Another merger committee's breakdown of the case.

[AWA320]

I have raised many questions over the last few days and no one, and I mean NO ONE cares how much it costs. This whole thing is the product of nearly two decades of abuse at the hands of inept management. To most I've spoken with, it's just the last straw, that's it, nothing to lose. Lost wages, lost retirement, lost benefits and almost constant contract abuse have brought this group to a point I've never witnessed. You West guys didn't bring this on, but unfortunantly, you will now bear the brunt of it.

Trust me, embarrassement is the LAST thing on anyone's mind over here.

A320 Driver :unsure:

Yeah!! until the bill comes then everyone is starts looking the other direction like they just farted in church!! So basically the answer to my question is no they haven't!! Please do some very basic research into this subject before you go off on one of your emotionally charged tyraids. One million minimum to even start thinking about it.

 

[TechBoy]

I see it that once again, the East will be giving to the west, just to get them to "par" with the current east contracts...as bad as they are.

I think that you have it backwards. The West pilots have HIGHER rates than the East pilots.

Do I detect a note of snobbery in your views of West? I know that you're out of the business, but management loves nothing more than the workers fighting among themselves over who is "better."

What I don't understand is the total blindness among the pro-East folks as to the moral bankruptcy of the East pilots. They had proposed to the arbitrator a result that would have totally screwed over the West pilots. How could they possibly be surprised that the arbitrator took a different route? Am I missing something here? Or does the difficult past make it OK to screw anybody that is in your way?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

IMO, the West union leadership, along with their members have negotiated poorly and kept their expectation low and the "bar" low. I see it as the West labor now wanting to capitilize and take a 'win-fall' if you will, on the decades of long negotiatons by the East unions to secure good livable agreements by which the members of the East bought and paid for.

PBull,

Yes, AWA contracts have been industry laggards. But don't forget that AWA has never negotiated a contract - until now - without severe handicaps. We have had two contracts. The first one was negotiated in bankruptcy and the second (current) was negotiatied with the restrictions of the ATSB loan guarantees which had federal limits on the maximum permissable increases.

Turnover of pilots has never been an issue and has never presented a problem for the company.

What the east bought and paid for with their previous lucrative and well negotiated contracts has all been given back. What we are both fighting for now is a return to a standard ALPA contract. We are both a long ways away from regaining the low ground.

Both groups brought something to the table and profit sharing sure isn't much of a plum. In 20 years working in this industry my total profit sharing checks amount to $2,100. My salary has never increased in relative terms since 1995. I'm looking at a possible 2% raise out of this next contract and maybe a 4% total compensation increase over the life of the next contract.

We are all losing out here and for one side or the other to claim more hardship is unsportsman like. I realize what the easties' heartburn is. I think the east understands a little what the westies' heartburn is.

Revising the pilot list won't solve or salve many of our pains. Touching the list will be the complete undoing of ALPA in that doing so will dissolve any trust of the total membership in the basic underpinnings of the union itself.

A process was proposed and accepted and in some instances codified in the transition agreement accepted by both sides. It set out clear policies each would follow with regard to integrating the two airlines. The seniority integration was one part of that agreement. If that can be changed after the fact then almost all of it can be changed at any point in the future. If our word is not good then there is no business to conduct, no airline to battle with, no gains to be made and no future for any of us. I've seen too many airlines fall apart because the employees got mad at each other and fought with each other. I don't want to see it happen here.

Bob

 

[A320 Driver]

Yeah!! until the bill comes then everyone is starts looking the other direction like they just farted in church!! So basically the answer to my question is no they haven't!! Please do some very basic research into this subject before you go off on one of your emotionally charged tyraids. One million minimum to even start thinking about it.

One of my emotionally charged tyraids????

I was simply stating that I have never in my career seen so many people advocating the end of ALPA on this property. Never thought I would see the day. Now, as for the million bucks, what would you say ALPA's take is per month amoung the East pilot group? Everyone is sending in requests to stop dues checkoff. By my estimate, you're talking 1/2 to 3/4 million PER MONTH.

I don't think a million bucks will be an issue.

BTW, I NEVER advocated a DOH integration. I disagreed PUBLICLY with other East pilots on the issue. I do see some inequities in the award, but you probably have a few yourself.

Thanks for the attack...nothing but love for ya.

A320 Driver B)

 

[AWA320]

One of my emotionally charged tyraids????

I was simply stating that I have never in my career seen so many people advocating the end of ALPA on this property. Never thought I would see the day. Now, as for the million bucks, what would you say ALPA's take is per month amoung the East pilot group? Everyone is sending in requests to stop dues checkoff. By my estimate, you're talking 1/2 to 3/4 million PER MONTH.

I don't think a million bucks will be an issue.

BTW, I NEVER advocated a DOH integration. I disagreed PUBLICLY with other East pilots on the issue. I do see some inequities in the award, but you probably have a few yourself.

Thanks for the attack...nothing but love for ya.

A320 Driver B)

Attack?? That really wasn't and attack at all. Keep in mind that many on the east property will never vote to remove ALPA. Why is everyone so quick to remove the union anyway? Removal of the union will not change the award one bit. This is the problem with having third parties in your business. With another merger in our not so distand future, now is simply not the time for union merry go round. Doug Parker has to be loving this!! I bet he's sitting in his office laughing saying "we can always count on the pilots when management needs to justify their bonus packages. I bet we will save them millions in unrealized salary for our brothers and sisters. Pilots!! we are always our own worst enemy...

Ahh no insults in here A320

 

[awausairtech]

HP started in 1983 - how did their contracts compare to other 80's startups?

HP's BK in 1993('92?) - Yes, we all know how easy it is to get big increases in pay/benefits when the company is in BK don't we.

Post 9-11-2001 - Yes, an excellent period to be negotiating increases in pay/benefits. I remember that big raise I got.

In short, HP employees haven't had much opportunity to negotiate major increases in their initial contracts. Expecting them to achieve in a little over 20 years, with the background of the above factors, what US employees did in over 30 years of a regulated environment and another 23 years before 911, may be a "little" on the optimistic side.
Jim

Common Sense , WELL SAID! Someone pick me up off the floor I cant believe my eyes. There just might be hope yet. As it was said in a earlier post Kicking the dog! East has gave up more THAN the West Because the west has been kicked by the same company that is kicking both East and West NOW... WE are one airline now, Both Sides have been Beaten and Kicked to the ground by BK's and Company's so IMPO it's time to put this E/W BS to bed and start acting as one group of employee's MX/RAMP/FLIGHT CREWS etc, Have a Nice Day to all the employee's.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

Unfortunately BB is recently retired- to his credit. It would seem he is free to "tell it like it is". Common sense and few capital letters seem to be his trade marks.

 

[Junebug172]

I have raised many questions over the last few days and no one, and I mean NO ONE cares how much it costs. This whole thing is the product of nearly two decades of abuse at the hands of inept management. To most I've spoken with, it's just the last straw, that's it, nothing to lose. Lost wages, lost retirement, lost benefits and almost constant contract abuse have brought this group to a point I've never witnessed. You West guys didn't bring this on, but unfortunantly, you will now bear the brunt of it.

Ya know, if that's the kind of talk you would have put up on this board in the first place, you'd have a whole different exchange between east and west here.