An Open Letter from Capt. Prater to all AAA and AWA Pilots

[P51Pilot]

That's a good point! If only 50 east guys will be moving to PHX and only 50 guys in the west will be going east, you mean to tell me we are holding the entire pilot group hostage for the benefit of 100 guys? This is why I think there can be a solution to the Nic list in conjuction with a joint contract. Fences, captain ratios, controlled domicile movement.

Anything in a contract is only valid until the next CH 11, or merger. Labor contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on as evidenced by the 5 years following 9/11 so tieing any solution to one with the Nicalou award still valid would be foolish for East pilots. It is evident they realize this and why there will be no joint contract. Many who could rightfully predict Captain pay based on attrition will likely never see it, and because of this award another merger would only slot them further down a list with no chance at the left seat. 100% of Captain pay, holding a line, moving up aircraft is better than a even a 20% raise on top of $78,000 dollar FO pay. Let's face it, $125,000 dollars trumps $96,000 dollars any day of the week as bad as LOA 93 is, why any body with 20 years vested would vote away a $40,000 dollar raise from upgrade to get another $10,000 to $15,000 as copilot, likely for the rest of their career would have to have hole in their head. Another merger would likely affect the status of current Captains, as consolidation means reduction in force. Another serious downturn will happen at some point as they always do.

Any fences would have to be 25 years to protect the most junior East pilots, because if fences are good for some then they are for all and the most junior east pilot should see the left seat of an A330 before "Save Dave" ever does. The company would seek to nullify anything it felt cumbersome at the first possible opportunity, likely the next downturn or another trip through CH 11. Promises and earned benefits mean nothing as evidenced by the termination of earned pensions.

Unfortunately seniority is everything to a pilot and a lack of leadership by ALPA and an adherence to seniority in terms of longevity just as most other national unions due, has created a mess that is unsolvable.

People can bicker back and forth here as much as they want and no ones mind is being changed. People ought to treat it for what it is as a job, and the younger guys from both East and West ought to start bailing for ABX, FedEX, or UPS at the first opportunity while they have years to capitalize on and use this as the job had while seeking the better job.

Things will likely remain separate and hostile, and wages will be held back and when US Airways finds another dance partner, if you remain hope you are flying for the side that has value and someone wants.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I'm afraid you lose then. The only option for east is to include protections in conjunction with a joint contract. The Nicolau list will never change because the law says it won't. It will likely take years of financial misery for east to finally figure it out. The seniority of each pilot was preserved on the Nic list and should be used as a model for future mergers if no National seniority list is started. Your bottom guy on the list is no more deserving than the bottom guy on our list - this is a new Company and that's the reality. You guys confuse your longevity with your seniority rights. You actually kept both. The bottom guy is still on the bottom, but he we still be paid more than his counterpart because he retains his longevity, even with Nic. You arguments are nothing more than emotional rhetoric.

Anything in a contract is only valid until the next CH 11, or merger. Labor contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on as evidenced by the 5 years following 9/11 so tieing any solution to one with the Nicalou award still valid would be foolish for East pilots. It is evident they realize this and why there will be no joint contract. Many who could rightfully predict Captain pay based on attrition will likely never see it, and because of this award another merger would only slot them further down a list with no chance at the left seat. 100% of Captain pay, holding a line, moving up aircraft is better than a even a 20% raise on top of $78,000 dollar FO pay. Let's face it, $125,000 dollars trumps $96,000 dollars any day of the week as bad as LOA 93 is, why any body with 20 years vested would vote away a $40,000 dollar raise from upgrade to get another $10,000 to $15,000 as copilot, likely for the rest of their career would have to have hole in their head. Another merger would likely affect the status of current Captains, as consolidation means reduction in force. Another serious downturn will happen at some point as they always do.

Any fences would have to be 25 years to protect the most junior East pilots, because if fences are good for some then they are for all and the most junior east pilot should see the left seat of an A330 before "Save Dave" ever does. The company would seek to nullify anything it felt cumbersome at the first possible opportunity, likely the next downturn or another trip through CH 11. Promises and earned benefits mean nothing as evidenced by the termination of earned pensions.

Unfortunately seniority is everything to a pilot and a lack of leadership by ALPA and an adherence to seniority in terms of longevity just as most other national unions due, has created a mess that is unsolvable.

People can bicker back and forth here as much as they want and no ones mind is being changed. People ought to treat it for what it is as a job, and the younger guys from both East and West ought to start bailing for ABX, FedEX, or UPS at the first opportunity while they have years to capitalize on and use this as the job had while seeking the better job.

Things will likely remain separate and hostile, and wages will be held back and when US Airways finds another dance partner, if you remain hope you are flying for the side that has value and someone wants.

 

[EastUS]

My benevolence for the east is wearing thin. :angry:
I guess y

Wow...now that's a truly terrifying thought

 

[Phoenix]

I'm going to vent here a little Phoenix, nothing personal and it's really not targeting you - just need to speak my mind.

No, we are at war because the east did not get their way in arbitration and are now wanting a redux - Not gonna happen, ever. DOH seniority is not part of ALPA merger policy - denial or wishful thinking will get you nowhere. I can stand right next to you, look you square in the eye, and tell you that west pilots were preparing for a staple/hose job because it went to ARBITRATION - you just never know what will happen. What could we have done then? NOTHING! Oh we might have cried fouled and stomped our feet loudly proclaiming the travesty of it all, but we would have accepted the inevitable and moved on. On the contrary, the east was expecting DOH - a warped sense of reality if you ask me- and SHOCKED they did not get it. Your DOH seniority is not righteous; it carries the same privileges on the AWA list of equivalent rank and vice-versa. You wanted to run over the west guys as if they did not exist and carry on the old legacy US tradition of screwing thy fellow aviator. Men of honor and integrity will honor agreements made with other men. That is the right thing to do, and the rule of law says it must be done. But you guys are above the law, and are now wallowing in self-pity because you feel disenfranchised by ALPA and/or the process/policy- boo who. Don't expect any sympathy here. Tell you what, stop paying the mortgage on your house because you think they are charging you too much interest. They will quickly send you a copy of the terms/agreement you signed with them and demand payment immediately. See what they say when you demand a new agreement, that you're not happy - can you say foreclosure. The same principles apply to the TA and binding arbitration we both agreed to.

We've come full circle now for the one hundredth time. My benevolence for the east is wearing thin. :angry:
I guess y

Heh. Heh. Targert me if you wish. I'll be ok.

The fact is DOH is the only measure any pilot ever has for their seniority. Yes they understand there are untold variables that affect the way one's seniority actually plays out, but they never forget the day that the ALPA national president was there when they pinned on thier ALPA pin. Sorry, to vivid to forget.

The fact is that if Nickolau had used DOH, adjusted for active years, with all kinds of mathmagic restrictions and protections, to take into account all the subjective and speculative variables that no one really has an answer for, then there would be pissing an moaning but it would be over. Even if Nickolau's mathmagic ended up appearing to have the exact same effect as the current fiasco, it would still be over.

1988 stapled under 2004 doesn't sound right no matter how long you talk. 2004 junior to 1988 but protected by a 30 year fence, seat protections, furlough protection, etc. etc. etc. even to the extreme that it appears the '88 hire will never take the '04 seat because of subjective and speculative outcomes... "Well, STFUP, you got DOH."

Nickolau should have hidden all his speculation and subjective reasoning (which was very necessary in this merger) behid many protections and restrictions rather than taking an all out assualt on LOS. Even if the end result would have been effectively the same hose job (to whoever thinks they got hosed) no one could have argued subjective facts against the timeless understanding (and STFUP) that is afforded by DOH.

Argue all we want but the DOH of each pilot won't change no matter how many judges, argitraitors, MECs, ECs, or howdy doodies say it does. (Hey, I know. I have flown with Orville and Wilbur at AAA, and they haven't forgotten who was hired when. ) DOH with an unending list of howdy doody restrictions would cause moaning, but "STFUP and raise the gear, you got DOH." would always be the answer.

Too late now. ALPA allowed the only concrete measure of seniority to be entirely replaced by the whims of a single person with no interest in ALPA at all.

The olny solution to this is for all of us to make a living by means of something that doesn't tie us to a LCC seniority number.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Genius, the Parity plus 1% was Wolf's offer (the company) while he and United were working to join United and USair. USAir pilots got a pay raise because United was so eager to get the United contract over and move along with the merger attempt. The economy was roaring and United couldn't afford to delay the merger. ALPA didn't do crap except try to take credit for it 10 years later? How come I have know history better than the ALPA president?

because the AAA MEC gave the Defined Benefit to the company without membership ratification, after lying to the membership that the MEC would not dare give it away and would absolutely give it to the membership for their decision.
The Defined Benefit plan that the AAA MEC first gave away and caused other airlines to suffer in like manner. And tell us Capt Prater, how is that legislation going? Did you get our DB back? How is your retirement plan affected?


Must? Don't think so. That might be what you want.. but obviously you wouldn't be wasting your time on this letter if we were not exercising our right to do otherwise.

The post-bankruptcy bargaining cycle that ALPA is now coordinating is already in full swing and will provide substantial gains in pay, benefits, and work rules for all US Airways pilots when completed – just as it will for other ALPA pilots. More specific information about the contract changes already achieved in your negotiations, and ALPA’s collective bargaining strategy, will be the subject of upcoming reports.

News flash. You haven't even figured out the problem.

Visits. With ALPA money. How come you don't mention the purpose of the visits? If you are going to spend all that money should you not have an agenda announced?


Oh. Unity. Thats your agenda.

h34r: News flash: I'm a "Westie" who does NOT like the results of the Nic award. Went from #30 something at AWA to around #600 on combined list. That's a very significant kick in the nuts. But that's just my view of my personal award. As far as the whole award, I feel both sides made gains, and suffered losses about equally. I can live with that.

I hope you are enjoying retirement with a least some sort of defined pension plan. A plan like that is something those of us on the West can only dream about. Instead, we have nightmares hoping the stock marked won't tank and take our "retirement" down with it.

 

[EastUS]

h34r: News flash: I'm a "Westie" who does NOT like the results of the Nic award. Went from #30 something at AWA to around #600 on combined list. That's a very significant kick in the nuts. But that's just my view of my personal award. As far as the whole award, I feel both sides made gains, and suffered losses about equally. I can live with that.

I hope you are enjoying retirement with a least some sort of defined pension plan. A plan like that is something those of us on the West can only dream about. Instead, we have nightmares hoping the stock marked won't tank and take our "retirement" down with it.

You went from 30ish to 600. Given that 517, at least, of that 600 were hired before your airline even existed, that leaves us with an "actual" max drop of very little indeed. "I can live with that" isn't a surprising sentiment as a result. How would you feel if you had instantly lost 1800 numbers?...one thousand?..etc? many on the east have suffered such results. Now: "That's a very significant kick in the nuts."

 

[USA320Pilot]

At this point I believe it is fruitless to discuss the Nicolua Award with the AWA pilots.

Furthermore, it appears that ALPA International is afraid of USAPA's organizing effort or John Prater would not have written his Open Letter and huriedly make unannounced appearances at US Airways Pilot Crew Bases to apparently try to talk the East pilots out of "kicking" ALPA off of the East and West property.

The West pilots have elected to ignore the two EC resolutions, they are not actively working with the Rice Committee, and they do not seem to want to find a compromise per Doug Parker's letter to the pilots.

Therefore, the West pilots are fueling USAPA's efforts and representational cards are piling up at USAPA's mailbox.

Let the vote begin for both the East and West pilots!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Bear96]

Let the vote begin or both the East and West pilots!

So begin it already!

 

[USA320Pilot]

Bear 96,

Before the vote can occur USAPA and their attorney's (Scham, Scham, Meltz, and Petersen, LLC) must complete and then file the NMB Form 1 and IRS paperwork. Once this is complete the card count can begin.

At this point I doubt anything can stop the card count because it's probabaly too late for the AWA and US Airways MEC's to craft a compromise to the Nicolau Award. Once the card counts start ALPA International, the US Airways MEC, and the AWA MEC will no longer control the process and the NMB will in charge.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

More like he is resigned to the fact an ALPA decertification is a real possibility and now is just trying to convince around 500 of you to not vote ALPA off. That number combined with the entire west NO votes will prevent ALPA from being removed. You really need to get a clue. Even if you are successful, it will be your downfall anyway - either way we win. In chess terms it's called checkmate.

The only reason west is taunting you to start your "decertification" is so they can have the legal evidence to prosecute their case with haste and certain success. It will be a Tomahawk precision munitions legal battle tactically executed by our field commander Freund. Every bonehead step your MEC takes is one more nail in the coffin - the decert will be the last.

At this point I believe it is fruitless to discuss the Nicolua Award with the AWA pilots.

Furthermore, it appears that ALPA International is afraid of USAPA's organizing effort or John Prater would not have written his Open Letter and huriedly make unannounced appearances at US Airways Pilot Crew Bases to apparently try to talk the East pilots out of "kicking" ALPA off of the East and West property.

The West pilots have elected to ignore the two EC resolutions, they are not actively working with the Rice Committee, and they do not seem to want to find a compromise per Doug Parker's letter to the pilots.

Therefore, the West pilots are fueling USAPA's efforts and representational cards are piling up at USAPA's mailbox.

Let the vote begin or both the East and West pilots!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Phoenix]

More like he is resigned to the fact an ALPA decertification is a real possibility and now is just trying to convince around 500 of you to not vote ALPA off. That number combined with the entire west NO votes will prevent ALPA from being removed. You really need to get a clue. Even if you are successful, it will be your downfall anyway - either way we win. In chess terms it's called checkmate.

The only reason west is taunting you to start your "decertification" is so they can have the legal evidence to prosecute their case with haste and certain success. It will be a Tomahawk precision munitions legal battle tactically executed by our field commander Freund. Every bonehead step your MEC takes is one more nail in the coffin - the decert will be the last.

News flash... I won't agrue with you about boneheaded steps the MEC is or isn't taking. But if you think that the AAA MEC is "culpable" for a decert then your big Fruedian Tomahawk is a pud. Heck if you think anyone is "culpable" for a representative election... WTFO. What does a free and fair representation election deprive anyone of? Seiriously. What does it deprive anyone of?

 

[dariencc]

It will be a Tomahawk precision munitions legal battle tactically executed by our field commander Freund.

Thanks, I feel more optimistic than ever. You're even goofier than I thought. :blink:

Every bonehead step your MEC takes is one more nail in the coffin - the decert will be the last.

I'm trying to figure out something. If the decert will be a boon for you and a disaster for us............why we're all in favor..........and you're all opposed.

 

[EastUS]

More like he is resigned to the fact an ALPA decertification is a real possibility and now is just trying to convince around 500 of you to not vote ALPA off. That number combined with the entire west NO votes will prevent ALPA from being removed. You really need to get a clue. Even if you are successful, it will be your downfall anyway - either way we win. In chess terms it's called checkmate.

The only reason west is taunting you to start your "decertification" is so they can have the legal evidence to prosecute their case with haste and certain success. It will be a Tomahawk precision munitions legal battle tactically executed by our field commander Freund. Every bonehead step your MEC takes is one more nail in the coffin - the decert will be the last.

"That number combined with the entire west NO votes will prevent ALPA from being removed. "

"Every bonehead step your MEC takes is one more nail in the coffin - the decert will" "Even if you are successful, it will be your downfall anyway - either way we win."

Lemme see if I've got this right? The west will be behind keeping Alpo one hundred percent? OK, but: decert's actually a good thing for the west?..and the west will vote against it?

Sigh..one of us is SERIOUSLY "Confused"

"In chess terms it's called checkmate."

In actual Life terms?...that's called schizoid gibberish.

"It will be a Tomahawk precision munitions ..." Umm..did you ever check the actual stats on those from Desert Storm?....They didn't all perform so brilliantly as you might think


Sigh..."You really need to get a clue."

 

[Cactus737]

June
Not having a dog in this fight i have read with interest the many posts from both sides. I have never read a post from West that says they can not live with Nicolau.
I have never read a post from East that says they can live with it. That seems more than a little strange to me. I had hoped both sides would not like it very well.

I dont think the East really expected DOH in the end June so do you have an idea what the problem is on the West seeming to love it and the East hates it.

I realize how you can reach that conclusion objectively, but I can shed some light on to that.

Our Merger Committee (AWA) told us that realisticly, we could expect a relative-seniority ratioed integration with some East bias for their widebodies. They told us to expect to be unhappy with the list. Our expectations were low, and in fact, we were concerned that it might go date-of-hire due to the confidence by which the experienced AAA MEC proceeded with their hard-line position. Reading the arbitration transcripts certainly revealed the gaping holes in the East's proposal, yet there was still alot of anxiety about the award.

So when the award came out - it was pretty much like we thought it would come out but slightly worse. The initial reaction was relief - that it didn't go date of hire. Then our focus shifted back to the contract. We accepted 2 years ago that we weren't going to like the seniority award.

I wish I could say that expectations were managed as well on the East.

 

[Junebug172]

they are not actively working with the Rice Committe

And you guys are doing what?