AMT morale in the toilet

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Maslow says pay is a hygiene factor, not a motivator. True, as far as it goes, but the obverse side of that coin is that pay might not be a motivator, pay cuts are most definitely demotivators. Negatives are always stronger than positives. And while we adjust rather well to pay increases, adjusting to pay cuts generates a lasting reservoir of ill will. It's basic human nature. Few will remember what you've done for them, but all will rememeber what you have done to them.

Aint that the truth <_<

Funny that nobody wants to ever post airline pay vs. CPI for years prior to deregulation... It's a fact that airline wages were considerably higher than the national average up until 1979. Show this from 1970 forward, and you'd see that what happened in the 80's and into the 90's was a correction as airline wages fell back into line with national averages.

If you take the same chart and trend it against national averages instead of just CPI, you'd also see that wages fell below the national average somewhere between 1995 and 2000, and continue to stay there.

How about trending it against corporate management pay.

 

[Hopeful]

Funny that nobody wants to ever post airline pay vs. CPI for years prior to deregulation... It's a fact that airline wages were considerably higher than the national average up until 1979. Show this from 1970 forward, and you'd see that what happened in the 80's and into the 90's was a correction as airline wages fell back into line with national averages.

If you take the same chart and trend it against national averages instead of just CPI, you'd also see that wages fell below the national average somewhere between 1995 and 2000, and continue to stay there.

It's also funny that you say there was a "correction" as wages fell back in line with national wages WITHOUT MENTIONING EXECUTIVE PAY AND BONUSUSES!

Funny how we were "corrected" but you don't use the same term for outrageous executive compensation.

AA MANGEMENT IS GETTING READY TO SHARE IN MEGA MILLIONS IN BONUSES WHILE WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR $.46 AN HOUR RAISE IN APRIL!


MERRY %%^&ING CHRISTMAS AA EMPLOYEES!

 

[limit]

Funny that nobody wants to ever post airline pay vs. CPI for years prior to deregulation... It's a fact that airline wages were considerably higher than the national average up until 1979. Show this from 1970 forward, and you'd see that what happened in the 80's and into the 90's was a correction as airline wages fell back into line with national averages.

If you take the same chart and trend it against national averages instead of just CPI, you'd also see that wages fell below the national average somewhere between 1995 and 2000, and continue to stay there.

Are you saying that airline pay before reregulation faired better vs CPI?
What figures are you using?

As for salaries being beter than the national average,what does that prove about Bobs CPI example?
A salary can be higher or lower than the national average and still perform better or worse than CPI.
Apples and oranges.
Now, if you have some numbers that show the relationship of airline wages to CPI pre reregulaion please post.

 

[Bagbelt]

I remember as a child my dad going on strike at TWA in maybe 1973 or 1974. He literaly doubled his pay. If I remember correctly he went from around $3 an hour to $6. A new caddy was probably $5,000 then.

 

[limit]

I remember as a child my dad going on strike at TWA in maybe 1973 or 1974. He literaly doubled his pay. If I remember correctly he went from around $3 an hour to $6. A new caddy was probably $5,000 then.

Minimum wage in 74 was $2.00,a caddy $ 6200-6700.

 

[Bear96]

This chart will illustrate how our pay has declined every year since 1984. With the exception of a year and a half, after which we sunk even lower.

Maslow says pay is a hygiene factor, not a motivator. True, as far as it goes, but the obverse side of that coin is that pay might not be a motivator, pay cuts are most definitely demotivators. Negatives are always stronger than positives. And while we adjust rather well to pay increases, adjusting to pay cuts generates a lasting reservoir of ill will. It's basic human nature. Few will remember what you've done for them, but all will rememeber what you have done to them.

Click on the chart to read the numbers.

Pay declining for 20 years would motivate me to get another job. Especially if it was affecting my "morale" and making me miserable. You spend a lot of time at work -- why be miserable?

By the way. If people are still willing to work despite declining wages, guess what -- wages will continue to decline.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Pay declining for 20 years would motivate me to get another job. Especially if it was affecting my "morale" and making me miserable. You spend a lot of time at work -- why be miserable?

By the way. If people are still willing to work despite declining wages, guess what -- wages will continue to decline.

Perhaps people believe in their jobs. I do. My morale is bottomed out at AA since the executive bonuses after the "Shared sacrifice" bullshit song and dance they, AND the twu put on. Considering that the executives AND twu atd int. officers would be uneffected it was to their benefit to do what they did. FACT!

Now, I also believe that my skilled & technical job is worth fighting for. Not only for those in my craft & class but also for those who will be repairing aircraft after I retire. Do YOU want my profession to go to the lowest possible cost? If you do then either you are an executive getting a bonus or are a twu atd int. officer who has not receieved his/her share of sacrifice.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Funny that nobody wants to ever post airline pay vs. CPI for years prior to deregulation...

Funny? Why is that? Do you mean to imply that we went ahead of the CPI.

We did not. We fell behind.

In 1970 my topped-out base was $5.49. At the end of 79, I was making $11.21. If my wages had kept even with the consumer price index, they would have been $11.66.

So, we were not even staying even, scarcely a situation that requires "correction".

These figures are from AA pay stubs and government sites.

It's a fact that airline wages were considerably higher than the national average up until 1979.

Is it? National average WHAT?

Show this from 1970 forward, and you'd see that what happened in the 80's and into the 90's was a correction as airline wages fell back into line with national averages.

As I said, we were a little behind the CPI, so I do not see how you can make a case that we needed "correction"

My figures are verifiable. I would be interested in where you got your figures. What, exactly, are those "national averages" that you quote? And where do they come from?

 

[Bear96]

Perhaps people believe in their jobs. . . . Now, I also believe that my skilled & technical job is worth fighting for.

So you are consciously choosing to stick with it no matter what (which, of course, guarantees wages will stay low) instead of leaving and seeking out a more lucrative career (which, if course, if enough of you did that, would lead to airlines having to raise wages to attract qualified people -- but I suppose that escapes you). Guess you have chosen to be miserable then. Good luck with your plan!

BTW. "Believe in your job" -- to the extent of sticking with it even when it becomes obvious it was clearly a poor career choice and you have other options open to you? What an odd concept. Sounds like a guaranteed way to end up stuck in a dead end. I would recommend a job that yields the most compensation and best quality of life for your skills, always keeping an eye on other opportunities and having a Plan B ready to roll. That occassionally involves reevaluating if there are other, better options out there, and may even involve learning new skills when necessary.

Do YOU want my profession to go to the lowest possible cost?

Yes, I want your profession to go to the lowest possible cost that will still attract qualified people. Since you would no doubt consider yourself qualified, and you have made it quite clear that things still aren't bad wage enough to make you consider leaving, I see more room for cutting.

If you do then either you are an executive getting a bonus or are a twu atd int. officer who has not receieved his/her share of sacrifice.

Hmmm . . . well, part of my compensation structure does include receiving "bonuses" under certain circumstances, but I am not an "executive" (nor am I in the airline industry). And I don't think I'm an "twu atd int," because I don't know what that means, and I guess if I was one, I would know. So, guess again!

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

BTW. "Believe in your job" -- to the extent of sticking with it even when it becomes obvious it was clearly a poor career choice and you have other options open to you? What an odd concept.

You will never understand the resoning.
You are not capeable of understanding the satisfaction and gratification of repairing an aircraft and then watching it leave the earth and fly away.
Most of us cant leave the industry because we actually love what we do. We love Airplanes. We love to watch them Takeoff and land. I have seen thousands of planes takoff but I have to watch it over and over bacause it amazes me. We choose to stay and try to make it a career worth fighting for.
Now crawl back into your hole you just dont get it.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Yes, I want your profession to go to the lowest possible cost that will still attract qualified people. Since you would no doubt consider yourself qualified, and you have made it quite clear that things still aren't bad wage enough to make you consider leaving, I see more room for cutting.

Two different things.

Having pay high enough to keep an older employee with Defined Benefit retirement "golden handcuffs" from leaving and starting all over is far different than "attracting qualified people". Then, of course, I have no idea what your definition of "qualified people" is. I suspect you cannot articulate that, either. When AA was the lowest paying major airline, the better qualified mechs were staying away in droves. It is a wonder that we got the few good mechs that we did. Unfortunately, many of them have left. It is easy for a well qualified mech to stay away, but much harder for one who is settled in to leave. If I were younger, and had a DC pension, I would be gone in a New York Minute. In the future, AA will switch to a DC pension plan, and there will be many more mechs leaving for better opportunities. But there is an unlimited supply of unlicensed, untrained, unskilled, illiterate and illegal workers to take their place, so you will still get your cheap tickets. You will be flying on airplanes maintained by people who are not able to fix your car or even your lawn mower or garden tractor. I don't believe you have seen some of the pictures of airline repairs that are coming out of China. There are some real horror stories from third party chop shops in the US, too. It will only get worse.

Most of the airline industry no longer attracts the quality of mechanics it used to. American has again and again lowered its requirements. It started when there was no longer a draft with the military doing the screening and training for AA. Heck, language competency and literacy are even way down. Our manuals are more dumbed-down with every iteration. We haven't quite reached the comic-book stage, but it is coming. The effect of that is doubtless lost on you, but as time goes on it will be more and more apparent. Assuming you own a Mercedes or BMW, do you take it to the cheapest guy who says he is a mechanic? How about paint and body work on a car you value? Geeze! There is such a race to the bottom that even those who are willing to pay for quality cannot find quality work due the low wage unskilled work force. But, of course, you can avoid all that by buying a new car every year or two. Airlines can't do that.

 

[Bear96]

You will never understand the resoning.
You are not capeable of understanding the satisfaction and gratification of repairing an aircraft and then watching it leave the earth and fly away.
Most of us cant leave the industry because we actually love what we do. We love Airplanes. We love to watch them Takeoff and land. I have seen thousands of planes takoff but I have to watch it over and over bacause it amazes me. We choose to stay and try to make it a career worth fighting for.
Now crawl back into your hole you just dont get it.

Management is taking advantage of your addiction to airplanes.

You seem fine with the arrangement. You are giving them no motivation to change -- and, if anything, you are making it clear that they can lower your pay even further and you aren't going to go anywhere because you LOVE airplanes and will do ANYTHING to keep working around them.

That's what I don't understand.

 

[Bear96]

Two different things.

Having pay high enough to keep an older employee with Defined Benefit retirement "golden handcuffs" from leaving and starting all over is far different than "attracting qualified people".

How so? Yes one deals with attracting new people and the other deals with retaining senior people, but the principle is the same: if someone feels the compensation is not "fair," they quit / do not apply, and take their skills to an employer they feel compensates them fairly.

Then, of course, I have no idea what your definition of "qualified people" is. I suspect you cannot articulate that, either.

The dicionary is your friend.

From www.m-w.com:

QUALIFIED. 1 a : fitted (as by training or experience) for a given purpose : COMPETENT b : having complied with the specific requirements or precedent conditions (as for an office or employment) : ELIGIBLE

When AA was the lowest paying major airline, the better qualified mechs were staying away in droves. It is a wonder that we got the few good mechs that we did. Unfortunately, many of them have left. It is easy for a well qualified mech to stay away, but much harder for one who is settled in to leave. If I were younger, and had a DC pension, I would be gone in a New York Minute. In the future, AA will switch to a DC pension plan, and there will be many more mechs leaving for better opportunities. But there is an unlimited supply of unlicensed, untrained, unskilled, illiterate and illegal workers to take their place, so you will still get your cheap tickets. You will be flying on airplanes maintained by people who are not able to fix your car or even your lawn mower or garden tractor. I don't believe you have seen some of the pictures of airline repairs that are coming out of China. There are some real horror stories from third party chop shops in the US, too. It will only get worse.

Most of the airline industry no longer attracts the quality of mechanics it used to. American has again and again lowered its requirements. It started when there was no longer a draft with the military doing the screening and training for AA. Heck, language competency and literacy are even way down. Our manuals are more dumbed-down with every iteration. We haven't quite reached the comic-book stage, but it is coming. The effect of that is doubtless lost on you, but as time goes on it will be more and more apparent. Assuming you own a Mercedes or BMW, do you take it to the cheapest guy who says he is a mechanic? How about paint and body work on a car you value? Geeze! There is such a race to the bottom that even those who are willing to pay for quality cannot find quality work due the low wage unskilled work force. But, of course, you can avoid all that by buying a new car every year or two. Airlines can't do that.

Ah yes, the old stand-by, the unionist "sky is falling" rhetoric.

I used to believe that, a little bit. But we have people like you and TIME FOR CHANGE, who have made it very clear you are not leaving, no how, no way, no matter how badly management treats you, period, end of story, because you "believe in your job" and "love airplanes," basically giving management carte blanche to do whatever they want to with no repercussions. You guys truly are a management wet dream come true.

If the situation ever reaches a point where "qualified" (see above for definition) people truly aren't applying or staying, the invisible hand of the market will do its work, and voila, wages will rise.

 

[Hopeful]

Bear96, like so many others misses the point by a long shot.

Prior to the concessions, I don't recall ANYONE ever complaining about executive compensation and bonuses. We were treated better and had not giving anything back. But to continue to accept "OBSCENE" compensation and bonuses while
"we are not out of the woods yet" is simply AArogant!

Bear96,like so many others, suggest "if you don't like it here, go elsewhere."

Such a profound suggestion, Bear! So we quit, go elsewhere and work under the same greedy, arrogant management that plagues corporate America?

You miss the point that management has raped us and got away with the crime!

Why is that so hard for you to comprehend, Bear?

Who the hell are on the front lines, dealing with passengers?
Handling and loading baggage and cargo?
Ensuring safety and comfort of passengers?
Maintaining aircraft?
Flying aircraft?

Who, Bear?

NO ONE WOULD BE COMPLAINING ABOUT EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION HAD THEY NOT TOUCHED OURS?

DO YOU UNDERSTAND, BEAR????????????????????????



THEY DID NOT SHARE IN THE SACRIFICES, BEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bear96]

So? I understand all that, but I don't see the relevance to the true issue.

The real issue is if you don't think Employer AA is paying you fairly, and you think Employer BB will treat you better / pay you better / etc., why don't you go to Employer B? Who cares what the executives at Employer AA and Employer BB are making? You probably think every CEO at any company is overpaid.

Are you trying to say that by staying at AA, you are somehow sending a message to the greedy corporate bosses? You'll "teach them a lesson" by staying and working for wages you think are poor? Could you connect those dots for me, because I don't see any sense in that line of thinking. In other words, what are you accomplishing by way of improving the corporate greed you complain of? You stay and stay, yet also seem to think the greed is getting worse and worse. So what are you accmplishing by staying exactly?

Or are you saying that indeed, AA is the best option out there for your skill set? If so, then staying makes perfect sense. However, the endless whining and pining and self-pity doesn't and "woe is me" and "management is evil" mantra doesn't. Go out and get a skill or a degree that gives you more leverage in the marketplace if AA is the best option for you but yet still isn't good enough for your standards.

BTW, corporate greed is nothing new in this country. Do some research into Andrew Carnegie or robber barons. Since unionized America seems to have lost its collective will to actually take action (i.e., strike) against such greed, you'll either have to get used to it, or let the bitterness eat you up. (Or, of course, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, and do what it takes to be a big corporate muckety-muck mogul yourself.) Free country. Your choice.