Amfa Informational Meeting
- Thread starter Hackman
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aafsc said:
And all 900 are guaranteed a job in their system if they so choose. The only layoffs to date that this was not the case was with the force majuer for 9/11 and Iraq war. All other layoffs, the option was there for them to bump. Many instead took a much higher AMFA negotiated severance than what we are offered and bailed out.
BTW...why do you never talk about the now over 6,000 AMT's on the street at AA since 2001? Our numbers do exceed NWA in job loss.
Yes, as you state there has been substantial job loses for AA AMTs. I admit that and also I have no love for the TWU and the IAM. As far as the number of AA AMTs gone compared to the number of NW AMTs gone, again, you are correct there are more AA AMTs gone. But don't forget AA is much larger than NW and had many more mechanics to begin with (AA had about 17,000 and NW had about 10,000). The difference between AA and NW is that AA does all of it's airframes and engines inhouse as to where NW farms out most of it's airframes and powerplants. AA laid off AMTs because of the planes they parked in the desert as NW is laying off because they are retiring 30 aircraft. My point is that both unions are powerless and that AMFA is not the magic bullet that some think it is. The TWU, IAM, and AMFA have all had massive layoffs. The IAM and TWU gave wage and other concessions. AMFA WILL give concessions at NW and UA. Even Delle himself was quoted as saying "Nobody can stem the tide of concessions." I support the the AMTs in their efforts to defend their profession. I just don't think AMFA is the answer. Why don't you AA AMTs get an independent union like the AA pilots or AA flight attendants? Bring back ALMA (Air Line Mechanics Association). This was the union representing the AA AMTs before the TWU showed up. Between 11,000 AA AMTs, you should be able to raise enough money to fund your own union with very competent attorneys. You don't need to have attorneys in the ranks like the AA flight attendants as another poster stated. It seems to me that for the amount of money that AMFA national gets from it's members, they sure don't get their moneys worth.AMFAMAN said:
aafsc,
The thought of going it alone like the pilots and F/A's has been tossed around through the years. The problem being is the upstart money. It has taken an alot of money to get to this point, mostly through donations. AMFA National stepped up and funded a law suit just to allow us to pass out cards in Tulsa. We would of never been able to fund this type of suit on our own; t-shirt money just doesn't go that far. Could we do it alone, sure we could. Is it worth it, in the eyes of those on the floor, not really. Most everyone I've talked to wants all mechanics in one union and under the AMFA style constitution. Not sure why it would be worth it going alone when under AMFA the membership can actually change our leadership and our constitution if need be.
The thought of going it alone like the pilots and F/A's has been tossed around through the years. The problem being is the upstart money. It has taken an alot of money to get to this point, mostly through donations. AMFA National stepped up and funded a law suit just to allow us to pass out cards in Tulsa. We would of never been able to fund this type of suit on our own; t-shirt money just doesn't go that far. Could we do it alone, sure we could. Is it worth it, in the eyes of those on the floor, not really. Most everyone I've talked to wants all mechanics in one union and under the AMFA style constitution. Not sure why it would be worth it going alone when under AMFA the membership can actually change our leadership and our constitution if need be.
You're missing the point, I'm not saying that AA will immediately file for bankruptcy, but you're in a terrible position to negeotiate. Its not about "throwing your nuts on the chopping block," its about economics. The AMFA leadership isn't stupid, they're not out to save the craft, it all about the dues. Clearly their strategy is different that the TWU's, the AMFA is willing to sacrafice some jobs for higher wages, while the TWU protects more jobs at a lower rate. Maybe higher pay and fewer jobs is what the AMTs want, but if you think the AMFA is going to ride into town and show AA who is boss you are mistaken. They're going to "work with AA" just like the TWU is now.
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
DECISION 2007 said:
How can you compare the facts with "rants"? When you say change do you mean accept lies and spin from both the company and twu?
When we get AMFA at AA the deck will not be reshuffled the entire deck will be replaced. And this deck will not be marked.
How do I see AA staying competitive while keeping O/H? You miss the point of why you are even asking this question. It was the twu that initiated the lowering of our profession with the osm program which in turn caused other airlines to follow suit. Can you answer why it was the iam NOT AMFA that allowed NWA and UAL to send work overseas? No, you can't.
I understand that AA does not have an unending supply of cash. But to stay afloat I do not agree with the company's stance that their employees are over paid. At negotiations the company was told to lay people off and shrink the airline and keep the contract intact. The company said they could not do that. So the twu swallowed the lies and accepted concessions to save jobs. Only to have lay offs and shrink the airline. The morale is in the crapper and will take years to return.
The ONLY smoke and mirror routine is that generated by the twu. That's a fact. If you think little made a fool out of me you should seek medical attention. I do not have a vendetta against the twu. I simply want the best for my craft and the twu doesn't come close to being able to give my profession what is needed.
Dell has given my profession the ability to take control of our future. He does that with a craft union that believes in the opposite of everything the twu stands for.
NewHampshire Black Bears
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- Aug 20, 2002
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Oneflyer said:
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Oneflyer;
(IMHO) If AMFA gets in at AA, AA WILL NOT take a strike, WILL cave into AMFA, and recoup it's loses via every other work group, minus the F/A's, now that THB is prez.
The chance of AMFA "gettin in" will always be a "photo finish", thanx in part to a bunch of GOP voting, kool aid drinkin, good ol' boys from "Okie-Homa' !!
If AMFA does get in(and I hope they do), it will probably mean higher pay, and less AMT's, similiar to NW !!!
FWAAA,
Before WN ever got to the point to "cry poor mouth" to It's employee's, you can "bet your bippy" that carriers like US,UA, DL have joined other carriers like PA, EA, BN, TW !!!!!!!!
I stand by my "challenge TO ANYONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!
"AA, NW, and WN WILL NEVER see the inside walls of a BK coutroom"
All anyone has to do, to get me singing 2 octaves HIGHER, is to prove me wrong !!
NH/BB's
Ken you don't seem to get it. We're not defending the TWU. I don't care and I seriously doubt AA management cares what union you have represent you. It doesn't change the economics of the situation, once the AMFA gets in here they'll be saying the same thing as the TWU.
The problem here is that you WANT to believe that the AMFA is better, you want to believe that AA cut too much and that changing unions will bring that back, ultimately that desire clouds the truth that it really doesn't matter. The company is going to cut costs, whether that is with wages or work rule changes or just straight layoffs its going to happen, the only thing a union can do is help decide which one its going to be.
The problem here is that you WANT to believe that the AMFA is better, you want to believe that AA cut too much and that changing unions will bring that back, ultimately that desire clouds the truth that it really doesn't matter. The company is going to cut costs, whether that is with wages or work rule changes or just straight layoffs its going to happen, the only thing a union can do is help decide which one its going to be.
Oneflyer said:
Too bad the logic of your post will be ignored and you'll subsequently be insulted and villified for having an opinion that differs with theirs.
I don't agree with everything you post on this board, Oneflyer, but you hit the nail right on the head on this one.
I know it's not exactly this simple, but if oil was still $35-40/bbl we wouldn't be having this conversation. We'd have thread after thread of "where's my snapback", which I'd probably be in favor of.
While I am no defender of upper management, there are some things that are out of their control. However, for alot of people on this board, it's a helluva lot easier to point the finger at AA mgmt, the TWU, OPEC, Dubya, take your pick. (or put all of them together for a convenient conspiracy theory
)Its all dollars and cents and comparing AAR's pay scale with AA's only completes a small part of the equation. The question has been asked by several mechanics to the twu and AA management alike to give us the numbers on what it costs for inhouse heavy C checks verses what it would cost to outsource. We get the same answer from both sides the twu and AA alike, (We don't know!)DECISION 2007 said:
The people that work in overhaul are begging for an answer to these questions. Comparing payscales is total bullshat. Turn times and depth of maintenance between inhouse and outsourced work are key factors so don't over simplify the scenario by just using wages.
Overhaul personal are tired of having their backs against the wall with threats of cheaper maintenance by outsourcing and in turn are starting to ask more specific questions about their competitors costs verses our own. The personal in finance should have these answers, after all, how many years have we been in the maintenance buisness?
Now they want us to bring in 500 million in contract work but we don't even know how much it cost to do our own, whats up with that? How are we going to bid this work if we can't even cost out the work we do for ourselves? I hope all the (we don't know) responses are a collaboration between AA and their lap dog union because if its honest answers than were all in a heap of stink brother.
No union can keep work on the property if were not cost competitive especially with the current language we have in our scope clause so i'm not under the illusion that if AMFA were on the premises that our work would be safe if we were indeed more costly than outsourcing. But I do feel confident that we could at least get valid numbers on cost comparisons between inhouse verses outsourcing so then we would know in black and white what our battle ground to keeping work inhouse would be.
Something about the local 514 pres. having a pajama party and establishing a bedfellow relationship with the company doesn't build alot of confidence or trust with most of the union personal. Most agree that a working buisness relationship between the company and all the unions are important and necessary for the success of the airline but the bed wetting between the twu and the company is really starting to sour!!!
- Aug 20, 2002
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Oneflyer said:
I do not believe that any union can repair the damage that the TWU has caused the Airline Industry in the near future. However the structual changes that an entity such as AMFA would be the beginning of reversing this twenty year trend of concessions.
Question: Why does the TWU grant concessions when the airline is making money or losing money?
Wretched Wrench
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- Apr 21, 2003
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NewHampshire Black Bears said:
Perhaps not. However AA sure got a lot of mileage out of the courthouse steps. Be prepared for a repeat performance.
.
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
Oneflyer said:
Oneflyer,
I do get it. I never said that AMFA was a "silver bullet". I do care which union represents me. I also believe that AA would prefer to negotiate with the twu instead of AMFA when it concerns AMTs. Why? Because the structure of the twu allows the twu to do as they wish at the company's request with no accountability.
The economics will remain the same when AMFA comes on the property. If AA wants to outsource o/h they will do it. But under AMFA the AMTs will not take it sitting down. Again, they are no silver bullet but they are a better weapon to arm our skilled craft with over that of the twu. AMFA will inform their members with the truth and the members will decide. I can guarantee you that AMFA will not peddle/promote concessions with threats of the company filing bk nor will they have a vote where a person can change their ballot from YES to NO to YES, etc.
What I want to believe is that our profession will stop the slow decay that has been permitted by the industrial unions that represented both the skilled & unskilled. Plain and simple. I KNOW AA cut too much. I see it every night I go to work. And I hear it every time I speak with another AMT at a different city. Changing unions will NOT bring back what was stolen from us. I never claimed that. What I have said is that the environment will NOT improove with the twu representing AMTs at AA.
What amazes me is the blind (stupid ?) trust that the twu paid officials have to an organization that has a track record of concessions both in good and bad financial times. The very idea of having an INDUSTRIAL union represent skilled and unskilled should be an indication that that organization will fail to represent one of the two groups. My "desire" does not cloud the facts. I see and understand the facts as they appear for what they actually are. Unlike the twu faithful who cling to the thin hope that if they repeat a lie long enough it will become fact.
Oneflyer, let me ask you a question. If AMFA is so bad, as the twu supporting alias using posters claim why did the company and twu fight so hard to prevent an election between AMFA & the twu? If the twu is as strong and able to defend our profession they should be able to stand on their own merits and defeat AMFA hands down. Right? If AMFA is indeed the "evil" the twu supporting alias using posters claim why has AMFA not been removed from the eight airlines they have been voted in at?
What it comes down to is this. The AMT profession has woken up and realized that our craft needs to be in a CRAFT union. This union needs to inform the members with the truth and have a true democratic structure. Our craft needs to be able to fight for what is right for the members and not the other way around. Nowhere do I state that we will wake up and this will all be a nasty dream.
DECISION 2007
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- Mar 19, 2004
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As stated earlier Ken, it's all about the dues money, AMFA, TWU, IAM, IBT, they are all concerned about that monthly intake. Do you honestly believe that AA would rather have the TWU than AMFA because of the mean AMFA reputation you seem to think they hold? Accountability? So you believe that because the AMFA REPS CAN BE BOOTED OUT QUICKLY THAT YOU'LL EVER SEE IT? Name one AMFA rep in any AMFA local, that has lost his job, internationally or not , due to a democratic vote. This is the one item you continually throw out, is it really used by AMFA as much as it is used by AMFA's organizers? Without bashing AMFA, Ken, AMFA really hasn't gained to hell of a lot for any airline it currently reps, now has it? They have done what? Extended a contract, they have gone from the "NO CONCESSIONS" stance to a much more humble stance.
All unions have their strong points and their weaknesses. The unions are not our current problem within our profession. The cost of crude oil and the cut throat antics of competing airlines combined with the outsourcing is our downfall. The TWU, IAM , IBT, AMFA, will not see a return of the union power afforded in the 60's or the 70's. There have been way to many other factors thrown into play, such as the continual decline of union membership...what are we now? 13% or so?
I believe this Ken, I believe the TWU does do way to many pajama parties and cocktail get togethers with the company...but so would your AMFA elected officials...AA would laugh them into court. There is no "win" scenerio with AA.
All unions have their strong points and their weaknesses. The unions are not our current problem within our profession. The cost of crude oil and the cut throat antics of competing airlines combined with the outsourcing is our downfall. The TWU, IAM , IBT, AMFA, will not see a return of the union power afforded in the 60's or the 70's. There have been way to many other factors thrown into play, such as the continual decline of union membership...what are we now? 13% or so?
I believe this Ken, I believe the TWU does do way to many pajama parties and cocktail get togethers with the company...but so would your AMFA elected officials...AA would laugh them into court. There is no "win" scenerio with AA.
