Another merger committee's breakdown of the case.

[Callsign_Cactus]

And your point is? I think you deserve LOA 93 for the rest of your career - go for it dude!!! Although, don't be surprised if the East operation shrinks during that decade. In fact, you may not have to worry too much about 'the list' and doing all the work "burning down the house." If the CIC grievance scheduled for arbitration is favorable to IAM you will quickly see the dismantling (fire sale) of the east operation, at least a good chunk of it anyway. Look for yourself what's at stake and read what Parker has to say about it. I know it's tough, and sometimes the truth hurts, but educate yourself.


Good luck!

Prechilill,

The US Airways pilots will never accept the Nicolau Award. The Award may stand, but the US Airways pilots have the ability to prevent it from being implemented for about a decade and there is nothing the America West pilots can do about it.

Furthermore, I guarantee you this. I will do everything in my power to right the wrongs of the Nicolau Award until I die and the ALPA PHL and PIT Reps. and I are aligned in this fight.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Bob Loblaw]

When does national hear the case?

National - the executive council - hears "the case" next Monday. However they will not do anything other than accept and defend the ruling. That is ALPA policy. And that is what ALPA national has been saying this last week in all of it's official and unofficial statements. Whoever wants to ride a bus to Herndon feel free but it won't do anything to overturn the policy that the Executive Council has pledged to defend. Has anyone here even listened to or actually read the statements of the ALPA president of the last 5 days?

Both sides on this board are arguing the wrong merits. It seems all the debate comes down to who was in better financial condition. That has nothing to do with the argument or the case. It doesn't matter what AAA's financial condition was and it does not matter what HP's financial condition was in the matter of combining the seniority lists. I get sick of the HP pilots saying "we saved AAA," and I get sick of hearing the AAA pilots saying they brought so much more to the table. While there may be some truth to each side's saying that it has nothing to do with the arbitration and the ground rules of the arbitrator's decision.

The arguments all are making here are completely and totally immaterial to how this decision will play out.

HP pilots - quit waving your penis. It really is disgusting. AAA pilots - stop with the empty threats that all know you will not carry through with. Rhetoric is fine but it is beginning to sound really stupid. On both sides.

Look at past history regarding mergers, arbitrator's decisions, court challenges, and ALPA policy. I don't think anyone here can say with any honesty and integrity that the ruling is going to change. Wish that it would won't make it so. The AAA pilots have historically dealt with weak management that could be intimidated. I'm afraid a new day is dawning and as much as you like to denigrate Doug Parker he has proven more than a match for the average union pilot of which AAA is average and HP is well below average.

All of the rolling thunder, burn the house down, and employee infighting only serves to obfuscate the real problem that employees and brother unions can not, will not and do not ever get their heads out of their own holes and fight the greater war. We love battles but we hate wars. Doug Parker knows this and uses it to his advantage. As long as union leaders pander to their membership and don't have the courage to lead we will continue to see in this operation what we see on these boards. Stupidity. And it isn't the Tempe management screwing everything up. Add to the list of know -it-alls the AAA MEC and the AWA MEC. The unions are doing just as much, if not more, to screw this operation out of existence. Doug Parker, Jack Stephan, John McIlvenna - they are all the same.


Bob - a proud union pilot who sees his union fighting over a rubber band coming out of a dog's A - hole.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Monday, May 21. I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a bold prediction. ALPA International will politely tell the East MEC to pickup their Barney lunch pails, crayons, scissors, glue sticks, and backpacks, and report directly to the principal’s office.

Seriously though, I really feel bad for the professional east pilots that have to put up with such childish and destructive behavior. ALPA Int. will fully support the award and this hearing is nothing more than an appeaser for the East MEC in their quest to save face somehow, and to deflect attention away from their own failures. The real sad part is it once again sets the stage for another huge let down for the east pilots.

When does national hear the case?

 

[CactusFlyr]

i must admit I think the nwa analysis was very well written and if directionaly correct. I find it hard to see how this was reasonably fair ruling since the group could not come to terms.

It is a simple matter of East US feeling of entitlement, and their mismanagement of realistic expectations.

National - the executive council - hears "the case" next Monday. However they will not do anything other than accept and defend the ruling. That is ALPA policy. And that is what ALPA national has been saying this last week in all of it's official and unofficial statements. Whoever wants to ride a bus to Herndon feel free but it won't do anything to overturn the policy that the Executive Council has pledged to defend. Has anyone here even listened to or actually read the statements of the ALPA president of the last 5 days?

Both sides on this board are arguing the wrong merits. It seems all the debate comes down to who was in better financial condition. That has nothing to do with the argument or the case. It doesn't matter what AAA's financial condition was and it does not matter what HP's financial condition was in the matter of combining the seniority lists. I get sick of the HP pilots saying "we saved AAA," and I get sick of hearing the AAA pilots saying they brought so much more to the table. While there may be some truth to each side's saying that it has nothing to do with the arbitration and the ground rules of the arbitrator's decision.

The arguments all are making here are completely and totally immaterial to how this decision will play out.

HP pilots - quit waving your penis. It really is disgusting. AAA pilots - stop with the empty threats that all know you will not carry through with. Rhetoric is fine but it is beginning to sound really stupid. On both sides.

Look at past history regarding mergers, arbitrator's decisions, court challenges, and ALPA policy. I don't think anyone here can say with any honesty and integrity that the ruling is going to change. Wish that it would won't make it so. The AAA pilots have historically dealt with weak management that could be intimidated. I'm afraid a new day is dawning and as much as you like to denigrate Doug Parker he has proven more than a match for the average union pilot of which AAA is average and HP is well below average.

All of the rolling thunder, burn the house down, and employee infighting only serves to obfuscate the real problem that employees and brother unions can not, will not and do not ever get their heads out of their own holes and fight the greater war. We love battles but we hate wars. Doug Parker knows this and uses it to his advantage. As long as union leaders pander to their membership and don't have the courage to lead we will continue to see in this operation what we see on these boards. Stupidity. And it isn't the Tempe management screwing everything up. Add to the list of know -it-alls the AAA MEC and the AWA MEC. The unions are doing just as much, if not more, to screw this operation out of existence. Doug Parker, Jack Stephan, John McIlvenna - they are all the same.
Bob - a proud union pilot who sees his union fighting over a rubber band coming out of a dog's A - hole.

You are wrong, that is precisely what "career expectations" are about.

 

[supercruiser]

It is a simple matter of East US feeling of entitlement, and their mismanagement of realistic expectations.
You are wrong, that is precisely what "career expectations" are about.

Here's the rub. While you can certainly argue where you should be on the combined list, what irks a huge amount of the E. pilots is that depending on where you ended up on the list, the W. pilots are going to have the opportunity to capture some, most, or all of the E. pilots future attrition.

Yes the E. pilots did and still do feel "entitled" to their own attrition, and were counting on it in some way shape or form, the junior ones in particular. Doesn't seem unrealistic at all then or now. The W. pilots seem to acknowledge this, but simply say "well you went to arbitration, and have to live with the results anyway."

I thought that Nicolau would come up with some complicated scheme to allow the E. pilots attrition to go to the E. pilots, duh. Not only did he not come up with a complicated scheme or some arcane condition or restriction, he came up with no scheme at all, so the W. pilots are now percieved as receiving a windfall at the E. pilot's expense. Having been through 4 mergers and 3 arbitrations for many of the E. pilots, this was still unexpected.

I was disappointed in the very simplistic approach to merging two very different lists. Seems obvious that's why the award was published almost a month ahead of time. It looks like he put it together over a weekend. It will be interesting to see what ALPA National can or will do next week, as even if they agree with the E. pilot's position, it's not clear whether they can legally do anything at all. At any rate we'll see in a few more days. I think dark days are ahead if ALPA National tells the E. pilots to take a hike.

 

[BoeingBoy]

the W. pilots are going to have the opportunity to capture some, most, or all of the E. pilots future attrition.

So let's look at what the East pilots wanted.....

Since the 757 is the West's biggest equipment, let's look at the case of West pilot X (a 737/A320 Captain) who is 1 number below the most junior West 757 Captain on the day before a DOH list went into effect. In other words, the attrition of 1 West pilot senior to pilot X may have allowed pilot X to get a 757 Captain bid.

Under a DOH award that the East pilots wanted, these people could get all 757 Captain bids before pilot X:

Every East 737/A320 Captain, and

Every East E190 Captain, and

Every East A330 F/O, and

Every East 757/767 F/O, and

Every East 737/A320 F/O, and

A large percentage of the furloughees.

So who wanted to capture all the attrition?

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

It will be interesting to see what ALPA National can or will do next week, as even if they agree with the E. pilot's position, it's not clear whether they can legally do anything at all. At any rate we'll see in a few more days. I think dark days are ahead if ALPA National tells the E. pilots to take a hike.

Frankly they will probably do a bunch of "Yes, nod, we hear you loud and clear. There are some serious points you raise. We are taking this under advisement. Blah, blah, blah.

What will be real telling is how many pilots show up at the meeting.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

So let's look at what the East pilots wanted.....

Since the 757 is the West's biggest equipment, let's look at the case of West pilot X (a 737/A320 Captain) who is 1 number below the most junior West 757 Captain on the day before a DOH list went into effect. In other words, the attrition of 1 West pilot senior to pilot X may have allowed pilot X to get a 757 Captain bid.

Under a DOH award that the East pilots wanted, these people could get all 757 Captain bids before pilot X:

Every East 737/A320 Captain, and

Every East E190 Captain, and

Every East A330 F/O, and

Every East 757/767 F/O, and

Every East 737/A320 F/O, and

A large percentage of the furloughees.

So who wanted to capture all the attrition?

Jim

Whats hers is hers, and whats his is hers. Somehow what Jim justed pointed out has all but been lost in the hubub. Maybe, just maybe Nicolau is not the senile old man who needs glasses that some have made him out to be.

Funny, the fact that Nicolau saw through that doesn't make into all these staged media events.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'll add this about the attrition.....

Since a significant percentage of East attrition occurs among the F/O and furloughed ranks, the only ones getting the benefit of the all East attrition are those at the bottom - the furloughed. Separate ops "as far as the eye can see" actually hurts them - they get the benefit of only East attrition instead of all East and West attrition.

So once again the most junior are being used as cannon fodder by the senior, in an attempt to improve the advancement of those that already have theirs.

Jim

 

[a319driver]

Funny if you were not in dire straights why was doogie needing a loan that the banks said yes too then said no to and then went to the ATSB to get money?

Don't let the facts get in your way.

What the atcheedoublehockeysticks, does the time of the merger (2005) have to do with the ATSB loans post 9/11(2001)??

 

[a319driver]

You know this post just shows how truly out of touch with reality you are... and by the way it is "inflame" not inflam - - - ok - LOL - this just makes me laugh, but i will say it anyway... DP cannot just "say" oh our airline is in this condition; just to get something approved. AWA is a publicly traded company and the financial well being of this airline was in fact in trouble, and you would have filed for BK for the SECOND time and you probably would have been liquidated because most of your routes are very low yielding routes and people would just assume see you go away as bother with it, or someone would have purchased you... You should Thank the USAir guys - b/c you were in fact trying to run legacy style on Low Cost routes and it would never have cut it in the long run... Hopefully someday your little eyes pop open and "sense" has B*tch slapped you!!! If not you will live miserably for the rest of your career - fighting it, and living in denial... Quite sad and quite frankly it is people like yourself that brings the morale down, by your ridiculous thoughts that are spoken and typed, keep it up and you folks will drive yourself straight to BK3 and then we can hash it out all over again... only this time - you will be bowing at the feet of the airline that scoops your plane out of the desert - if they do.....

Hey Douche the Beauty....Since AAA would have liquidated exactly one day after the merger announcement (had it not happened, your point is quite moot. The removal of AAA seats from the system would have been a boon to all the remaining characters in the play. But I bet our hiring committee would have considered you for employment in our ensuing expansion. (aka our career expectations) Oh yeah, WTF exactly did the "USAir guys" (as noted above) do that AWA pilots should thank them for???

 

[AWA320]

You know this post just shows how truly out of touch with reality you are... and by the way it is "inflame" not inflam - - - ok - LOL - this just makes me laugh, but i will say it anyway... DP cannot just "say" oh our airline is in this condition; just to get something approved. AWA is a publicly traded company and the financial well being of this airline was in fact in trouble, and you would have filed for BK for the SECOND time and you probably would have been liquidated because most of your routes are very low yielding routes and people would just assume see you go away as bother with it, or someone would have purchased you... You should Thank the USAir guys - b/c you were in fact trying to run legacy style on Low Cost routes and it would never have cut it in the long run... Hopefully someday your little eyes pop open and "sense" has B*tch slapped you!!! If not you will live miserably for the rest of your career - fighting it, and living in denial... Quite sad and quite frankly it is people like yourself that brings the morale down, by your ridiculous thoughts that are spoken and typed, keep it up and you folks will drive yourself straight to BK3 and then we can hash it out all over again... only this time - you will be bowing at the feet of the airline that scoops your plane out of the desert - if they do.....

What??? This company had been in business for 24yrs so you post made zero sense. Emotional is what describes what you wrote. In any event we are way past. Unfortunatly you know nothing of what you speak and nothing of me personally to make such claims. I do and have done more for my union then you have the ability to imagine so check yourself!!!

I/ we were quite happy without the dead weight of your miserable operation in the east. Not to worry though our management team that replaced those failures of yours will whip you right into shape.

BTW, learn something about the business, finances and the SEC before you make another stupid statement.

National - the executive council - hears "the case" next Monday. However they will not do anything other than accept and defend the ruling. That is ALPA policy. And that is what ALPA national has been saying this last week in all of it's official and unofficial statements. Whoever wants to ride a bus to Herndon feel free but it won't do anything to overturn the policy that the Executive Council has pledged to defend. Has anyone here even listened to or actually read the statements of the ALPA president of the last 5 days?

Both sides on this board are arguing the wrong merits. It seems all the debate comes down to who was in better financial condition. That has nothing to do with the argument or the case. It doesn't matter what AAA's financial condition was and it does not matter what HP's financial condition was in the matter of combining the seniority lists. I get sick of the HP pilots saying "we saved AAA," and I get sick of hearing the AAA pilots saying they brought so much more to the table. While there may be some truth to each side's saying that it has nothing to do with the arbitration and the ground rules of the arbitrator's decision.

The arguments all are making here are completely and totally immaterial to how this decision will play out.

HP pilots - quit waving your penis. It really is disgusting. AAA pilots - stop with the empty threats that all know you will not carry through with. Rhetoric is fine but it is beginning to sound really stupid. On both sides.

Look at past history regarding mergers, arbitrator's decisions, court challenges, and ALPA policy. I don't think anyone here can say with any honesty and integrity that the ruling is going to change. Wish that it would won't make it so. The AAA pilots have historically dealt with weak management that could be intimidated. I'm afraid a new day is dawning and as much as you like to denigrate Doug Parker he has proven more than a match for the average union pilot of which AAA is average and HP is well below average.

All of the rolling thunder, burn the house down, and employee infighting only serves to obfuscate the real problem that employees and brother unions can not, will not and do not ever get their heads out of their own holes and fight the greater war. We love battles but we hate wars. Doug Parker knows this and uses it to his advantage. As long as union leaders pander to their membership and don't have the courage to lead we will continue to see in this operation what we see on these boards. Stupidity. And it isn't the Tempe management screwing everything up. Add to the list of know -it-alls the AAA MEC and the AWA MEC. The unions are doing just as much, if not more, to screw this operation out of existence. Doug Parker, Jack Stephan, John McIlvenna - they are all the same.
Bob - a proud union pilot who sees his union fighting over a rubber band coming out of a dog's A - hole.

WOW!!! Now that was an eye opening statement. Outstanding...

 

[ilg30/7]

I/ we were quite happy without the dead weight of your miserable operation in the east. Not to worry though our management team that replaced those failures of yours will whip you right into shape.

This is by far the funniest thing I have ever read on this board. 2+ years after the merger, I am still waiting for the "dead weight" to be "whipped into shape".

As I recall, that "dead weight" produced nearly all of the 2006 profit. As far as it being "whipped into shape", does it seem like management decisions since the merger have improved it, or caused it to degrade?

 

[supercruiser]

Whats hers is hers, and whats his is hers. Somehow what Jim justed pointed out has all but been lost in the hubub. Maybe, just maybe Nicolau is not the senile old man who needs glasses that some have made him out to be.

Doesn't really matter what was proposed in arbitration, as the arbitrator didn't have to pick one side or the other like in baseball arbitration. The W. proposal didn't give any consideration of E. pilots attrition in their proposal, in any case, and had the E. pilots in lower relative postitions than what was already awarded. You could argue that both sides over reached to some extent with their proposals, I'd say par for the course in the previous arbitrations I've been in.

The fact remains that depending on where you ended up, the younger W. pilots still get the opportunity to capture some, most, or almost all of the older E. pilots attrition, still a windfall for them, one that was supposed to be avoided, not minimized, or maximized in the E. pilots case. Still puzzles me that Nicolau chose to essentially ignore that whole aspect, one that was critical for the E. pilots obviously.

 

[A320 Driver]

I think the ALPA executive board will blow a lot hot air with absolutly no substance. They will do what politicians do...play politics. They will play to both sides in an attempt to either remove themselves from the disagreement, or say a lot of nothing with promises to say more nothings later. That being said, I am convinced, based on my conversations with other East pilots, that as soon as this "nothing" happens, and the reality sets in, that a movement will begin to remove ALPA from the East side ILO another national union, or one in-house. I've never seen such a runaway train as we are looking at here. I have no idea what the consequences of such a move are, but it doesn't seem to matter to those I've spoken with.

Does anyone know what happens next after you pursue a decertification process?

Keeping my head down,

A320 Driver :huh: