Amfa Informational Meeting

[AAmech]

AAmech, and you have a selective memory. AMFA set the bar in 2001, and your twu couldn't match it. :unsure: YOU KNOW IT, AND I KNOW IT.

[post="262000"][/post]​

Sorry to bust your bubble but it was the former UAL CEO Jim Goodwin who are responsible for setting the new bar. He agreed to give the UAL pilots a 30% pay increase to make his merger with USair go thru. This resulted in EVERYONEs bar rising by 30%+! Thanks JIM!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Sorry to bust your bubble but it was the former UAL CEO Jim Goodwin who are responsible for setting the new bar. He agreed to give the UAL pilots a 30% pay increase to make his merger with USair go thru. This resulted in EVERYONEs bar rising by 30%+! Thanks JIM!!!

[post="262025"][/post]​

Oh really? Tell that to stores and Title III. Their raises were not nearly 30%.

So Pilots and mechanics saw much bigger raises, other work groups did not do nearly as well.

Explain the fact that just prior to AMFA coming on the property, after the UAL pilots got their raise the IAM didnt bring back no where near what AMFA got at NWA?

 

[AAmech]

You truely are an idiot by saying AMFA damaged MY craft. You aren't an AMT. What wouldn't hurt would be for twu supporting cowards such as yourself to admit the twu is NOT democratic nor are they held accountable for their sellout actions. Why don't you also admit that the iam was the one who negotiated the "damage" you speak about?

AMFA supporters aren't "bashing" other unions. We are simply pointing out the DAMAGE these other industrial unions have cause MY craft & profession.

Tell me now coward, when will we get our FULL REVOTE? LOL!

[post="261997"][/post]​

I know this upsets you but I'll avoid calling you names. I do think your opinions are PAINFULLY naive. And frankly how "democratic" the TWU is is of little concern to me. As bad as things are in this industry I don't need to be represented by the amatures who have negotiated loophole riddled contracts at NWA and AS! :down:

 

[AAmech]

Oh really? Tell that to stores and Title III. Their raises were not nearly 30%.

So Pilots and mechanics saw much bigger raises, other work groups did not do nearly as well.

Explain the fact that just prior to AMFA coming on the property, after the UAL pilots got their raise the IAM didnt bring back no where near what AMFA got at NWA?

[post="262027"][/post]​

Your timeline is off. It was deep into amfa's negotiations with NWA that Jim Goodwin gave the UAL and the industry its present. The Iam was long gone by then.

 

[Bob Owens]

Your timeline is off.  It was deep into amfa's negotiations with NWA that Jim Goodwin gave the UAL and the industry its present.  The Iam was long gone by then.

[post="262029"][/post]​

Ok, then how come the AFL-CIO affiliated IAM didnt set the pace when they had the chance after all the industry was showing record profits when they brought back the TA that got them booted out of Maintenance and related?

Why would pilots pay raise the bar for mechanics? It never did in the past. Even when the TWU got us the "Me Too"clause.


Explain the fact that you said that EVERYONE's bar rose by 30% when in fact the majority of TWU members did not see such increases.

Pete Holowczyck(RIP) said that during the 2001 negotiations the International compared AA stock clerks to what other stock clerks made, not what the UAL pilots got, and that since they were making what everyone else was getting that was the reason why Stores saw one of the smallest increases.

If the UAL pilots are responsible for raising the bar for mechanics then how come it didnt have the same effect on everyone else?

During the 2001 contract the UAL pilots were never used for comparasion, AMFA at NWA was.

Maybe a more accurate description of what occured was that those groups where craft unions existed did better than groups that did not have craft unions in existance. Nearly all the pilots belong to craft unions, they did the best. Flight attendants have craft unions and even where they are in Industrial unions they are organized more like craft unions, such as at SWA where they are completely seperate and have control over their contract. Mechanics are split between a craft union and industrial unions. All mechanics benifitted from AMFAs existance because the Industrial unions were forced to match AMFA or lose their mechanics. However Fleet service and stores do not have any options other than industrial unions and they did much worse than the pilots, Flight attendants and mechanics.

So it goes to show that just the presence of craft unions that are specific to a profession is a benifit to those in that profession. At the very least it can be said that union members benifit when there is a true rival organization that could take their members if the incumbant fails to perform. Those that are stuck in business unions like the TWU who have no real options for representation do the worst because the union does not fear losing them.

 

[AAmech]

Well your argument does have some merit as we all know the Alaska mechanics certainly didn't get a 30% increase! Which is puzzling since this is where the "craft union" amfa has had its LONGEST tenure.

And how everyone benifits from having amfa around is beyond me! Its more like we're being PUNISHED becasuse now OUR management expects our unions to match the amfa concecessions!

 

[Bob Owens]

Well your argument does have some merit as we all know the Alaska mechanics certainly didn't get a 30% increase!   Which is puzzling since this is where the "craft union" amfa has had its LONGEST tenure. 

And how everyone benifits from having amfa around is beyond me!  Its more like we're being PUNISHED becasuse now OUR management expects our unions to match the amfa concecessions!

[post="262040"][/post]​

What AMFA concessions? So far all the concessions have been put in place by either the TWU or the IAM.


You made the statement that everyone saw a 30+% increase after the UAL pilots got their raise when in fact our Stores and Title III guys earn less than they were in 2001 even though they only took a 14% paycut. So our guys obviously did not see a 30% increase.

You keep harping on Alaska but the fact is that Alaska is smaller than Eagle, and Eagle mechanics make less than Alaska mechanics. The fact is I dont know how much of a raise they saw between their first AMFA contract and their IAM contract. But there has not been a filing to go back to the IAM has there?

Over 9000 mechanics filled out cards to leave the TWU. The only reason why we are still here is because of collusion between the TWU and the company to pad the list.

You also ignore the fact that the highest paid mechanics in the industry are AMFA represented SWA. I know, the IBT got them that, but right after they did the mechanics there voted them out and replaced them with AMFA. So despite ILC wages the mechanics still chose to be in a craft union.

 

[scorpion]

Your obviously confused. Amfa is the outfit that has endless card drives. Most unions are too busy trying to serve their members. Instead of pissing away more money and time on ANOTHER card drive Amfa should be using their time, energy and money working to help their existing members. It sure would'nt hurt to work on their contract writing skills to undo the damage they've inflicted on OUR craft! If they did these things maybe there would be a day where the amfa supporters could stand up proudly and point to their accomplishments instead of just bashing other unions and running from their record.

[post="261971"][/post]​

I guess its okay to piss away 2.3 million bucks on an unwanted union hall though! How about showing some good will and make a motion to donate this money to help our laid off members in some way.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Since when is commiting to $500 million in increased revenue a concession?
You AMFA guys need to come to grips with a couple of things:

1. If you think a new union is going to be able to change much of anything you are a fool. All you're going to do is reshuffle the deck, maybe you can get higher wages for increased productivity, meaning fewer AMTs doing the same amount work. AMFA can't Bring back the good old days, stop kidding yourself.

2. Is that are to comprehend that in March '03 oil was at about half of what it is today and that commitments that were made were based on the idea that oil would stay about the same price? Meaning that you weren't lied to, but things changed and AA had to adjust their plans. I this really that difficult of a concept?

3. You can't fight a company losing money. AA will just declare bankruptcy and have the contract thrown out. Then everyone will lose there jobs and what will you have accomplished? Keep in mind that 99% of people are more interested in feeding their family than defending a profession.

[post="262006"][/post]​

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oneflyer,

I'll make this as simple(for you) as possible.

Quote;
3. "You can't fight a company losing money, AA will just declare bankruptcy......"

After AMFA got into NW, they DID'NT declare bankruptcy, and if AA/AMT's get AMFA in, AA WON'T either !!!!!!!!

SO, oneflyer, here's the challenge to you, and ANYBODY ELSE out there , lurking, active, very active, or otherwise.

"I DARE ANYBODY OUT THERE TO PROVE ME WRONG" !!!!!

AA,NW, and WN will "NEVER" see the walls of a BK courtroom, "NEVER" !!!!!!!!!!!

Now Oneflyer, I've really put my NUTS on "the chopping block" !!!!!!!!!!!

All ANYONE has to do to, to "castrate" me, is to PROVE ME WRONG !!

I repeat, "AA,NW, and WN will "NEVER" see the inside of a BK courtroom" !!!!!!!!!!


GO AMFA.


NH/BB's

 

[FWAAA]

After AMFA got into NW, they DID'NT declare bankruptcy, and if AA/AMT's get AMFA in, AA WON'T either !!!!!!!!

SO, oneflyer, here's the challenge to you, and ANYBODY ELSE out there , lurking, active, very active, or otherwise.

"I DARE ANYBODY OUT THERE TO PROVE ME WRONG" !!!!!

AA,NW, and WN will "NEVER" see the walls of a BK courtroom, "NEVER" !!!!!!!!!!!

[post="262057"][/post]​

NHBBs, I agree with you as to AA and WN, but I'm not as sure about NW.

I think oneflyer's point about AA filing Ch 11 and abrogating the contract is in response to a belief that AMFA will somehow keep AA from imposing any more concessions; I've posted before that it is only a matter of time before WN approaches its employees and confesses that it "needs" some paycuts. If there truly is a "race to the bottom," then how can WN be immune from that marketplace reality?

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

I know this upsets you but I'll avoid calling you names. I do think your opinions are PAINFULLY naive. And frankly how "democratic" the TWU is is of little concern to me. As bad as things are in this industry I don't need to be represented by the amatures who have negotiated loophole riddled contracts at NWA and AS! :down:

[post="262028"][/post]​

Did I call you a name? You're the one behind the alias. I am not "naive". I am not blind. I can see and understand things for what they are. You support unaccountability and you don't support democracy.

You willingness to accept the twu's undemocratic ways again speaks volumes for your lack of resolve and ability to change what is wrong. It is interesting to read your posts and how you can distort the truth and facts. The international has a good man/woman in you.

 

[DECISION 2007]

AMFA followers will continue to scream the same old slogans, the TWU will again fight the drive, and life goes on with the gutting of our work and benefits...

Ken, thx for proving my point. Your chants never change, but the industry that your profession resides in is, you need to change accordingly or be left behind.

Oneflyer hit the nail on the head...you may get AMFA in to simply reshuffle the BS. Ken, answer me this brother, how do you see American Airlines ability to stay competitive with the other top airlines while retaining their major O/H inhouse? Does AA simply have a never ending cash supply? AAR if offerring what...$18/hr for A&P's? AA pays what? AMFA can keep AA from requesting, and gaining , additional concessions to stay afloat? I won't call you a fool Ken, but I think your reasoning is foolish. The other AMFA repped airlines are outsourcing all major O/H, that's a fact Ken, regardless of who lead who where.

Are you willing to promise your 9,000 card signers no concessions in the future Ken...what does AMFA have to offer AA mechs besides your "democratic vote" smoke and mirrors...let me help ya here Ken...NOTHING! I think Jim Little make such an idiot out of you that you have a vendetta of sorts against the TWU...it definately cannot be anything Delle has offerred you, or could it be?

 

[aafsc]

According to people on another website (amfanuts.com) NW today announced another 675 layoffs in MSP. According to one poster only 2000 NWA AMTs out of the origional 10,000 will still be employed by NWA by July.

 

[AMFAMAN]

According to people on another website (amfanuts.com) NW today announced another 675 layoffs in MSP. According to one poster only 2000 NWA AMTs out of the origional 10,000 will still be employed by NWA by July.

[post="262144"][/post]​

Your source says it all...amfanuts.com. According them, AMFA was on the property when the UAL concessions happened 2 years ago. Can't put much credibility into known liars.

 

[aafsc]

Your source says it all...amfanuts.com. According them, AMFA was on the property when the UAL concessions happened 2 years ago. Can't put much credibility into known liars.

[post="262149"][/post]​

They were not talking about UAL, they were talking about NW. If NW will be down to 2000 AMTs in July that is bad news because they will have not have the numbers to be effective in the event of a strike and therefore can easily be replaced. Perhaps that was the plan all along. As others have posted, it seems that NW management discovered that AMFA will give up scope and job protection language in exchange for higher hourly wages. Then over the course of the contract they can contractually get rid of a vast majority of their AMTs and the few that are remaining can be replaced if they don't submit to wage concessions. NW management was willing to go through short term pain (higher hourly wages) for long term gain (ridding themselves of the NW AMTs for all eternity). As far as they saw it, it was an investment in the future.

As far as UAL goes you are right. The IAM negotiated the last contract. BUT since AMFA complained about it they could have just NOT cooperated with UAL in bankruptcy court which would have led to that ENTIRE IAM contract being thrown out. AMFA should have welcomed this and then proceed to negotiate a 100% AMFA negotiated contract. Why did they not do this?