AMFA Organizing Drive to Replace Association

[JREwing]

Good comeback

 

[1AA]

With all due respect, the AMFA may want to find another member to argue the above points made by IAM/TWU. In no fan of any union, but your bold text responses are sooooo weak. Sounds more like politician talking points during a debate. You better come with better bullet point arguments than those.

If you doubt his responses then maybe you should take the time and do your own research before criticizing others who do.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

With all due respect, the AMFA may want to find another member to argue the above points made by IAM/TWU. In no fan of any union, but your bold text responses are sooooo weak. Sounds more like politician talking points during a debate. You better come with better bullet point arguments than those.

JREwing;

The ASSociation put out info as to how they felt about what has happened with AMFA over the years, all I did was bring up what and NOT all that has Gone on with the TWU as well as the IAM over my 41 years in the Airline Industry. Isn't that what they did in their letter/statement. I gave high lights there is so much more in detailed information that has happened with both the TWU&IAM but that it is NOT my job to provide to you. I have hopefully got you to think about what the TWU&IAM have failed at and what they have failed you at and get you to research the History yourself. I KNOW most guys here at AA want to be spoon fed.
If you have No stake in this M&R issue then as 4A mechanic asked you why would you care?

 

[Duke787]

As Most of you should of seen by now the ASSociation has fired it's first shot across the bow with all the BS that has happened with AMFA over all the YEARS.

Don't ask yourself what happened with AMFA, REMEMBER WHAT THE TWU HAS DONE FOR YOU, AND THE REASON YOU ALL SIGNED A CARD.

1. Our dues will STOP going to the Association and go to AMFA, so money is NO longer an issue.

2. You will have a voice and a say as to what happen with your Local and everything else.

3. Your contract and future contracts will NOT be tied to the FLEET or Stores Divisions of the TWU.

4. YOU Personally get a Ballot to vote for the officers of the National. Unlike the TWU/IAM convention appointed leaders

5. TWU/IAM are part of the AFL-CIO, ask them why haven't changed the RLA (Railway Labor Act) to improve the Mechanics status in all these years?

6. Why didn't the TWU put up this much fight when other groups left the TWU?

7. Why is Tulsa smaller NOW than it was yrs ago?

8. Why did the TWU allow AA to close AFW?

9. From 2003 to now HOW MANY mechanics have been laid off How many SRPs, How many shops have closed and work outsourced?

10. What Happened to TAESEL, aka Engine shop?

11. Why in 1991 did the TWU use your years of vesting for your FUTURE RETIREMENT BENEFITS as a bargaining tool to go from 12 years to top out in pay rate to 5 years, when Federal Law made it 5years to be vested for retirement in Jan of 1989.

12. I AM NOT TRYING TO CAUSE ANY RIFT BETWEEN THE IAM/TWU GUYS WITH THIS STATEMENT. Why with a joint contract which is the ASSOCIATION, is there separate medical and other benefits

With just these few questions I am Hoping that you get my drift, the industry we all have worked in for yrs has changed and through all the years and economical
down turns people have lost jobs, airlines have gone out of business, and so on. At NWA they went on STRIKE, which was voted on by the membership. Just Like at Eastern we voted to go on STRIKE. How much of the Title 2 guys got cut this time? How much of their work is being outsourced? What about all the seat Mods that are being done outside of AA. Continental filed BK how many times and are where are they, United filed BK with IAM & AMFA in place. USAir filed BK 2X with the IAM what did they lose in those filings. Look and ask what Happened to PANAM under the TWU's watch? How much of what we had in years past is NO Longer and that is what the TWU has allowed AA to Take.

All this kind of stuff will be thrown out by the TWU/IAM just to save your DUES.

DON'T FALL FOR IT STAY THE COARSE AND BRING AMFA HERE TO AA.

I think it’s not fair to Twu to say they allowed AFW to close. What is more accurate is that we took concessions in 2003 to save OH in TAESL MCI AFW TUL and DWH, only to see TAESL AFW MCI all close and TUL to be cut in half.



Another thing not mentioned 17 years of concession contract ( worst in industry) let’s not forget this current contract is worse then the one we had in 2003, and the twu allowed us to lose a week of vacation we earned in 2002 to be taken away in 2003. Then this current contract favors IAM members despite the fact the fact they were forced into association without a vote either. Plus we don’t have as much vacation as UAL or as much pay as SWA FEDEX UPS UAL all this while working at largest airline in the world.

 

[Old Azz Mechanic]

JREwing;

The ASSociation put out info as to how they felt about what has happened with AMFA over the years, all I did was bring up what and NOT all that has Gone on with the TWU as well as the IAM over my 41 years in the Airline Industry. Isn't that what they did in their letter/statement. I gave high lights there is so much more in detailed information that has happened with both the TWU&IAM but that it is NOT my job to provide to you. I have hopefully got you to think about what the TWU&IAM have failed at and what they have failed you at and get you to research the History yourself. I KNOW most guys here at AA want to be spoon fed.
If you have No stake in this M&R issue then as 4A mechanic asked you why would you care?

I have always wondered how you cant stand the TWU and How you always tell how bad of a job they have done. Yet when you lost your job at Eastern you chose to come work here. At that time most of you Eastern guys talked about how strong you guys was and shut Eastern down.
We at AA and TWU have done what it took to keep our Jobs several times. That is the ONLY reason you was able to get a job at AA. Not only YOU but ALL of your Eastern Buddies. So Let me get this right. You shut Eastern Down because you didn't want to take a pay cut. Then you came over to AA and took a pay cut. Sounds like you Eastern guys are not that bright.

 

[A&P]

It's azzbackwards reasoning like that, that keeps you slaves to the whims of the association.

 

[dfw gen]

I have always wondered how you cant stand the TWU and How you always tell how bad of a job they have done. Yet when you lost your job at Eastern you chose to come work here. At that time most of you Eastern guys talked about how strong you guys was and shut Eastern down.
We at AA and TWU have done what it took to keep our Jobs several times. That is the ONLY reason you was able to get a job at AA. Not only YOU but ALL of your Eastern Buddies. So Let me get this right. You shut Eastern Down because you didn't want to take a pay cut. Then you came over to AA and took a pay cut. Sounds like you Eastern guys are not that bright.

now it comes out

 

[richardhead]

We at AA and TWU have done what it took to keep our Jobs several times.

That kind of thinking is why we are in this messed up Association. Keep drinking the Kool Aid. The TWU has done nothing to advance the Title 1 or 2's. The TWU use the Title 1 and 2's to bring all the other Title groups up.

 

[swamt]

This is the Letter Put out by the TWU/IAM Association since we filed

Tiny Raider Association Threatens Mechanics at American Airlines
I am wondering if all the mechanics who signed cards to bring us a VOTE are Threatened? And if so HOW SCARED are You?

A small and poorly-resourced association claimed on Friday that it secured the requisite support among mechanic and related workers at American Airlines to call for a representation election. The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (amfa) filed what is known as an application for investigation for a representation dispute with the National Mediation Board (NMB) Friday afternoon. The NMB will now determine if a dispute actually exists.

The NMB will now await a list from AA of the eligible voters that the company believes is within the M&R class and Craft. Also the Association will do everything it can to also figure a way to dispute the total numbers we have at this time.

In its announcement, amfa claimed that changes in union representation will “not impact your current collective bargaining agreement.” That is one of their lies. A change in representation will end the guaranteed medical insurance benefits and defined pension plan for every former LUS mechanic and related worker. And if amfa were successful in a representation vote, all American Airlines mechanic and related workers will risk their industry best scope language, since amfa has the worst record when it comes to protecting the work of its members.

What the TWU/IAM Fails to tell you is the current contract remains in place until it becomes ammedable, so the scope language remains the same. As far as the Defined Pension Plan as they call it, it is a IAMNPF a pension ran by and started by the IAM, If the LUS employees switch to AMFA as Part of the M&R workgroup
IT IS CORRECT THAT, NO FURTHER PAYMENTS WILL BE ACCEPTED INTO THE FUND SINCE THEY ARE NO LONGER IAM EMPLOYEES. THIS IS WHAT THEY STATED DURING THE IBT DRIVE AT USAirways. Contractually AA will have to figure out along with the IAM and AMFA how the money that is promised to the LUS guys will be distributed to each of them. The current pension funds They can't lose so AGAIN that will have to be addressed as to how those funds will be set aside since NO-ONE CAN TAKE YOUR PENSION. If you read the current contract the IAM medical plan is phased out over the next few years in some way or another. The ASSociation also put language in the contract saying if you change representation you will lose it all. That is challengeable in the courts.

The reality is, amfa is a weak organization that does not have the strength and resources to take on the largest airline on the planet. According to its latest financial report, amfa has a total of $2.2 million. To fight an airline like American, which has tens of billions of annual revenues, you need a lot more than a couple of million in the bank.
Our Union Dues will STOP going into the TWU coffers and go to AMFA so with that said Money will Not be a Factor.

Also, amfa has the distinction of being the industry leader in negotiating contracts that allow the absolute most aircraft maintenance work to be outsourced. Their irresponsible agreements have caused the greatest reduction of Mechanic and Related workers in the history of the industry. To compare, there are about SIX TIMES more mechanics per aircraft at American Airlines (due to the best scope language in the industry) than Southwest Airlines, where amfa represents only 2,700 members, out of their total membership at all their carriers of approximately 3,500 members. And, TWU-IAM Association members enjoy better pay, better benefits and better working conditions.

In the 2003 AMFA Organizers Failure as they put it since it is the employees NOT AMFA. we had approx 19k TWU M&R employees. How many do we have NOW? Approx 12k so that means that the TWU has lost 6k members why don't they explain those loses?

This filing follows the failed 2013 attempt by amfa to raid American Airlines –an effort that was firmly rejected by the NMB.

There was an attempt by the AMFA Organizers here at AA to get enough cards to bring AMFA here But as you ALL Remember the TWU brought in the IBT to dilute the number of cards then they the IBT filed cards before the AMFA organizers could get to Washington with the collected cards. So the NMB said we were to Late since AA had given the NMB the list required and that is why they denied the cards, so there was NO Filing.

With the uncertainty that our industry faces today, to be represented by a weak, poorly resourced association like amfa is downright dangerous.

And, amfa has a long and documented history of failures:

Lets go back into History, How many bk filing did Continental have? what did the IAM represented M&R workers lose in those?
How many times has United filed for BK, and they were represented by the IAM as well. What happened to the M&R workers there?
How about the USAirways M&R workers what did they lose under the IAM each time that happened?
What happened to the stock and other benefits I as ONE of the EASTERN Airlines M&R work group?
How about the Pension and lack of wage earning potential the TWA guys lost over a 15 year min. time frame while AGAIN under the IAM
What happened to the M&R guys at PanAm since they were twu, what did they lose?

•Due to massive outsourcing and poor representation, United Airlines mechanic and related workers decertified amfa in 2008, after only five years of bad representation and over 6 thousand jobs lost to outsourcing.

"YES" AMFA was voted out at United during a BK filing at UAL and a RAID by the IBT when UAL had opened and subsequently closed the Newly built maintenance base in INDY. The IBT promised to force UAL to re-open the base and get all the jobs Back. That Did NOT HAPPEN. And since UAL guys have collected AMFA cards and created a union to attempt to bring new representation to the M&R work group. ALTA is the name of that Union.

•amfa has lost all heavy maintenance, plant maintenance, and cleaning since their raid at Alaska Airlines.

The TWU has let AA reduce the number of mechanics in Tulsa the biggest to the low point it is at today, How did that Happen I wonder?

•Since 2004, amfa went from representing close to 20,000 mechanic and related members to about 3,500 in 2020.

As I stated above AA went from 19k M&R employees to approx 12k just at AA have them give you the numbers they have lost thoughout the Industry as they have supplied amfa's numbers?

•amfa negotiated contracts allowed for such a high level of outsourcing that, in a 48 month period, mechanic and related headcount at Northwest Airlines decreased from 10,000 to 3,800.

•amfa led the 3,800 remaining on the famed “suicide strike” at Northwest Airlines. Because of amfa’s go it alone philosophy, and their refusal to allow members to vote on offers that had the potential to save their members jobs, the strike was broken and not a single amfa member returned to work.

NO Union goes on strike without a VOTE by its membership, the NWA guys voted, stuck, and lost it all just like the Eastern guys did AMFA didn't put them out of business they did that on their own, since the IAM SCABBED AND CROSSED THE PICKET LINE. Pilots and F/A did as well.

•amfa then voluntarily waived the white flag at Northwest and gave up its certification.

"YES" That is correct they did that since Delta took over and in order for the process of money due the AMFA represented M&R workgroup AMFA had to decertify so that there would be no Union vote at Delta and the process of money due the AMFA guys would get to them in a more speedy way.
( round about way of putting it all ) There is more to the process but since I don't have all the details that is what I recall.

•At Ozark Airlines, amfa’s finances were so bad it had to borrow money from its members.
•At Ozark, amfa subverted its own constitution and signed numerous letters of agreement without its members’ consent.

TOO Long ago and I have nothing to add to this ask some of the TWA guys who are still here at AA what happened at Ozark?

•When the IAM won representation rights following the merger of Ozark and TWA, amfa abandoned their offices without paying the bill. Then amfa left their loyal supporters with a $9,000 bill and never bothered to show in court to answer the charges. As a result,the court handed down a $15,000 judgement against amfa.

If You or anyone doesn't pay your bills you will be taken to court so WHAT?

•In every case, amfa’s first order of business is to shed any worker that is not an aircraft mechanic. They cozy up to management and sacrifice these members, weaken their bargaining power and get nothing meaningful in return. This is the most despicable trait of their anti-union history amfa will lie about, then live up to.

This is a BIG LIE, if you go to SWA contract book as well as Alaska's contract you will see that here we call them Title 2 they are still in the contract and PROTECTED BY AMFA. What has the ASSOCIATION Done this time with our Title 2 guys, what is happening with the work they did throughout all the years ?

These are just a few examples of amfa’s failures. There are many more.

Since I started in the industry in the 1970's I will start there at one point the INDUSTRY was represented about 85% by the IAM all of those represented carries for the most part are GONE, what happened to ALL of those IAM workers and what did they LOSE as each went under and what deals were made at the end of each of those carriers to save benefits and jobs so did the IAM KISS the Behind of Management as well?

Every TWU-IAM Association member should be very wary of the “amfa promise” because it has never been kept. In reality, by continually sacrificing SCOPE -rather than fighting management -amfa has cost thousands of mechanic and related workers their jobs in the airline industry and those left behind have suffered because of that.

Some One from Tulsa will have to put a Name to this BUT who was the leader of the Local who made a Video that we will getum next time we are going to dig deep into their pockets, Did the TWU ever do that "NO"

The TWU-IAM Association stands ready to defend American Airlines mechanic and related workers from the devastation to you and your family that amfa representation promises to bring.

The TWU/IAM stands ready sure to take your DUES and give you crap in return, They are going to put out as much stuff as they can do discredit AMFA in any way they Can. Other than AA and its M&R workgroup who does the TWU represent in the M&R class and craft? You all know this is about your dues money sincce we are the highest paid members within the TWU ranks so for us to switch they will lose Millions of Dollars. That is the only Reason they are concerned about our class and Craft.

Sorry this became so lengthy But I wanted to address each of the ambiguities the ASSOCIATION put out about History in our industry.

Most all the info posted about AMFA from the Asso is completely false and made up info.
I will only address a couple of them.
For one the 2.2 million they claim is all the money AMFA has is completely false. Hell, that's an amount in just one of our local's accounts.
Another false comment was that AMFA nego or allowed the most outsourcing. WRONG! In SWA's case AMFA inherited the contract nego language that the teamsters nego for over 30 years at SWA, it was the teamsters that nego that original amount of outsourcing NOT AMFA. (Pls note that it was also the IAM at SWA before the teamsters that nego the original first contracts at SWA)
And just look our far back they have to go, my Lord, some of that stuff they brought up happened so many years ago that no one remembers what really happened so they just made up some crap and thru it out there.
Do your homework fellas, it's all just scare tactics as they will say anything to stop AMFA from getting in.
The reasons they will fight so hard on this one is because when the TWU/IAM is removed from mechanic representation at AA that will be the last left airline mechanic representation they had left, it will put the nail in the coffin of them representing airline mechanics everywhere, a hard hit to their existence indeed.

 

[swamt]

I think it’s not fair to Twu to say they allowed AFW to close. What is more accurate is that we took concessions in 2003 to save OH in TAESL MCI AFW TUL and DWH, only to see TAESL AFW MCI all close and TUL to be cut in half.



Another thing not mentioned 17 years of concession contract ( worst in industry) let’s not forget this current contract is worse then the one we had in 2003, and the twu allowed us to lose a week of vacation we earned in 2002 to be taken away in 2003. Then this current contract favors IAM members despite the fact the fact they were forced into association without a vote either. Plus we don’t have as much vacation as UAL or as much pay as SWA FEDEX UPS UAL all this while working at largest airline in the world.

Good points. All true. So how can they post that they have the "industry leading contract"? They even said their represented mechanics make highest pay. WRONG again. SWA is at the top for passenger airlines, UPS is at the top for cargo airlines with FedEx right behind them, and even UAL is paid more. just more examples of flat out lies...

 

[swamt]

That kind of thinking is why we are in this messed up Association. Keep drinking the Kool Aid. The TWU has done nothing to advance the Title 1 or 2's. The TWU use the Title 1 and 2's to bring all the other Title groups up.

Let's also not forget, even prior to the Asso. when TWU represented all AA, and how many times did they "AGREE" with all the company demands and cave to all their ask in concessions NEVER putting up a single fight as AMFA is currently doing at it's represented carriers where they have responded a resounding "NO" to any ant concessions in pay or bennies, where as the TWU/IAM/Asso has in fact "agreed" to concessions for over 3 plus decades at AA, UAL, US Air and other TWU and IAM represented carriers.
Let them keep posting memos, like I said their own propaganda machine will help the AMFA drive and they are proving it with their very first memo after the weekend filing.

 

[Rogallo]

Sounds like you Eastern guys are not that bright.

It ain't just them.

Do your homework fellas

But....but....but.....that's too hard!

I like being spoon fed instead!

 

[Vortilon]

With all due respect, the AMFA may want to find another member to argue the above points made by IAM/TWU. In no fan of any union, but your bold text responses are sooooo weak. Sounds more like politician talking points during a debate. You better come with better bullet point arguments than those.

Most of the people on this board have been posting on here for over 10 years. Myself, I go back to the Mechanic boards during the 90s. Have seen the TWUs best material on anti AMFA rhetoric, and then completely shot it down. This time, there will be a vote, and the Association will be losing about $1 million in dues per month once the election is over. There is no enthusiasm for the Association.

 

[Kev3188]

The-mechanic.com?

 

[aafsc]

That kind of thinking is why we are in this messed up Association. Keep drinking the Kool Aid. The TWU has done nothing to advance the Title 1 or 2's. The TWU use the Title 1 and 2's to bring all the other Title groups up.

That’s what the AMFA mechanics said at NW before they were tossed off the property and quickly replaced while the “other groups” maintained their positions and pay. Southwest’s “other groups” do very well without being in the same union as the mechanics. This notion that the “other groups” need the mechanics is a fallacy. Historically, what happened at EA and CO (first bk) provide additional evidence of this falsehood.