard, Horton was in London when the APA vote was tabulated. My guess it was a loss of face for Horton.

 

[riceweevil]

The government would step in so quick stopping a strike, your heads will spin.

Wait, I thought Obama was a big supporter of Unions.
Just because a sitting president orders you back to work does not mean you have to comply with his Exective Order. The president cannot make the Pilots go to work tomorrow unless they choose to.The last thing Obama wants right before an election is a confrontation with the AA Piiots.The worse thing that could happen is the APA president is locked up and a fine is imposed on the APA.That would lead to a real ugly court fight which would make the C11 process look like child's play.

 

[TWU informer]

Wait, I thought Obama was a big supporter of Unions.
Just because a sitting president orders you back to work does not mean you have to comply with his Exective Order. The president cannot make the Pilots go to work tomorrow unless they choose to.The last thing Obama wants right before an election is a confrontation with the AA Piiots.The worse thing that could happen is the APA president is locked up and a fine is imposed on the APA.That would lead to a real ugly court fight which would make the C11 process look like child's play.

We do agree on some things. As long as this Government is going to take away our ability to have any influence on the law making, then we cannot continue to allow them to control us with those laws. If the APA Pilots take a stand, then every union man and woman in this industry should walk with them and defy those that now run the country by the money and for the money instead of for the people and by the people.

Shut down their transportation system in defiance using a civil protest manner and watch them change their tune real fast.

Not to worry though, James C Little and the AFL-CIO will be found hiding under some rock directing political sign making from their smart phones.

 

[Jacobin777]

Jaco,

I'd bet that IAG was planning to buy a chunk of AA well before the Chapter 11 filing. Think about it. Which scenario is worse for the APA pilots. Having IAG buy a stake (majority if the repubs control) in AA, JetBlue and USAir after APA voted to approve the TA and getting stonewalled for the next decade while unlimited codesharing is being done by other Oneworld USA franchises, or being in a position where AA Management has to consider how pissed off the pilots will be while negotiating a new contract shortly. I'd rather be in the second situation.

Walsh's Delta comment is a joke. He knows the EU would never approve it even if it got by the DOT with Delta. AA is flying around +85% load jets and it isn't getting broken up. It simply is wild claim to divert the attention that Willie and Horton may be concocting a plan to "save American Airlines".

In case you haven't heard, Horton was in London when the APA vote was tabulated. My guess it was a loss of face for Horton.

IAG, as an international entity can only purchase IIRC up to 25% of AA(IIRC). Of course that would have quite the influence. What Walsh might be referring to is if AA is "broken up" for whatever reason.

Again, I don't see that happening as the "final play" will indeed be Parkers.

From the various analyses I've read and from what I've concluded, I don't see the "grass being greener on the other side" with Doug Parker.

At the end of the day, barring a breakup of AA, I probably won't be affected all too much. Personally, it doesn't really bother me who runs AA, be it, Horton, Parker or someone else. Parker has already stated the carrier will remain AA with HDQ@DFW and will remain as a member of OneWorld. I don't really see AA's FF program changing all too much, nor do I expect to see a change in the new configurations of the various planes in the fleet.

Regards.

 

[bigjets]

I would tend to agree with you, except that I have my doubts about the validity of the voting.

And I have illness in my family and could not afford the increased cost of the medical so I voted no. So that is a weak arguement in itself and at minimum a self defeating reason to vote yes.

No we will go for Social Security Disablity and everyone else will now pay what should have been my resposibility. I might learn to like ObamaCare afterall. Everyone else can take financial responsility of my family medical situation.


Brother can you spare some change to pay a medical CoPay and Premium?

Enjoy

Obamacare is nothing more then regulations for healthcare, what will happen for you is that the insurance company you have will not be able to drop you or limit how much medical care you get because of cost. Good luck and I hope everything works out for your family.

 

[bigjets]

Wait, I thought Obama was a big supporter of Unions.
Just because a sitting president orders you back to work does not mean you have to comply with his Exective Order. The president cannot make the Pilots go to work tomorrow unless they choose to.The last thing Obama wants right before an election is a confrontation with the AA Piiots.The worse thing that could happen is the APA president is locked up and a fine is imposed on the APA.That would lead to a real ugly court fight which would make the C11 process look like child's play.

First of all no one is going on strike, we are in chapter 11, the President could give a crap about a labor dispute at a private company that is in bankruptcy. Obama or Romney might do a PEB and have the pilots go to work after the 30 day cooling off and after the APA declairs a strike, like Clinton did in 1996, but that is years away.

My prediction is this, Aug 15th the pilots contract gets abrogated then AA and APA negotiate for a year and after bankruptcy the APA will be the highest paid pilots (as they should be) but with the scope clause of the imposed contract.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Mach
Given that the Olympics just closed in London, Horton and a whole lot of other people have had plenty of reason to be in the UK. I am rather confident that a meeting or two took place on the sidelines - and possibly is the reason why IAG made its comment. How do you -or any of us - know whether DL or some investment companies working w/ DL didn't ask for some of the financial information that AA's creditors asked be spread around.

The ideal for AA's creditors is PROBABLY for AA to remain as a standalone entity and remain in oneworld. But it is still highly possible that there could be other options that could top both AA's standalone as well as a US merger proposal.

Ironically, the labor discord that some AA people want to argue should be used to obtain what they want - and I certainly encourage them to try every reasonable offer - could be EXACTLY what it takes for the creditors cmte- of which the pilots might not be a part if they are unable to reach a deal w/ AA - to decide to look at other options that will ensure the highest return, and that might well include selling off AA in parts to the highest bidder.

As a non-US citizen, IAG can not top the bids of a US entity or entities nor can they exert control above the limits which do not bind US entities.

It might also be worth noting that DAL's market cap tops IAG and LCC and is about equivalent to LCC and IAG combined. AMR will likely emerge with a larger market cap than IAG unless the Spanish economy and the resultant drag on IAG is resolved pretty quickly.

TWU,
AA employees may choose to walk away from their airline but you won't necessarily find support from employees at other airlines. You might well find that civil disobedience gives you (or AA employees) satisfaction in reaching your goals but the simple fact is that other airline employees are not as disenfranchised with their employers - and are not willing to walk away from their jobs.

As I have noted before, AA's restructuring is immensely compounded by the fact that they are restructuring when most of the rest of the industry is relatively stable and some of AA's competitors are giving pay raises. Add in that AA has as much cash as some of its competitiors and it is mighty hard for AA to convince its employees that AA needs to restructure.

Bigjets,
do you really think that AA is going to increase pilot pay rates by 25% which is what it would take for AA to pass DL's rates as of Jan 1, let alone the 30% that it would take to surpass WN's rates on the 738? And we haven't even talked about benefits and productivity.
Relaxing scope isn't going to give AA the scope it needs to generate the revenue necessary to cover the costs in all of those pay raises - unless a huge number of AA jobs are lost.

All three of your scenarios demonstrate what you WANT to happen but don't consider the strategic implications of what AA's creditors and business plan can support OR what AA's competitors will do. While US has been highly vocal about what it wants to do, others have not said near as much and have even more time to refine their plans will US talks about transactions that usually are done well behind closed doors.

 

[riceweevil]

First of all no one is going on strike, we are in chapter 11, the President could give a crap about a labor dispute at a private company that is in bankruptcy. Obama or Romney might do a PEB and have the pilots go to work after the 30 day cooling off and after the APA declairs a strike, like Clinton did in 1996, but that is years away.

My prediction is this, Aug 15th the pilots contract gets abrogated then AA and APA negotiate for a year and after bankruptcy the APA will be the highest paid pilots (as they should be) but with the scope clause of the imposed contract.

My prediction is the APA Contract WILL NOT be abrogated by Judge Lane on the 15th of Aug. AMR executives are even more arrogant than I thought if they do not petition the court for more time with the pilots. Even the Judge knows you cannot operate an airline without having the Pilots on board with management.AA management may talk tough but it is NOT in their best interest to remain in a prolonged dispute with the Pilots.

Keith Wilson, the newly named president of the Allied Pilots Association at American Airlines Inc. this weekend sent out a letter to members stressing that the union’s strategy remains focused on pursuing a merger with another airline so American can “compete on an equal footing with [the larger] Delta Air Lines and United Airlines.”
The APA board of directors named Wilson the day as former president David Bates resigned. His resignation came a day after pilots overwhelmingly rejected a tentative agreement with American, meaning those workers could face tougher terms if a bankruptcy judge on Wednesday lets the airline toss out its existing contract. The union represents 8,000 American pilots.
Here is Wilson’s full letter:
Fellow Pilots,
On Thursday, Aug. 9, your APA Board of Directors invited me to serve as APA President following Captain Bates’ resignation, and I accepted.
I am deeply honored for the opportunity to serve my fellow pilots at this critical juncture and want to thank the APA Board of Directors for their vote of confidence. Also, I would like to extend my sincere thanks to Captain Bates for his stewardship as APA President during the past 25 months.
Let me be clear—our union’s strategic focus remains unchanged. APA is committed to pursuing consolidation as the best path for ensuring a brighter future for American Airlines and the pilots we represent. Our goal is to create a new American Airlines that can compete on an equal footing with Delta Air Lines and United Airlines. By doing so, our pilots will be able to enjoy the secure, rewarding careers that we all want and deserve.
I believe that the APA Board of Directors’ decision to submit management’s “last, best, final offer” to a vote by the APA membership was entirely appropriate. You should get the last word. The path you have chosen—one that no other pilot union has ever taken—is a path that we will now travel together. And by together, I mean as a pilot group unified by a common purpose. To me, whether you voted “yes” or “no” is irrelevant. We all share the same goal.
A first officer I recently had the pleasure of flying to Tokyo with expressed his views on management’s “last, best, final offer” with a great deal of passion. We had a memorable discussion that I genuinely enjoyed. After the results of the tentative agreement vote were announced, I received an e-mail message from him, which he also shared with a number of other pilots with whom he regularly corresponds. His message went like this: “For those of you who voted ‘no,’ thank you. And for those of you who voted ‘yes,’ we are nothing without you in the times to come.”
I found his message to be both humbling and instructive and suspect that some of you had the same thought as I did—that the “punch line” at the end would be something else altogether. This pilot imparted a vital piece of wisdom. Unless we’re all in this together, we won’t be able to accomplish our objective, which is a contract that respects our sacrifices and appropriately compensates us as professional pilots—with a strong emphasis on “professional.”
Getting from here to there will require complete professionalism, which means performing our cockpit duties to the absolute best of our abilities. We must eliminate any potential for distraction by ensuring that our conduct is beyond reproach.
Professionalism also means maintaining a laser focus on ensuring that American Airlines becomes the kind of carrier that can properly sustain us for the balance of our careers. With widespread concern about the viability of AMR’s stand-alone plan, we must do all we can to ensure that the restructuring process includes proper consideration of strategic alternatives.
And it means commanding respect from our passengers, from management and from everyone else with a stake in the outcome of this restructuring process.
Fellow pilots, with your decisive vote, we have bid a trip that will undoubtedly test us all. What happens next? Every one of us will be involved in determining the answer to that question—just as it should be.
Thank you.
In unity,
Capt. Keith Wilson
APA president

 

[Super FLUF]

-If one hates the management & company so much, there are other options. I find it to be sad how a few thousand people are holding tens of thousands of other employees "hostage".

Please expand on this one. I want to hear how everyone is being held "hostage" by the big bad evil pilots.

Why are you worried anyways? Another poster said the government would step in and stop us from doing anything. Some others said that we wouldn't do anything at all.

Besides that, you implied that the company can just hire as they see fit and replace us all.

With all of the chips falling into place as you guys see it, why do you even worry about what we are doing? Sounds to me like management will just put us in our place and that will be the end of that.

"Happily ever after"

 

[tom barry]

Please expand on this one. I want to hear how everyone is being held "hostage" by the big bad evil pilots.

Why are you worried anyways? Another poster said the government would step in and stop us from doing anything. Some others said that we wouldn't do anything at all.

Besides that, you implied that the company can just hire as they see fit and replace us all.

With all of the chips falling into place as you guys see it, why do you even worry about what we are doing? Sounds to me like management will just put us in our place and that will be the end of that.

"Happily ever after"

 

[tom barry]

Please expand on this one. I want to hear how everyone is being held "hostage" by the big bad evil pilots.

Why are you worried anyways? Another poster said the government would step in and stop us from doing anything. Some others said that we wouldn't do anything at all.

Besides that, you implied that the company can just hire as they see fit and replace us all.

With all of the chips falling into place as you guys see it, why do you even worry about what we are doing? Sounds to me like management will just put us in our place and that will be the end of that.

"Happily ever after"

Super FLUF,
I'm ....ROTFLMAO at the Naivete of a lot of the posters on this particuliar thread.

These folks don't seem to have a F'n CLUE as to how Much POWER you guys/gals have !

But I DO !!

APA, you guys ROCK !!
And I PRAY that APFA "Rocks" with you.

Good Luck !
Make those M F.......T A K E it from you.
That is,...........IF Horton has the BALLS to do so.

 

[Mrs. McFly]

and the creditors will not allow US to buy AA w/o a negotiated business plan and evidence that US can run a combined AA-US operation using the contracts that will be known.
US could manage to acquire AA and not have to tell the creditors how it will make its merger with AA work, but only if they pay off the creditors at levels as good as AA could get in any other situation - and do so w/o involving stock in US.
US cannot possibly engage in an all cash or debt transaction to acquire AA and keep US' own credit rating. They will have to give the creditors US stock - and in so doing will subject themselves to being able to explain how they can make the combined AA/US work.

IOW, US can't acquire AA and pretend to figure out how he is going to make it all work years down the road.

The notion that AA's pilots would gain leverage to get a better deal w/ someone who hasn't fully demonstrated their ability to deliver a solid business plan including cuts where necessary and adjustments in pay to his own people - is beyond reality.

Been hearing that some didn't like the sold out aspect from both ends of the vote. Could explain the silence about US specifically lately. Having an agreement essentially dumped in pilots laps before getting one from AA, and then being told that "you need to pass this agreement from AA so we can merge and get the agreement from US that we didn't vote on nor know the nitty gritty details of" didn't sit so well.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/08/why-youre-not-hearing-much-lately-from-apa-about-us-airways.html/

There were lots of pilot middle fingers on display directed to a few different audiences with this vote.

 

[Blueweng48]

Wonder how many F/A's are changing their vote.Don't want to not have a ticket to the game.Thanx to all you yes voters.The TWU will be on the sidelines with the thumbs up their arses.

 

[Blueweng48]

And getting the ME TOO along with them
But we don't have to worry about abrogation

 

[WorldTraveler]

Been hearing that some didn't like the sold out aspect from both ends of the vote. Could explain the silence about US specifically lately. Having an agreement essentially dumped in pilots laps before merge and get the agreement from US that we didn't vote on nor know the nitty gritty details of" didn't sit so well.

http://aviationblog....s-airways.html/

There were lots of pilot middle fingers on display directed to a few different audiences with this vote.

Good negotiating strategy doesn’t involve laying all of your cards on the table… AA labor threw their support behind US even if it was only an effort to “show the finger to AA mgmt”. But since US is the only airline that has made an offer public, it isn’t at all known that US is the best option for AA pilots and I am sure there are plenty of AA pilots – and other employees – who were happy to use the US overtures to their advantage – but weren’t about ready to sign on the dotted line. Perhaps those voices are beginning to grow stronger.

It isn’t a coincidence that DL settled a labor agreement very quickly right as AA pilots are looking at all of the options. UA was quick to trot out its AIP w/ its pilots although many are wanting to see real details; UA is just as interested as DL in seeing that AA not take steps that would allow them to regain some of their competitive strength that has been lost. Both deals add alot of cost to labor agreements that AA or US would have to make in order to bring pilots - the most vocal group so far - up to industry standard levels which is where AA pilots want to be.

It is also possible that AA’s most recent statements about perhaps deciding about a merger partner in a couple weeks are due in part because other parties besides US, perhaps including DL, are more aggressively talking w/ AA’s creditors – and perhaps some of AA’s labor groups. BA could see AA ripped out of oneworld and is pressuring AA to merge w/ US if necessary rather than allow someone else to threaten AA/BA in LHR.
Given that about 12% (maybe more) of IAG is held by one or more Spanish banks that have said they need to get rid of that stock in order for Spain to obtain EU financial aid, IAG is in a difficult position in trying to prevent part of itself from falling into hostile hands (could be AF/KL or DL) while also trying to protect AA. Factor in that JL is about ready to be relisted and there is a lot of equity involving oneworld airlines that is in play – and any part of that falling in the wrong hands could threaten oneworld.

In the US, DOT data shows that B6, NK, and VX are making significant dents in AA – and UA’s – revenues and market shares at ORD and DFW. In both cities, network carriers are holding their shares relatively constant but B6 and VX are both gaining up to 20% market share in the markets where they directly compete and average fares in the markets where they compete with AA and UA are falling. NK is not generating the same level of market share but average fares in those markets are still falling and NK, despite having limited schedules, is attracting passengers. The creditors know that AA has to address the encroachment of low fare carriers in its markets; DFW and ORD have had relatively little low fare activity but that is changing. AA and US both have not done well in limiting the growth of low cost carriers in their markets over the past 10 years – with US’ success in PHL coming after years of losses to LFCs. Knocking a couple hundred millions of revenue off of AA or the combined AA/US’ plan to account for growing LFC presence makes AA and/or Parker’s job more difficult.

DL could be attempting to do a couple things by meddling in AA’s BK – force the price higher for US, force AA to merge prematurely (before BK has played out) resulting in higher costs and more difficulties competing once out of BK, create dissatisfaction among AA stakeholders who might have doubts whether there aren’t better options available, OR actually purchase parts of AA as an asset sale or jointly w/ another partly.

IN an asset sale, it is far less necessary – if at all necessary – for AA’s costs to be reduced to levels necessary to compete since the buyer of the assets manages those assets within their own business plan. Once again, AA's high cash levels - most of which is secured by aircraft which hold their value - make it alot less necessary to hold out for a restructuring if an acquisition - even in pieces - yields a higher return.

ALK's market cap is 1 1/2 X LCC's despite having a fraction of the revenues while DL's is 4.5X that of LCCs.

AA might have exclusivity to propose a plan but the creditors are not going to agree to any plan that doesn’t provide them the best return.

Finally, word is that Delta’s ALPA unit is meeting this week and one of the topics is AMR. Some DL pilots were miffed that DALPA endorsed the latest contract while saying that there were strategic reasons why DL needed to have a contract soon and which DALPA leadership could not speak about.
DL and NW ALPA agreed to a merger integration plan before DL announced the merger.
The two network airlines whose pilots are not represented by ALPA in the US are AA and ___, the airline whose pilots recently walked away from ALPA.

Food for thought.