An Open Letter from Capt. Prater to all AAA and AWA Pilots

[BottomFeeder]

Nah, you're not worth my time, and you're full of crap, which is a good segue for my closure with you...place head back in rectum.

I'm going to eliminate your posts and thoughts permanently – can I get an amen.

Talk about a foul series of posts this one smells as bad as Cat-Piss.

 

[nycbusdriver]

If we decertify ALPA do we have more or less protection if merge with another ALPA carrier, say United?

As far as protection, I simply look at all the protection my ALPA dues has bought me for my career. None, basically. Duane Woerth and his predecessors were happy to sign on to the loss of decades of progress on the east contracts. In that process, they effectively signed on to similar losses at other legacy carriers due to the unprecedented lowering of the bar at USAirways. Prater is quick to point out a few very short-lived victories on the east in years past. But he doesn't mention that ALPA was quick to give all of that back to the company, and those "victories" do not even exist on the property any more.

Bottom line: I'll take my chances with a new union. The old one doesn't do squat for me. "More or less protection?" More or less than the "none" provided by ALPA? It couldn't possibly be worse; what's worse than none?

 

[700UW]

The bottom line is you are the union, you and or your fellow pilots never met a concession you did not like.

When the MEC gave away your pension, is when you all should have woken up and changed leadership instead of just letting the same GAG run the show.

 

[Doc]

Because Doc, each side brought with the the seniority they held at their respective airline and you need to respect that. Add to that the fact (as stated in the award) that AAA was financially weaker and the career expectations of east pilots was non-existant, and you get what we call the Nicolau Award. Its not the West's fault that the east guys hitched their wagons to a financially weak airline.

So DOH was never an option.

And remember, Nicolau was assisted by two pilot neutrals, one chosen by each side and Nicolau agreed to by both. And, for some reason, the east thinks he's crazy now. Hmmm.

The east just couldn't figure it out.

It may not be the west fault but what has happend is not right IMO. I don't see it any other way but DOH all other groups have done DOH and have not had any problems.

 

[Pi brat]

Do you honestly believe things would have been different for the US Airways pilots with another Union? You know the old sayings, hindsight is 20/20, and the grass is always greener...I think all of the unfortunate situations the US Airways pilots have endured is mostly because of a failed business plan/model of old US dating back to the early 90's.

I have friends in east currently employed and furloughed that I talk to frequently and honestly tell them I am concerned for their future as well as mine because of the path chosen by the east MEC. They agree, but feel there is no other alternative – a feeling of inevitable destruction and hopelessness. I tell them it does not have to be that way, that there are solutions, but they feel helpless individually to do anything.

As much as we hate ALPA, I think at this point they are the lesser of all evils. Keep with the JNC process and in the end I think we can find resolution to this mess. The worst case is east votes down any CBA for the next 5 + years.

I honestly think things would have been slightly better without ALPA over the last few years. As you said, most of our problems came from flawed management, but ALPA did nothing to help. It's political structure wanted to keep the dues money coming in, so that became the top priority. Also, it is ALPA's poor merger policy that dumped this mess in all our laps.

I know you guys say the award shouldn't be a problem, and it wouldn't be if the if ALPA would just pass the list to the company. That is just not true. The NIC Award has so torn down so many pilots that it threatens our company if not ammended in some way. I said in a post several months ago that the east pilots are like Germany after WWI, and you guys are acting like France. You may have the high ground, you may win ever legal battle, you may force us to come to a joint contract, but you will still have to deal with all the ill will and I know how destructive that is to a company.

I think a better solution would be for the west MEC to truly take the high ground and concede that there are problems with the award for BOTH sides.(I agree with you that the top east guys got a windfall) I believe if they took that stance that both sides could then work for amendments that help everyone, like ratios for upgrades, fences for PHX, LAS, widebody protection,etc.

There are many on the east side that are continuing down the same old road and say they will settle for nothing but the complete removal of the NIC award. I think this is a flawed arguement, but you guys are playing right into their hands.

Back to ALPA. I think the best road would be to finish the award and joint contract with them, then come up with an in house union we can all agree on. I know there is not a west pilot in his right mind that would vote for a union born in this mess.

 

[700UW]

I see you think you know it all once again.

Every single union in the airline industry has given concessions at every major.

I guess you cant comprehend 9/11 and the fuel prices effect on the industry.

I guess you cant comprehend the IAM never reached an agreement with the company during the last chapter 11 and had the CBA abrogated and the membership voted in the final offer so the judge would not give the company carte blanche.

And you know I bet there are photo copy people in jail or charged with crimes too, unlike yourself who admitted to breaking and entering and stealing things from a coworkers office and think you were correct and morally right, but yet was not charged.

And 22 people out of 700,000 who happen to be IAM members who acted on their own have nothing, absolutley nothing to do with the topic at hand.

When are you going to be an adult and stick to the topic instead of bringing up the stupid behavior of people, not the IAM.

Says all about you when all you can do is bring up something individuals did and not the IAM.

Grow up.

 

[USA320Pilot]

700UW,

I have you on ignore so I do not have to read your comments; however, I saw that PineyBob cut and pasted your statement "the bottom line is you are the union, you and or your fellow pilots never met a concession you did not like."

The majority of the US Airways pilots agreed to concessions after every ALPA financial and legal advisor said it was the best thing to do if the pilots wanted the business enterprise to survive. Nobody likes a concession and to suggest otherwise is an ignorant statement.

For example, "the bottom line is you are the union, you and or your IAM mmebers never met a concession you did not like" would be the sme type of comment.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

P.S. Another day free of almost all comments by 700UW, at least the ones he or she posts!!!!

 

[700UW]

Ah once again you are being the master of misinformation.

The IAM voted down concessions before, never agreed to a CBA in the last bankrutpcy and had the CBA abrogated and voted on a final offer.

You pilots were/are the first to cave every single time.

Even back in 1992 and by giving concessions your group screwed every single non-union employee at US.

Your own union disavowed you and your actions.

Don't let the facts get in your way.

And you better call the EAS, you really need some help.

 

[fatherabraham]

I see you think you know it all once again.

Every single union in the airline industry has given concessions at every major.

I guess you cant comprehend 9/11 and the fuel prices effect on the industry.

When are you going to be an adult and stick to the topic instead of bringing up the stupid behavior of people, not the IAM.

Says all about you when all you can do is bring up something individuals did and not the IAM.

Grow up.

700,

Pot...Kettle...Black???

Chastising PB when all above applies to YOU and how you constantly chime in on your IAM expertise as though it MUST apply to every thread involving Alpa and other unions.

FA

 

[fatherabraham]

Well if I don’t know exactly what the issues are, how can I respond to you? I gave it my best shot at trying to determine what they are, but if you just want me to respond to just the attrition, ok then. There is no justification for "stealing" your attrition. I posted analysis months ago on the attrition and my opinion is you should keep it since it is essentially the same as the west, relatively speaking. I must clarify though, the attrition that interests most pilots is captain attrition in group 2 or larger aircraft, and this is where AWA and US are relatively the same. The rest (FO & FUR) is of no concern to 98% of AWA pilots. Assuming we all understand what relative means, we each bring attrition to be shared by all. I am so certain that there will be little or no impact to the east attrition upgrade opportunities that I think an easy part of the solution is to guarantee the east by using captain upgrade ratios to ensure east pilots capture “theirâ€￾ attrition. The same can be done in PHX and LAS, which I obviously will benefit from.

Next question: Now that we both agree the #1 pilots on the seniority lists both carry the highest seniority position, do you agree that both carry equal weight in exercising seniority rights at their respective carriers?

'Callsign_Cactus' ,
May be as many issues as a-holes as the saying goes 🙂 So how about just one. Attrition loss on the East.

There is no justification for "stealing" your attrition

Agreed and no right mind would think you did. Just a quick/emotional response to how the nic award turned out.

To be specific......now I will ask the Q.....should the East pilot who brought the Heavy flying to the table and will fall in top 10 C/O positions on A330 @ age 60 (sans merger) be relegated way below that (a300) via nic award? believe his name was D. Deen (sp) around spring of 88.

Again my answer to your Q is YES. Getting leary of your Q's as I do not see the relevance in them and too old to fall for " if you agree on a,b,c,d,e,and F then G must be the truth".
No offense intended.

FA

FA

 

[Bear96]

Hey Father,

It took me exactly ONE POST to push his buttons to the point where he brought up the Xerox thing.

Talk about pot - kettle - black!

It usually takes exactly one post for me to push your buttons and trigger a lame joke from you about ambulance-chasing lawyers.

 

[Phoenix]

The bottom line is you are the union, you and or your fellow pilots never met a concession you did not like.

When the MEC gave away your pension, is when you all should have woken up and changed leadership instead of just letting the same GAG run the show.

"You are the union"... That is hogwash and you said as much yourself when you acknowledge that the MEC (not the members) gave away the Pension. Pointing your finger at the "you are the union membership" for the crap that the MEC and EC have done is just plain nonsense.

Now, pointing the finger at the "you are the union members" for being too stupid to toss out said scallywags... I have to agree with you. However to give them crap now that they are actually doing it, albeit later than they should have... WTFO?

 

[Phoenix]

Every single union in the airline industry has given concessions at every major.

Yeah, but not every union has decided their members were "confused" when they failed to pass a consessionary new contract, and decided therefore that they had to vote again on it, so that they would pass it.


Tell me who rigged the second election for you. I guess that makes the "you are the union" IAM members more stupid than any membership of any union, seeing that no other union has declared its members "too confused" to accept their vote.

 

[A320 Driver]

"You are the union"... That is hogwash and you said as much yourself when you acknowledge that the MEC (not the members) gave away the Pension. Pointing your finger at the "you are the union membership" for the crap that the MEC and EC have done is just plain nonsense.

Now, pointing the finger at the "you are the union members" for being too stupid to toss out said scallywags... I have to agree with you. However to give them crap now that they are actually doing it, albeit later than they should have... WTFO?

I was taking a wait and see attiude on sending in my card. I have it filled out and it is sitting on my desk. This last love note from Prater has convinced me to mail it. I mean, what have we got to lose at this point. AWA 320 says the company is about to drop the hammer on us so we might as well get in the first lick. I don't know what he is alluding to with his posts, but I for one don't think the company would be wise to further provoke the East pilot group right now.

The West boys can't fly them all, even though they think they can.

A320 Driver <_<

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Not sure exactly what you mean, but your question is very subjective because it requires assumptions to be made from two different perspectives. If you are asking me whether or not an east pilot should retain the existing A330 position brought to the merger, then the answer is yes, I believe that is fair.

'Callsign_Cactus' ,
May be as many issues as a-holes as the saying goes 🙂 So how about just one. Attrition loss on the East.

There is no justification for "stealing" your attrition

Agreed and no right mind would think you did. Just a quick/emotional response to how the nic award turned out.

To be specific......now I will ask the Q.....should the East pilot who brought the Heavy flying to the table and will fall in top 10 C/O positions on A330 @ age 60 (sans merger) be relegated way below that (a300) via nic award? believe his name was D. Deen (sp) around spring of 88.

Again my answer to your Q is YES. Getting leary of your Q's as I do not see the relevance in them and too old to fall for " if you agree on a,b,c,d,e,and F then G must be the truth".
No offense intended.

FA

FA