AFA Labor Relations Thread 12/30-
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galley princess
Senior
- Nov 4, 2007
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I don't disagree with any of it, but I'd like to know where the union is on the 3+30 being docked from reserves.
A STATE OF EMERGENCY IS A STATE OF EMERGENCY. NO ONE ON THE ROADS UNLESS YOU'RE FIRST RESPONDERS.
This is easy stuff. What the hell?
Unfortunately it has to be grieved before anyone can sue them.
Not to rain on anyone's parade but keep your eye on the date folks. It's Feb 2010. Our contract is amendable in 2011. I for one am not voting for anything but a marked improvement. The closer we get to the amendment date the harder my resolve. They're not robbing me of a decent contract by coming in with something mediocre so close to the amendable time.
A STATE OF EMERGENCY IS A STATE OF EMERGENCY. NO ONE ON THE ROADS UNLESS YOU'RE FIRST RESPONDERS.
This is easy stuff. What the hell?
Unfortunately it has to be grieved before anyone can sue them.
Not to rain on anyone's parade but keep your eye on the date folks. It's Feb 2010. Our contract is amendable in 2011. I for one am not voting for anything but a marked improvement. The closer we get to the amendment date the harder my resolve. They're not robbing me of a decent contract by coming in with something mediocre so close to the amendable time.
beachboy
Veteran
- Jul 7, 2006
- 1,484
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Galley P-
Will you be walking a picket line? Whats the last union meeting any of you attended? And amendable means just that tack on another 3 years for Section 6 and the hole drama. You know as well as I do as it stands now these people care more about a uniform than going to a union meeting! You honestly think they can be unified to walk? AFA has done zippo to prepare them. ZERO ZILTCH NADA!
Will you be walking a picket line? Whats the last union meeting any of you attended? And amendable means just that tack on another 3 years for Section 6 and the hole drama. You know as well as I do as it stands now these people care more about a uniform than going to a union meeting! You honestly think they can be unified to walk? AFA has done zippo to prepare them. ZERO ZILTCH NADA!
These Crew News Sessions simply baffle me.
In the latest PHX session, flight attendants asked when we will replace the AWA bulkheads (), and when we are going cashless, instead of asking some of the questions that really matter:
*When will we have a joint contract? It's been five years. Please give exact details of where the negotiations stand, and offer us a negotiations schedule for the next 6 months. Are you sitting in on the negotiations, Hector? If not, who is, and please provide a bit of a background for us with regards to who is negotiating for the Company.
*Why, Hector, are you implementing a "Quality Assurance" program for Inflight Services, onboard the aircraft, before addressing the serious morale issues, namely due to working under Bankruptcy Era contracts? How about offering us a fair, livable contract, then implementing a Uniform/ Onboard Quality Control Program? Would not it make sense to make your internal customers feel appreciated first, so they can then feel better about taking care of our external customers? Thoughts, Hector?
*Why, after five years, are America West flight attendants still paid less than their East counterparts? Is it amusing to you that while you are saving substantially on labor costs, flight attendants continue to lose their homes, and struggle to put food on the table? You may not hear about it, Hector, but it is happening in increasing numbers, everyday.
* Because East and West are paid differently, does the Company somehow benefit from the infighting and general disdain this disparity creates between the two work groups?
*Do you see a morale issue, and can you attribute it to the fact that flight attendants area the last group (aside from the pilots) to receive their contract, pay raises, and work rule improvements?
*Are you aware that the reserve systems on the East and the West are severely flawed, and why is it that you don't feel the need to expedite a joint contract and do anything about it? Please don't say that something IS being done about it; I again remind you we "merged" five years ago.
*Why are reserves on the East being deducted 3+30 from their guarantee when they can't make it through 40 inches of snow to get to work, and yet the line holders simply have to make up the time? How do I make up my 3+30? Now, my guarantee has been reduced to 69+30? Have you ever tried to drive through 40 inches of snow in the pitch dark at 445am? Where is the general common sense here?
*Why do 85% of the East reserves have vacation in January and February, causing a complete meltdown of the East system during the past three snowstorms? Who designed these vacation matrices, and what type of discipline is he/ she receiving? Will he/ she also be responsible for personally giving me my 3+30 back that was taken from my already paltry guarantee because we were under a State of Emergency in Philadelphia?
*Why is the Company calling me on my vacation to work trips, when they assigned this vacation to me in the first place? I didn't choose it, I received what was left. It was your choice to award me 15 days of vacation in Jan and Feb, not mine. And now, you instruct a sweet voiced crew scheduler to call me to help, and shower me with kindness and gifts, when only two weeks ago I was assigned another trip at the gate after arriving home from a 5 day trip, and this same sweet voiced scheduler was screaming at me to "go to the gate, or else..!"? My, how her attitude changed!
We're humans, not robots. Fix the system. It's been five years.
*I can only speak for the East here, but why is the Company so comfortable with the LTO reserve system? If we had a reserve system where we could actually possibly break guarantee, flight attendants would've been coming out of the woodwork to work trips during the last three storms. Under the LTO system, there is no incentive to work, only to receive guarantee. Hector, are you familiar with the LTO system, and the limits it sets not only on the flight attendants, but Crew Scheduling, when they need us the most? And you still are in no rush to offer us a joint contract with a fair, workable reserve system?
*Why are Inflight Supervisors meeting flights in PHL and assigning the deadheading flight attendants onboard to head out on another turn, or another two day, after they've been away from home for five days already? Why isn't that Inflight Supervisor stepping into a "Stan Herman" tracksuit and heading out on the two day themselves? Heck, the past three times I've been in the Crew Room during the past three snow emergencies, the Inflight doors were locked and closed-- presumably, the Supervisors couldn't make it to work? Granted, it was 6:30am, and the roads were indeed treacherous.....
Make no mistake, I believe that every single employee realizes the financial situation the airline find itself in, and do not expect everything and more. What we do expect is a fair contract, with improvements, after five years, that addresses the severe scheduling, benefit, pay disparity and work rule issues we are enduring. While the bulkheads, trash bags, and cashless cabin delays are issues that need to be dealt with, it would seem that taking care of your employees first would pay dividends to both the Company and our customers, more so than new carpeting on the walls.
While I agree with some of your post, I wonder if we f/as are not to blame for some of this anger and poor morale. In my base, the sups were there throughout the blizzards, boarding flights etc. Wouldn't leave until everyone in the crew room was taken care of. And yes, our PERs are being changed to SCMs. Granted we are a small base and these types of issues are dealt with quickly.
I personally am sick and tired of working with f/as who wear what they want, do whatever service they feel like doing. I wonder why am I wearing the uniform correctly and providing the right service? We don't have any room to bash other departments and personnel when we as a group can't do what we are supposed to do. My going to work and being frustrated has nothing to do with how the company is treating me. It's frustrating to listen to f/as moan and complain all day, do whatever they want and not have to answer to anyone. About time someone like Hector is trying to clean up this act. I picked up a plane the other day and while deplaning, one girl was on her cellphone ignoring all the customers, the other had a snow parka on with no visible id or wings. We look like a bunch of amateurs they picked up off the street.
So what if the uniform is ugly to some. No one is asking anyone to wear it in their "real lives", and so what if you think the customers should get a can, just do the service the way we are supposed to.
And LTO? Those reserves that have no incentive to work and collect guarantee are the loudest voices complaining about living in poverty. Everything this company does to us is because of the little book called the contract, which supposedly no one voted for. AFA was also at that negotiating table. Let's just hope they step up this time and get us a decent contract.
V
VAflyGal
Guest
Many of us RSVs were off property during this BK contract ratification and didn't have a job, much less a voice with what we now have. Quite a few of us are still B-scale and with our guarantee and no big fat per diem check (because we don't fly much), some of us bring home 1200-1300 a month. A MONTH. Flying an extra 2.3 hours for a 2-day split trip in a blizzard is not going to pay for the gas and food required for the pathetic split pairing, yet people like Mr. Back-to-back TLV 200 hours a month flyer man are allowed to continue to fly.
With all due respect to anyone who reads this, unless you have been on THIS reserve systen with LTO for more than 2 or 3 months, really, you have NO IDEA what it's like for us. I MUST work on days off and I have a 2nd job just to make my bills, and I'm still in debt and behind.
Something's gotta give.
Itest, I loved your post. Thank you for the well thought out words. US, you have very good points and it is, indeed an embarrassment.
Hopefully the punative hand will correct some of the issues. Service is so completely inconsistent that it makes me cringe for our passengers. I was working with a lady recently who had a meltdown in the aft galley when she was stocking the cart because the other gal working in back with her gave out cans while she gave out cups. She literally started yelling at the other F/A and then me when I came back to pick up trash, then she said "All you reserves just do whatever the he-- you want." Then came the insults about "the crazy eights" and "neurotic nines."
It's a caste system, this whole place, with an eternal and everlasting glass ceiling.
galley princess
Senior
- Nov 4, 2007
- 384
- 263
Beachboy, I agree that it does seem hopeless. Many of us have moved on and created other lives parallel to the mess at US. Yes, I will walk when the time comes and I will do the CHAOS thing.
I don't think that we'll get there, simply because of the desperation that exists among the reserves. They're going to want to accept anything that is better than what they have now. I don't blame them, I have done LTO and it's hideous. For me it was a message to do a plan B. I flew with a young man, no one but himself to take care of, he lived in base and had little education. He scared the bejesus out of me. If he couldn't see that he needed to clean up his resume then what does it mean? It was like talking to a brick wall. You can be on a beeper and attend Community College. Hell if you get a certificate in plumbing you just made more money than a US F/A.
Take control of your future. Dont let this mess control you.
A merger isn't going to save you and neither will a new contract. Look at the seniority list. THEY AREN'T GOING ANYWHERE. Assess your talents and build a life outside. Then maybe we'll have enough with the strength to face what needs to be faced down or no one will win. The most AWA management is going to give up is some kind of shift system for reserves, a token raise and maybe matching West vacation. They'll throw full sick pay back for the senior mamas. Poof, a new too long contract.
Either way, those who explored other avenues will be better off.
I don't think that we'll get there, simply because of the desperation that exists among the reserves. They're going to want to accept anything that is better than what they have now. I don't blame them, I have done LTO and it's hideous. For me it was a message to do a plan B. I flew with a young man, no one but himself to take care of, he lived in base and had little education. He scared the bejesus out of me. If he couldn't see that he needed to clean up his resume then what does it mean? It was like talking to a brick wall. You can be on a beeper and attend Community College. Hell if you get a certificate in plumbing you just made more money than a US F/A.
Take control of your future. Dont let this mess control you.
A merger isn't going to save you and neither will a new contract. Look at the seniority list. THEY AREN'T GOING ANYWHERE. Assess your talents and build a life outside. Then maybe we'll have enough with the strength to face what needs to be faced down or no one will win. The most AWA management is going to give up is some kind of shift system for reserves, a token raise and maybe matching West vacation. They'll throw full sick pay back for the senior mamas. Poof, a new too long contract.
Either way, those who explored other avenues will be better off.
Galley Princess said it all. Its untenable at US to say the least. WAKE UP - it is NOT going to get better ever. Go find something else to do. The is a whole wonderful world of opportunities outside of the airline industry. Face your fears and go for it. This the time to do, not when u have been there for 30 + years and can't imagine being anything other than a stewardess.
USCREW
Veteran
I love being a stewardess
I think it's patently false to say "the reserves" are so "desperate" the will agree to anything. In fact, I think nothing could be further from the truth.
First and foremost, many of "the reserves" you speak of were not here, or were at MidAtlantic when "you all" voted in the pathetic contract you still work under.
The majority of the F/A posters here and on the Facebook boards are "the reserves." The overwhelming majority of people that show up at local council meeting are "the reserves."
"The reserves" seem to know their own contract and what exists elsewhere more than than the average blockholder. Perhaps because the bar has been set so low for "the reserves", they seem to have much higher ambitions and dealbreakers for Contract 2010 than everyone else who seems to be fine with the status quo. "The reserves" know far too well that being junior at a stagnant airline they will likely never see the benefits of being a "blockholder", so quality of life for them better improve tenfold or they will vote it down.
While there are less of them they are by far more involved and active and will actually vote. They have less to lose overall, as VA pointed out some of them are on B-scale into their tenth year. Most of them have been furloughed and got along fine then without USAir, and would get along fine without them again. Can't say the same for many of the senior-folk, some of whom are completely unemployable and have no savings to speak of. The 'hopeless' and the 'desperate' are coming from the other end of the seniority list IMO.
If a bad contract is voted in, it won't be because of the "desperate reserves", it will be by the same people who voted in the last two: CLT F/As who'd say yes to anything, and PHL F/As who either forgot to vote or are too stupid to understand what they are voting for.
By the way, Reserve Availability Shifts are one section that has already been agreed to by the company and AFA, and it was about a year ago. I guess the "desperate reserves" are more up to date on contract negotiations than you are.
As far as Adler's program, I couldn't agree more with Flyus2. It's downright embarrassing to work with some of these people. The person trying to do the service correctly (what bare bones little there is) shouldn't be the one having to argue their way. Do your f'in job! I don't care what your seniority is or where you commute from, if you've lost the ability to do your job the right way, then you shouldn't be working. There needs to be some sort of accountability!
First and foremost, many of "the reserves" you speak of were not here, or were at MidAtlantic when "you all" voted in the pathetic contract you still work under.
The majority of the F/A posters here and on the Facebook boards are "the reserves." The overwhelming majority of people that show up at local council meeting are "the reserves."
"The reserves" seem to know their own contract and what exists elsewhere more than than the average blockholder. Perhaps because the bar has been set so low for "the reserves", they seem to have much higher ambitions and dealbreakers for Contract 2010 than everyone else who seems to be fine with the status quo. "The reserves" know far too well that being junior at a stagnant airline they will likely never see the benefits of being a "blockholder", so quality of life for them better improve tenfold or they will vote it down.
While there are less of them they are by far more involved and active and will actually vote. They have less to lose overall, as VA pointed out some of them are on B-scale into their tenth year. Most of them have been furloughed and got along fine then without USAir, and would get along fine without them again. Can't say the same for many of the senior-folk, some of whom are completely unemployable and have no savings to speak of. The 'hopeless' and the 'desperate' are coming from the other end of the seniority list IMO.
If a bad contract is voted in, it won't be because of the "desperate reserves", it will be by the same people who voted in the last two: CLT F/As who'd say yes to anything, and PHL F/As who either forgot to vote or are too stupid to understand what they are voting for.
By the way, Reserve Availability Shifts are one section that has already been agreed to by the company and AFA, and it was about a year ago. I guess the "desperate reserves" are more up to date on contract negotiations than you are.
As far as Adler's program, I couldn't agree more with Flyus2. It's downright embarrassing to work with some of these people. The person trying to do the service correctly (what bare bones little there is) shouldn't be the one having to argue their way. Do your f'in job! I don't care what your seniority is or where you commute from, if you've lost the ability to do your job the right way, then you shouldn't be working. There needs to be some sort of accountability!
Furloughd4now
Veteran
Instead of telling us to move on, why don't we get a contract that we can live with? I frankly enjoy what I do and would like to stay.
Its so easy for some to say, just move on, well have you seen the employment numbers lately? I will not move on simply because you tell me to. I've been furloughed and have moved on. I chose to come back and had my eyes wide open when I came knowing full well what the conditions were and chose to stay. MY decision, not yours.
We FAs deserve a liveable contract!! We pay $43 a month to have a Union "protect" us. They should have been earning their dollars years ago. FIVE YEARS and still no merged contract. We are the laughing stock. The other carriers are now negotiating amendable contracts and they too have fights on their hands, but nothing like good ole' US.
Has anyone seen the latest AFA66 eline stating they are having issues with a PBS software application. It seems they are designing software based on a 1998 model! Yes, I said 1998!!! The Internet was still in its infancy stages then!! I will find the link and post.
Its so easy for some to say, just move on, well have you seen the employment numbers lately? I will not move on simply because you tell me to. I've been furloughed and have moved on. I chose to come back and had my eyes wide open when I came knowing full well what the conditions were and chose to stay. MY decision, not yours.
We FAs deserve a liveable contract!! We pay $43 a month to have a Union "protect" us. They should have been earning their dollars years ago. FIVE YEARS and still no merged contract. We are the laughing stock. The other carriers are now negotiating amendable contracts and they too have fights on their hands, but nothing like good ole' US.
Has anyone seen the latest AFA66 eline stating they are having issues with a PBS software application. It seems they are designing software based on a 1998 model! Yes, I said 1998!!! The Internet was still in its infancy stages then!! I will find the link and post.
Whatnow?
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
- 862
- 8
I've gotta say that I've experienced the "new reserve" system more times than I care to admit, so I do understand the issues reserves currently have. That said....most of the year I hold a Secondary line and am awarded blocks that are worth anywhere from 73-78 hours....which is not enough for me to live on in my 21st year of flying. I have always had to work on my days off to pick up additional time.....it's just the way it has to be to make a living here! In fact, most all f/a's blockholders and reserves are working on their days off to make extra money....I'm grateful that there is an option for us to make extra money by using the ETB....granted it's on our days off....but again it's an option if you need it.....and it's not seniority driven so everybody has an equal chance to pick up trips. Again, I'm not condoning the fact that the reserve contracts bites....because it does! I'm just saying that there are options out there if you want them....I know a lot of reserves who fly on their days off....to supplement their pay because they would rather do that than have to find a second job. Now, I know a lot of reserves commute and cannot easily fly on days off....but right now with this terrible contract you gotta do what you gotta do!
You know years ago, when I spent my life on reserve.....there was no ETB and if we did not break guarantee (65 hours) that was all there was!
And not to defend Mr TLV....but shame on those senior women for giving him all those trips rather than posting them on the ETB....he's found a loop hole and he's working the system! And from what I hear the FAA will soon impose more crew rest restrictions on crewmembers that will stop flying like this dead in their tracks!
JMO....not meant to make it B/H versus Reserve because quite frankly we are all in the same boat when it comes to having to work on our days off to make a living under these substandard wages and rules!
Can i copy and paste these questions and send them to Hector ?? great questions!! I am sure I can get you an answer .These Crew News Sessions simply baffle me.
In the latest PHX session, flight attendants asked when we will replace the AWA bulkheads (
*When will we have a joint contract? It's been five years. Please give exact details of where the negotiations stand, and offer us a negotiations schedule for the next 6 months. Are you sitting in on the negotiations, Hector? If not, who is, and please provide a bit of a background for us with regards to who is negotiating for the Company.
*Why, Hector, are you implementing a "Quality Assurance" program for Inflight Services, onboard the aircraft, before addressing the serious morale issues, namely due to working under Bankruptcy Era contracts? How about offering us a fair, livable contract, then implementing a Uniform/ Onboard Quality Control Program? Would not it make sense to make your internal customers feel appreciated first, so they can then feel better about taking care of our external customers? Thoughts, Hector?
*Why, after five years, are America West flight attendants still paid less than their East counterparts? Is it amusing to you that while you are saving substantially on labor costs, flight attendants continue to lose their homes, and struggle to put food on the table? You may not hear about it, Hector, but it is happening in increasing numbers, everyday.
* Because East and West are paid differently, does the Company somehow benefit from the infighting and general disdain this disparity creates between the two work groups?
*Do you see a morale issue, and can you attribute it to the fact that flight attendants area the last group (aside from the pilots) to receive their contract, pay raises, and work rule improvements?
*Are you aware that the reserve systems on the East and the West are severely flawed, and why is it that you don't feel the need to expedite a joint contract and do anything about it? Please don't say that something IS being done about it; I again remind you we "merged" five years ago.
*Why are reserves on the East being deducted 3+30 from their guarantee when they can't make it through 40 inches of snow to get to work, and yet the line holders simply have to make up the time? How do I make up my 3+30? Now, my guarantee has been reduced to 69+30? Have you ever tried to drive through 40 inches of snow in the pitch dark at 445am? Where is the general common sense here?
*Why do 85% of the East reserves have vacation in January and February, causing a complete meltdown of the East system during the past three snowstorms? Who designed these vacation matrices, and what type of discipline is he/ she receiving? Will he/ she also be responsible for personally giving me my 3+30 back that was taken from my already paltry guarantee because we were under a State of Emergency in Philadelphia?
*Why is the Company calling me on my vacation to work trips, when they assigned this vacation to me in the first place? I didn't choose it, I received what was left. It was your choice to award me 15 days of vacation in Jan and Feb, not mine. And now, you instruct a sweet voiced crew scheduler to call me to help, and shower me with kindness and gifts, when only two weeks ago I was assigned another trip at the gate after arriving home from a 5 day trip, and this same sweet voiced scheduler was screaming at me to "go to the gate, or else..!"? My, how her attitude changed!
We're humans, not robots. Fix the system. It's been five years.
*I can only speak for the East here, but why is the Company so comfortable with the LTO reserve system? If we had a reserve system where we could actually possibly break guarantee, flight attendants would've been coming out of the woodwork to work trips during the last three storms. Under the LTO system, there is no incentive to work, only to receive guarantee. Hector, are you familiar with the LTO system, and the limits it sets not only on the flight attendants, but Crew Scheduling, when they need us the most? And you still are in no rush to offer us a joint contract with a fair, workable reserve system?
*Why are Inflight Supervisors meeting flights in PHL and assigning the deadheading flight attendants onboard to head out on another turn, or another two day, after they've been away from home for five days already? Why isn't that Inflight Supervisor stepping into a "Stan Herman" tracksuit and heading out on the two day themselves? Heck, the past three times I've been in the Crew Room during the past three snow emergencies, the Inflight doors were locked and closed-- presumably, the Supervisors couldn't make it to work? Granted, it was 6:30am, and the roads were indeed treacherous.....
Make no mistake, I believe that every single employee realizes the financial situation the airline find itself in, and do not expect everything and more. What we do expect is a fair contract, with improvements, after five years, that addresses the severe scheduling, benefit, pay disparity and work rule issues we are enduring. While the bulkheads, trash bags, and cashless cabin delays are issues that need to be dealt with, it would seem that taking care of your employees first would pay dividends to both the Company and our customers, more so than new carpeting on the walls.
How sad your attitude is. Work on your off time, that's appropriate. My time sucked and so should yours. We have always sucked and always will and should wear it as a badge of honor. That's just the way it is. You're not good enough and I'm only slightly better. You gotta do what you gotta do. That's pretty pathetic.
Do us all a favor and keep your low self-worth out of our contract negotiations.
Whatnow?
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
- 862
- 8
Just making a living at a job I enjoy doing.....I'm not settling for anything and not accepting the current conditions we all work under....but right now what can we do.....come on here and #### and complain on a daily basis or make the best of it until we can make the right changes.....don't judge me....because you have no idea what I stand for!! <_<
V
VAflyGal
Guest
[quote name='Whatnow?'
I'm just doing simple math but let's assume your secondary block is worth 75 hours since you said between 73-78. That said, BH's get min days of 5.00, which reserves do not, so you are basically being scheduled 15 days a month. Anything you pick up on your other 15-16 days a month off still affords you more time off than a RSV who gets 11 days "off" a month. That said, the ETB restrictions and parameters with the 0930 - 1800 departure and returns severely limit our ability to pick things up, IF Sally Stew-Senior mama doesn't hand over her trip directly to Mr. TLV or any of her other friends -
That said, it is what it is. I work a 2nd job that pays more than this place, but it's commission only so I actually have to be committed to doing it. I will not vote for a contract that has one single concession in the RSV section, and I think I can speak for other juniors like myself.
I'm just doing simple math but let's assume your secondary block is worth 75 hours since you said between 73-78. That said, BH's get min days of 5.00, which reserves do not, so you are basically being scheduled 15 days a month. Anything you pick up on your other 15-16 days a month off still affords you more time off than a RSV who gets 11 days "off" a month. That said, the ETB restrictions and parameters with the 0930 - 1800 departure and returns severely limit our ability to pick things up, IF Sally Stew-Senior mama doesn't hand over her trip directly to Mr. TLV or any of her other friends -
That said, it is what it is. I work a 2nd job that pays more than this place, but it's commission only so I actually have to be committed to doing it. I will not vote for a contract that has one single concession in the RSV section, and I think I can speak for other juniors like myself.
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