AMT morale in the toilet

[Bear96]

You want the man or woman, who repaired the aircraft you are flying on at 32,000 feet going around 500 MPH to be the lowest paid but still qualified?

Yes.

This sounds like a comment someone who flew NWA while SCABS "worked" on the aircraft only to have wheels fall off in flight. You can not have both, lowest paid AND quality.

Sure you can.

If the "wheels fell off in flight" due to the mechanics not being qualified, as you seem to imply, then that's a different issue, isn't it? An employer should only pay what is necessary to attract QUALIFIED people. *IF* the problem in your example was that NW wasn't able to attract qualified mechanics because the pay was too low, then I agree, NW should increase its mechanics' wages.

What don't you comprehend about a group of individuals who took the time and money to become skilled to do what an AMT does?

I don't know -- what don't I comprehend (in terms of how it relates to this discussion)? Enlighten me.

What don't you understand about doing a job and being compensated FAIRLY for your responsibilities?

I understand that in the real world, there is no such thing as being compensated "fairly." Most everyone things they should be getting paid more. Therefore, most everyone thinks they are not getting paid "fairly." And therefore, a discussion about whether one feels as if one is being paid "fairly" is rather useless and dull. The answer is always, "No, I should be paid more; I am 'worth' more than I am being paid." Repeat ad nauseam. To debate such a subjective concept is an exercise in futility.

It is much better to stick to objective reality. So instead, ask this: What don't YOU understand about the simple law of supply and demand as it relates to the labor market?

With you posts/comments it seems as if you come across an adversity, no matter how big or small, you would simply "cross the street" and start over someplace else only till adversity crossed your path again.

OK, just how "adverse" do you guys have it? What is the gross salary of a senior AMT at AA these days who works full time for a whole year? What kind of benefits do you get (health insurance; travel benefits; pension; life insurance; etc.)? I understand it is not as much as you would like to get, or as much as you were getting a few years ago, but really, are you scraping by on $18K/yr like many people in this country?

Yes, there are other jobs out there an AMT can cross over to. But I will fight to protect and promote my craft.

That's fine. But just realize you are waging a futile battle as long as (1) the supply and demand thing is working against you, and/or (2) the vast majority of your colleagues remain unwilling to actually go out on strike to promote your cause. I don't see (1) or (2) changing any time soon, so knock yourself out and keep working for (what you perceive to be) peanuts to send that message and "keep on fighting" as the travelling public continues to enjoy cheap fares at your expense.

That way I know that ignorant individuals such as yourself remain safe at 32,000 feet while brushing up against the speed of sound. Oh, I'll also make sure your aircraft's tires remain attached for landing.

You'd better; that's why my fare is going to pay your salary.

 

[MCI transplant]

As much as airplane mechanics do, yes (and in many cases, much more so).
What is your "case"?

I'm missing your point. I have never said that compensation is, or should be, related to how often someone takes the lives of others in his hands, as you seem to think. That is almost irrelevant to determining how much a job is "worth" in the labor market.

Assuming for the sake of this discussion that it is accurate to say that airplane mechanics are compensated less than the others to a "large degree," that simply means that for some reason, people are willing to work for lower wages as an airplane mechanic than they are in the other positions. Compensation has nothing to do with taking lives into hands.

You guys really think you are some sort of mythical selfless heroes in dangerous jobs that are "worth" what, a million dollars per year, don't you? Perhaps this detachment from the reality of your place in the overall labor market, and apparent lack of understanding of basic economics, explains a lot about the unionized airplane mechanic mentality. It's really not wise to go through life and base career decisions on such bad information.

<_< ----Just curious! And in your, all knowing mind, what is a Human life worth??? Come on! Using your basic economical principals, what is a life worth in Dollars and cents?

 

[Bear96]

<_< ----Just curious! And in your, all knowing mind, what is a Human life worth??? Come on! Using your basic economical principals, what is a life worth in Dollars and cents?

Many things in life are priceless. Life itself certainly is.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Long ago, the airlines decided that it was cheaper to lose some lives and pay off the survivors, than to spend the money for safety.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

QUOTE(Ken MacTiernan @ Dec 27 2006, 08:34 PM)

You want the man or woman, who repaired the aircraft you are flying on at 32,000 feet going around 500 MPH to be the lowest paid but still qualified?

Yes.


Fool.

 

[700UW]

Many AMTs at US Airways have left, top out pay is around $25 an hour, they went to work for Philip Morris, (another IAM represented group) and start out at $27 an hour and top out in one year at about $33 an hour fixing machines that make cigarettes.

So an AMT who puts his freedom on the line everyday is worth less then a person fixing a machines that produces cigarettes.

There is something very wrong with this country.

And Bear, you really need to rethink your values, you pay for what you get for, go visit some of the MRO (chop shops) airlines use, most of the employees are not even licenesed mechanics, yet they are working on the planes the public flies.

 

[MCI transplant]

Many things in life are priceless. Life itself certainly is.

<_< ----- Thanks for an honest answer! I'll remember that the next time I rig the control surfaces on that 767 you flew on last week! Or trouble shoot the auto- pilot! Or install, and rig that troublesome engine throttle cable! I think we get the picture!--- You've made it clear,as long as you get your cheap ticket, it really doesn't matter who's worked on the Aircraft your about to fly on! Sir, I've worked on all types of Aircraft. From military fighters, to 747's, from Pipers, to Airbus, to L1011s, in my 40+ years Aircraft experience, and never have I heard such arrogance!---- Ken used the word "Fool"! You talk a good talk, but in the end, your just showing us your ignorance of what is really happening! Oh, you'll get your cheap ticket, but at a price! And that price may be you, or someone you love! You don't have a clue as to what it takes to keep an Aircraft flying "Safely" day in and day out! Todays Airlines have the safest record in years! To the point where fools like yourself take it for granted! And you feel this is all just an accident? Well think again!!!!!---

 

[Wretched Wrench]

I often marvel at non-employees who post here with such vitriol toward the working class or union member or whomever it is they hate today.

Either they are shills or seriously need to get a life. Either way, they are pathetic, albeit entertaining.

 

[Bear96]

So an AMT who puts his freedom on the line everyday . . .

Follow along. This bit of melodrama has been tried before in this thread and found lacking.

AMTs do not "put their freedom" on the line every day. They, like anyone else, may risk their freedom if they are acting criminally (i.e., knowingly and willfully doing something wrong to harm someone else). But other than that, it is a misleading talking point dreamed up by some union rep desparate for attention.

 

[Bear96]

You've made it clear,as long as you get your cheap ticket, it really doesn't matter who's worked on the Aircraft your about to fly on!

Could you please quote where I made it "clear" that it doesn't matter who is working on aircraft.

What I have in fact made clear is that the person must be qualified to do the job.

Either you are purposefully being misleading about what I am saying, or you simply lack reading comprehension skills.

You talk a good talk, but in the end, your just showing us your ignorance of what is really happening! Oh, you'll get your cheap ticket, but at a price! And that price may be you, or someone you love! You don't have a clue as to what it takes to keep an Aircraft flying "Safely" day in and day out! Todays Airlines have the safest record in years! To the point where fools like yourself take it for granted! And you feel this is all just an accident? Well think again!!!!!---

You really refuse to understand what I am saying. I have been very clear that the people doing the work must be qualified. I don't know how I can be any clearer. Of course safety is expensive and doesn't happen by accident.

Read your own post. "Today's airlines have the safest record in years." Now how can that be, if today's AMT pay has been slashed to "unacceptable" levels?

Are you saying that if AMT pay is tripled tomorrow, air travel will become three times as safe?

When "qualified" people such as those posting here (and I am assuming y'all are "qualified") leave the profession and airlines can't find enough qualified people to replace you, wages will rise or the airlines will have a problem. But YOU ARE STILL HERE, and you continue to ignore the impact that has on the plight of the AMT -- you complain about how terrible the job is, but you don't do anything about it, and so management has no incentive to change anything. That's the fact, Jack!

I am just pointing out the harsh realities of today's labor market. Attacking me personally won't change it. Keeping your heads in the sand won't change it either.

And Bear, you really need to rethink your values, you pay for what you get for, go visit some of the MRO (chop shops) airlines use, most of the employees are not even licenesed mechanics, yet they are working on the planes the public flies.

And this is bad . . . how exactly? MCI transplant just admitted today's airlines have the safest record in years, supposedly at a time when more and more work is being done by MRO's. So what's the problem?

If management can find a way to keep costs down without impacting the customer and without compromising safety, more power to 'em!

Perhaps you should be asking why people are willing to work at these "chop shops" for what you would presumably consider to be low wages? I guess that means those who work at other places (i.e., non-chop shop mechanics -- including those employed directly by airlines) are overpaid, if the chop shops are doing the same work for less. Why aren't the unions organizing the chop shops?

I often marvel at non-employees who post here with such vitriol toward the working class or union member or whomever it is they hate today.

"Vitriol"? "Hate"? Good one.

I take it that was directed towards me.

I think an honest reading of this thread will show that any vitriol or hate has been directed towards me, and is not coming from me. I am simply explaining my view calmly, instead of hurling insults, like others here are doing to me.

Unless of course you define "vitriol" and "hate" as "not automatically and unquestioningly swallowing the unionist talking points hook, line and sinker."

 

[Bear96]

By the way, I would love to see you, or any other airline work group, set tools down and go on strike to stop the slide of your professions. Bring the air travel system to a halt. Send a message that you are done subsidizing cheap air travel with your givebacks. It would be great. That would make management and the travelling public take you seriously.

But collectively, you are simply not willing to do it. You are not willing to put your money where your mouth is. You are not willing to walk the talk. (Maybe I'll add some more cliches later.)

So either things really aren't as bad as you make them out to be, or you're a bunch of whimps; I'm not sure which.

In any case, until you are willing to actually DO something about your supposed plight, no one really cares. So get back to work and quit whining already.

 

[Hopeful]

Once again, you are missing the point, Bear!

The airlines used 9/11 and its subsequent negative impact on the industry to finally break the unions! Many airlines filed for Chapter 11, so they can force new pay and work rules on the workers. The wonderful selfless airline management asked bankruptcy judges to force the workers to take drastic cuts in pay and benefits or else the judge MUST abrogate all union contracts.
Then after making that plea to the bankruptcy judges, the same airline management team went back and asked the same bankruptcy judges to INCREASE THE PAY AND COMPENSATION PACKAGES OF THEIR MANAGEMENT SO THEY WOULDN'T LOSE THE "KEY" PEOPLE!

In current events, AMR was downgraded and is forecasting a loss for the 4th quarter and the year overall.
BEAR, HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO BET THAT THEY ARE STILL GOING TO SHARE IN THEIR 300-500 MILLION IN BONUS PAY?

 

[Bear96]

So, what are you going to do about it?

 

[Hopeful]

So, what are you going to do about it?

You don't seem to have a problem with the working class continually getting pushed down further and further, do you?

I am going to stay on the job along with thousands of other pissed off AAers and help drive customers aways and the stock into the toilet!

How's that, bear?

By the way, I have enough seniority along with my age that if AA ever gets to me in a layoff, THERE'S NO AMERICAN AIRLINES LEFT. And I did enough over my working life to be able to still retire comfortably!

SO, I WILL STILL CONTINUE TO HELP AA TANK!

 

[Bear96]

You don't seem to have a problem with the working class continually getting pushed down further and further, do you?

Define how you are using "care" in this situation. I am aware of the dictinary definition, but in what ways do you want someone to show he "cares" in the sense you mean? Of course I care in the sense that it would be nice to see everyone make a gazillion dollars a year and live a life of leisure, with service providers available to cater to their every whim. But I also know enough about economics to know that that is an impossible dream (for example, who would the service providers be in that scenario?).

However, if you mean "care" in some other more active way, if the "working class" (and I would be interested in seeing your definition of that too -- what income level are you talking about?) isn't willing to do anything about their situation, then it means their situation isn't all that bad, or "the working class" is otherwise too lazy or complacent. If they don't care about their situation, why should anyone else?

I am going to stay on the job along with thousands of other pissed off AAers and help drive customers aways and the stock into the toilet!

How's that, bear?

. . .

SO, I WILL STILL CONTINUE TO HELP AA TANK!

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I have trouble seeing how that will improve your situation, though, and so it seems rather pointless. Maybe you could turn that anger into something more productive, like going back to school to further your education so more job opportunities are available to you? Just a thought; it's your life.

And your theory also doesn't jive with the altruism I keep seeing posted here about how people "love" airplanes and the airline industry in an almost mystical way. Where's the love in your philosophy of destruction?

By the way, I no longer consider you to be "qualified" to be an airline mechanic. Someone who wants to destroy his employer is no longer fit to be working for that employer. Consider yourself replaceable by someone who is indeed qualified and willing to work for less than you do.