AMT morale in the toilet

[Bear96]

Oneflyer,

Unfortunately, if even one person anywhere makes any more than an AMT, for any reason, that is enough for this crowd to start frothing at the mouth, because there is no job on the planet more noble, risky, or difficult than that of AMT.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Oneflyer,

Unfortunately, if even one person anywhere makes any more than an AMT, for any reason, that is enough for this crowd to start frothing at the mouth, because there is no job on the planet more noble, risky, or difficult than that of AMT.

Well its certainly nice to know that if there actually was someone foolish enough to say such a thing, that we have you here to follow up with an equally foolish response.

Well done!

 

[MCI transplant]

Oneflyer,

Unfortunately, if even one person anywhere makes any more than an AMT, for any reason, that is enough for this crowd to start frothing at the mouth, because there is no job on the planet more noble, risky, or difficult than that of AMT.

<_< ----- Now you got it right!!!!---

 

[Boomer]

Bear69,

Market forces have absolutely nothing to do with the prices paid to Airline Employee: AMTs', Pilots', F/As', or Rampers, within the Airline Industry.

The RLA controls and dictates the actions of EVERY PLAYER within the Industry.

You CANNOT initiate an airline without US GOVERNMENTAL APPROVAL.

You CANNOT fly every frequency AND destination without US GOVERNMENTAL APPROVAL.

You CANNOT represent any AIRLINE EMPLOYEE without US GOVERNMENTAL APPROVAL.

You CANNOT DECERTIFY any AIRLINE UNION without US GOVERNMENTAL APPROVAL.

You CANNOT ENGAGE IN SELF HELP, a strike, without US GOVERNMETAL APPROVAL.

You CAN ABROGATE EMPLOYEE (UNION) CONTRACTS without official US GOVERNMENTAL APPROVAL: while continuing to pay EXHORBITANT MANAGEMENT BONUSES AND RETENTION PAYMENTS even though those individuals are allowed to leave for another RLA Protected Air Carrier.

You state that an employee engaging in self-help; in the face of the facts above, is engaging in economic terrorism without holding the Air Carrier, the object of the RETENTION PAYMENT, and, the US GOVERNMENT equally liable for the same behaviour.

Is it only the individual, seeking redress for apparent grievances, that engages in an action you describe as terrorism when they fail to perform to their fullest extent? If so, you indicte Marin Luther, Mohattma Ghandi, and Martin Luther King.

Please do explain.

 

[eolesen]

If I remember correctly there are less than 1000 level 5s and above. And before you go off talking about people, keep in mind that a level 5 makes between 60-80k per year with a small bonus, not exactly millions of dollars.

That's correct. L5's earn about 10-15% more than the topped out employees in the TWU, and L6's earn about 10-15% more than the L5's do.

Once you hit L7/L8, you are essentially giving up your life for the company, as you're told what your next assignment will be with little regard for the impact on you or your family. Granted, those who make the jump into that level have sought it out, but personally I had no desire to sacrifice my kids or the quality of family time for a paycheck, which is why I stepped off the train.

The downside of the L5/6/7/8 is rarely discussed, and that's that you essentially live or die at the whim of your director or VP. The earnings you make for a couple of years may be what sustain you after you're asked to pursue other interests.

Just ask Dave Kennedy, Doris King, Tom Frain, Ross Bonanno, Jim Spriggs, or any number of other managers who had personality conflicts (i.e. they weren't "yes" men) with Dan Garton, Tom Del Valle. I'm sure the same examples exist within M&E and other departments.

Personally, I find focusing on someone elses paycheck is a wasted effort.

The market rate that you speak of is determined by themselves AND THEIR PEERS! No one else!

I'll respectfully disagree. In good times, everyone is trying to match Carrier X's contract. Look at the comments earlier about how NWA and UAL had industry leading pay and were the envy of everyone else. You still see people fawning over WN's contract.

The problem with that is the process works the same way in a downturn -- when the bar is lowered at Carrier X, Y and Z, (regardless if it's consensual or in a S.1113 hearing), it shouldn't be a surprise that the same standards of parity with your peers is going to be applied by the company.

 

[Bear96]

Bear69,

Market forces have absolutely nothing to do with the prices paid to Airline Employee: AMTs', Pilots', F/As', or Rampers, within the Airline Industry.

Then what determines pay for those work groups? Unions? Then why did pay decline in those heavily-unionized crafts over the past several years?

If labor market forces have nothing to do with wages, then if no one was applying for these jobs, and there were vacancies everywhere, and flights were cancelling because airlinrs simply can't find workers for those positions, wages wouldn't go up for those positions? If that is what you are saying, I completely disagree.

The RLA controls and dictates the actions of EVERY PLAYER within the Industry.

Alot, yes. "Every single," no.

You CANNOT initiate an airline without US GOVERNMENTAL APPROVAL.

And . . . ? Thanks for stating the obvious, but what does that have to do with the discussion? Government regulates a lot of industries.

You CANNOT fly every frequency AND destination without US GOVERNMENTAL APPROVAL.

Really? So if AA wanted to start flying from, say, MCI to SEA tomorrow, it would need government approval? I think you forgot about this little thing called "deregulation" that happened nearly 30 years ago now.

Sure you can't fly EVERYwhere whenever you want to without government approval, but domestically, you can fly just about everywhere whenever you want to without government approval.

But again I am missing what that has to do with the discussion about AMT compensation?

You CANNOT represent any AIRLINE EMPLOYEE without US GOVERNMENTAL APPROVAL.

If you mean you need to have a governmet-supervised election, OK, your statement is sort of correct. But again, so? What is the point you are trying to make?

You CANNOT DECERTIFY any AIRLINE UNION without US GOVERNMENTAL APPROVAL.

See above. (And please make your point already!)

You CANNOT ENGAGE IN SELF HELP, a strike, without US GOVERNMETAL APPROVAL.

Sure you can. If things are SOOOOOO bad for airline employees (and reading this wailing wall, it seems that they are), just don't go to work! If every front-line employee takes a day off, what are they going to do? They can't fire all of you.

You CAN ABROGATE EMPLOYEE (UNION) CONTRACTS without official US GOVERNMENTAL APPROVAL:

Well, you either need government (court) approval or union approval, right?

You state that an employee engaging in self-help; in the face of the facts above, is engaging in economic terrorism

OK, now I'm really confused. Where did I say anything like that? Do you have me cinfused with another poster?

I have always been clear that if you feel you are treated so badly by management and feel you have no other options, exercise your collective power and do what you need to do. I have also said that that is not always the wisest choice, and you may have to face some unpleasant consequences of your actions, but I have never likened it to terrorism. To the contrary, my message has been, "Stop the endless whining and do what you have to do already!"

 

[tech2101]

Smart man. Same with me.

If enough people did the same, airline employee wages would start to rise.

NWA did not intend to keep a work force of more than 800 mechanics, no matter what was voted on. If they had a T/A with more than that number, they simply would have laid off the difference in no time. That is what drove me to go back and finish my BAAS degree.

I had several job offers BEFORE we went on strike, all outside of the airline industry. I am now working in a great job with better benefits and pay than what I had at NWA. I am no longer working on aircraft. I voted with my feet and took my 20 years of aircraft maintenance experience with me.

Bear is right. Until we either are forced out (my case at NWA) or are just not willing to put up with the crap any longer, we are our own worst enemy. The falling wages will continue.

(BTW, I loved working on airplanes) It is just not the same industry it was when I started.

 

[Hopeful]

You're not even understanding my point. I'm saying that for eveyone other the top 10 employees, everyone is paid based upon supply and demand. Those top 10 could go earn more, but I would agree that it is artificially inflated.

The top 1000 managers do not get anything close to 400 million in bonuses or raises. Get a grip.

If I remember correctly there are less than 1000 level 5s and above. And before you go off talking about people, keep in mind that a level 5 makes between 60-80k per year with a small bonus, not exactly millions of dollars.

We are talking bonus pay here. use last years $90,000,000 payout TO THE TOP 1000 MANAGERS! Doesn't matter what level or rung on the ladder they are. THE TOP 1000 MANGERS SHARED $90,000,000 MILLION AND NOW THEY WILL SHARE AROUND $400,000,000.

Read my post again. I said the top fat cats get millions in bonus.
My whole point was 1000 people sharing $400 million and 10,000 sharing $8,940 000.

Remember last years bonus. The top 1000 managers shared $90,000,000. My manager, a level 6 received $9,000.

So do the math on $400 million as opposed to $90 million.

Now, do the math on ANYTHING as opposed to $.43 an hour or $8,940,000 for 10000 mechanics.


I ask you again: WHERE IS THE PAIN BEING SHARED BY MANAGEMENT?

 

[flyastrojets]

Don't take this post as an endorsement of management bonuses, but I do want to ask... wasn't there a joint grievance filed by APA, APFA and TWU last year, which was won by the unions? And didn't the board change the bonus program to a mostly stock payout as opposed to a cash payout? Did this grievance only apply to last year's bonus?

My point is... that while I continue to believe that the bonus plan metrics are flawed, I'm not certain that even if the plan does pay out fully this year, that what gets paid out will represent a direct transfer of $400 million in corporate treasure to the pockets of the top 1,000 managers in the company which seems to be the general consensus that I read on these boards. I've been wrong before, and could be again, but I did want to bring this up just for curiosity....

 

[TWU informer]

Don't take this post as an endorsement of management bonuses, but I do want to ask... wasn't there a joint grievance filed by APA, APFA and TWU last year, which was won by the unions? And didn't the board change the bonus program to a mostly stock payout as opposed to a cash payout? Did this grievance only apply to last year's bonus?

My point is... that while I continue to believe that the bonus plan metrics are flawed, I'm not certain that even if the plan does pay out fully this year, that what gets paid out will represent a direct transfer of $400 million in corporate treasure to the pockets of the top 1,000 managers in the company which seems to be the general consensus that I read on these boards. I've been wrong before, and could be again, but I did want to bring this up just for curiosity....

Looks like you have it right and know what is going on to me.

Cash bonuses violated restructuring agreements, so management changed the bonuses to stock.

A bone-us is a bone-us and until the concessions are returned, then bone-us handouts will be objected to no matter what form they take.

 

[700UW]

I think I figured it out.

Maybe the AMT hater hit on some male AMTs and was rebuffed so know he hates all AMTs.

 

[Oneflyer]

We are talking bonus pay here. use last years $90,000,000 payout TO THE TOP 1000 MANAGERS! Doesn't matter what level or rung on the ladder they are. THE TOP 1000 MANGERS SHARED $90,000,000 MILLION AND NOW THEY WILL SHARE AROUND $400,000,000.

Read my post again. I said the top fat cats get millions in bonus.
My whole point was 1000 people sharing $400 million and 10,000 sharing $8,940 000.

Remember last years bonus. The top 1000 managers shared $90,000,000. My manager, a level 6 received $9,000.

So do the math on $400 million as opposed to $90 million.

Now, do the math on ANYTHING as opposed to $.43 an hour or $8,940,000 for 10000 mechanics.
I ask you again: WHERE IS THE PAIN BEING SHARED BY MANAGEMENT?

Where did you come up with that $400 million number?

Its stock, not cash, get that straight. AA is not taking $400 million or whatever the correct number is out of the bank and giving it to ANYONE.

At any other company, a Level 6 getting a $9,000 bonus (I'm confused why he would tell you that) would be a disappointment. So he is sharing in the pain.

 

[Hopeful]

Where did you come up with that $400 million number?

Its stock, not cash, get that straight. AA is not taking $400 million or whatever the correct number is out of the bank and giving it to ANYONE.

At any other company, a Level 6 getting a $9,000 bonus (I'm confused why he would tell you that) would be a disappointment. So he is sharing in the pain.

The number will be between $300-400 million to be announced soon.

As for the Level 6 manager in question, a person in his office told a few of us.
And don't shed any tears for him. This was last year's bonus based on $90 million and he is an entry level Level 6.
Say his entry level salary was, ohhhh, about $83,000 a year when he received the $9000. That is almost 10% of his pay.

Not bad!

 

[Oneflyer]

The number will be between $300-400 million to be announced soon.

As for the Level 6 manager in question, a person in his office told a few of us.
And don't shed any tears for him. This was last year's bonus based on $90 million and he is an entry level Level 6.
Say his entry level salary was, ohhhh, about $83,000 a year when he received the $9000. That is almost 10% of his pay.

Not bad!

So have no independent confirmation on the $400 million and someone "in his office" told you? Did this person see his payslip?

So would you trade your union representation and seniority protection for his salary and bonus? Do you want his responsibility or lack of OT pay potential? If not, you shouldn't complain.

 

[Ed Norton]

A few ignoble quotes through out history:

"ARBEIT MACH FREI"(work makes you free)... Nazi slogan.

"BE HAPPY IN YOUR WORK"...Colonel Saito, Bridge on the River Kwai.

"YOU'RE LUCKY TO HAVE A JOB, BROTHER"...TWU sell-out scum.
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