AAA thread 11/2-11/8

[end_of_alpa]

A USAPA win would not invalidate any of the arbitrated awards at USAirways east.

Assuming USAPA becomes the bargaining agent AND when that happens there is not already a joint contract ratified and in place, then USAPA would become the contract administrator for TWO contracts (east and west) and TWO separate seniority lists. Both of these lists are already set in stone, and these are the lists with which USAPA will work.

If the joint contract is already in place, then the Nicolau list will automatically be set in place, also. If USAPA then wins as bargaining agent, it will administer the one contract and the Nicolau list. I believe this is acknowledged on the USAPA website, too. Once Nic becomes effective, that's it. And that is also why a new bargaining agent can't change the lists in effect when the election takes place.

Invalidation of the award is NOT the correct term. Enforcement is more the correct term. The arbitration award is only as good as ALPA remains the CB agent AND the MAJORITY votes for a contract that has the award in it. As I have posted here before, seniority is part of the contract. ALL contracts under RLA do not expire...they become amenable. They are what is known as Federal contracts. Adjudication of these contracts occur in Federal courts if their is any dispute not resolved at the NMB first (there is a least one exception to this but it is not germane for this discussion). If USAPA becomes the new CB agent, they are not bound to negotiate ALPA merger policy any more than they are the ALPA Constitution/bylaws/policy.

It is NOT acknowledged on the USAPA website.

The collective bargaining agreement is property of the pilots employed by the airlines.

The constitution/bylaws/policy are the property (property is technically not the correct term but it DOES prescribe ownership, which is what this is all about) of the collective bargaining agent...in this case ALPA. ALL contracts are amenable at any time on RLA carriers, period.

For example, any contract can be reopened before the amenable date IF both parties (Employer and employee) agree to open it.

USAPA is no more bound to enforce Nicolau than it is to enforce ALPA's constitution/bylaws.

Please read my previous post. http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...st&p=540989

 

[aquagreen73s]

USAPA is no more bound to enforce Nicolau than it is to enforce ALPA's constitution/bylaws.

Please read my previous post. http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...st&p=540989

That is absolutely not true. USAPA would be a successor in interest to ALPA and would inherit prior obligations. I have no idea where you guys come from, but as a licensed attorney in California and Arizona I can tell you with metaphysical certainty that USAPA is clearly bound to enforce Nicolau - every bit as much as its predecessor. But, you're welcome to believe what you like.

 

[end_of_alpa]

That is absolutely not true. USAPA would be a successor in interest to ALPA and would inherit prior obligations. I have no idea where you guys come from, but as a licensed attorney in California and Arizona I can tell you with metaphysical certainty that USAPA is clearly bound to enforce Nicolau - every bit as much as its predecessor. But, you're welcome to believe what you like.

Are you a labor lawyer?

If you are any kind of lawyer do you use Nexis/Westlaw/Loislaw for your legal research?

Are you a pilot?

Do you currently practice law?

What is your specialty?

Do you have any case law to support your position?

Since you claim to be a lawyer in two different jurisdictions, perhaps YOU can enlighten us with a legal opinion and cite the cases you use to support YOUR position?

 

[end_of_alpa]

I have stated my work history with UA here many times. Your obsession with it is a bit creepy.

So.

1. Are you currently a pilot? yes or no.

2. If #1 answer is yes, do you work for a major airline? yes or no.

3. If #1 is yes and #2 is no, do you work for a regional airline? yes or no.

4. If #1 is yes and #2 and #3 is no, do you fly as a commercial pilot in general aviation? yes or no.

If no to #1..Do you have any special interests/reasons for posting here? yes or no.

Do you have a VESTED interest in this forum (e.g. boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse that works as pilot for US Airways)? yes or no.

Do you have a job with ANY airline in any line of work other than pilot. yes or no.

I do not have any obsession, by the way. I have an interest in being here.

However, If you answer the questions I have just posted in the negative, I would have to say your obsession to be involved in this forum to border on the creepy side.

(p.s. I do not believe you'll be answering MY questions.)

Thanks for taking this survey.

 

[CapnCockroach]

I can't believe I think USA320 would actually raise the level of conversation here.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Not really, and not so apples and oranges.....

End of Alpa seemed to be initially saying that changing union representation nullified previous seniority awards, so I was asking if that meant nullifing all previous awards. Later posts, after my question, seem to say that the award isn't nullified but merely has no meaning since it can't take effect till there's a joint contract which East could vote down - the same solution that's been available the whole time.

Jim

What I was saying Jim was that the CB agreement and all of its terms can be negotiated and renegotiated at anytime. If one party does not want to modify a contract until its amenable date, then your bound to it. However, side letters are nothing more than amendments (or additions, if you like) to current contracts. LOA 93 is an example of a contract amendment that amends an actual contract.

As far as rejuggling seniority awards like Empire, Shuttle or Piedmont anything is certainly possible, but in this case it's simply not practical. Those issues are closed issues. In this case, the Nicolau seniority list has no more value right now than say a list that you put out, I put out or anyone else puts out. It has to be voted on...voted on by the MAJORITY.

What I am saying is USAPA or any other labor union has NO OBLIGATION to support, defend, enforce, or call it what you like, the previous CB agents constitution/bylaws/policy. That should go without saying.

If USAPA negotiates a contract with the company and the company agrees to sign it after it goes out to the rank and file and IS ratified (or in other words the majority votes for it) then THAT is the CB agreement. Unions are mini governments. It's probably one of the most democratic forms of government in the world....even more so than our own federal constitution is.

On a scale of 0 to 10, a CB Agent has the power to negotiate and sign a contract from the low end of, say, .5 which would have stuff like basic civil rights and reasonable actions for the representation of its members and on the high end of, say 9.5 which would be the oversight of the federal courts for things like fraud, extortion...stuff like that.

We can't get ANY new union in here unless the MAJORITY votes for one. You can't force anyone in a secret ballot to vote YOUR candidate of your choice.

We can't get ANY contract in here unless the MAJORITY votes for one. You can't force anyone in a secret ballot to vote a contract of YOUR choice either.

It's all about MAJORITY. It's that simple. Let's not complicate it.

 

[Bear96]

If you are any kind of lawyer do you use Nexis/Westlaw/Loislaw for your legal research?

You know, you asked me this question too, and I ignored it as odd and irrelevant.

Is your point that the electronic legal research provider an attorney uses has something to do with the ability of that attorney?

I'll throw you a bone. My firm currently uses LexisNexis (although we have used Weslaw in the past). Yours?

Now, how is that relevant to this discussion?

 

[sharktooth]

That is absolutely not true. USAPA would be a successor in interest to ALPA and would inherit prior obligations. I have no idea where you guys come from, but as a licensed attorney in California and Arizona I can tell you with metaphysical certainty that USAPA is clearly bound to enforce Nicolau - every bit as much as its predecessor. But, you're welcome to believe what you like.

What is "metaphysical certainty"? Is that like "tongue in cheek"?

The "nic" does not become an "obligation" until a joint contract, under the agency responsible for the "list", is agreed to, i.e., the list becomes effective only when a joint contract, under ALPA, is agreed to.

Should another union take charge with a different merger policy, then the outcome would likely be different, say, if the "new" union has a different merger policy like date of hire, then the "nic" becomes moot.

Like when AFA was voted in on the PSA property, a lot of things changed, including a reshuffling of their seniority list! Perhaps Boeing Jim has a point!

and, IANAL.

 

[Bear96]

So.

1. Are you currently a pilot? yes or no.

2. If #1 answer is yes, do you work for a major airline? yes or no.

3. If #1 is yes and #2 is no, do you work for a regional airline? yes or no.

4. If #1 is yes and #2 and #3 is no, do you fly as a commercial pilot in general aviation? yes or no.

5. If no to #1..Do you have any special interests/reasons for posting here? yes or no.

6. Do you have a VESTED interest in this forum (e.g. boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse that works as pilot for US Airways)? yes or no.

7. Do you have a job with ANY airline in any line of work other than pilot. yes or no.

OK, you might not have been around when this has been discussed before (which comes up a lot for some reason, but I am flattered by the attention), so:

Hold a commercial pilot certificate, no, no, yes, yes, no (not sure I understand the "vested" thing, but I'll play along for the moment with the "e.g.'s"), currently no but in the past yes. (Please note I took the liberty of numbering 5, 6 and 7 for you.)

I do not have any obsession, by the way. I have an interest in being here.

However, If you answer the questions I have just posted in the negative, I would have to say your obsession to be involved in this forum to border on the creepy side.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I do not have any obsession, by the way. I have an interest in being here.

(p.s. I do not believe you'll be answering MY questions.)

Oh dear, you are turning out to be as wrong as often as Nostrily is.

 

[Bear96]

Oops. Duplicate post deleted.

 

[nostradamus]

Oh dear, you are turning out to be as wrong as often as Nostrily is.

You are or were flight attendant for United Airlines. You are also a lawyer, pilot wannabe, you were too lazy to attain licenses for either of these professions, so you are now living your life vicariously using this message board.

Sad lonely life you have.

"A little bit of knowledge is truly dangerous."

 

[end_of_alpa]

You know, you asked me this question too, and I ignored it as odd and irrelevant.

Is your point that the electronic legal research provider an attorney uses has something to do with the ability of that attorney?

I'll throw you a bone. My firm currently uses LexisNexis (although we have used Weslaw in the past). Yours?

Now, how is that relevant to this discussion?

Well, it just makes me curious. I subscribe to Westlaw. I pay a large sum of cash to maintain my subscription. I am a pilot here. This would be a "forum" where people of "similar" interests congregate for their professional interests. What I'm trying to figure out is why people like yourself somehow want to be addressing "issues" that, I would think, have no bearing (thought I'd use the pun) on their careers OR their lives. It strikes me as "odd" that you bring up "some" caselaw but you do not seem to want to bring the full weight of your "legal" expertise to this forum by doing the legal research and backing your opinions with the proper form for citations. I would even make a guess that if you do work at a law firm, its practice has nothing to do with labor law.

To a point, what I see here is someone from the "outside" wanting to stir up trouble or the more likely scenaro is you have a chip on your shoulder against pilots. I presume that since your "firm" has Lexis, you are not allowed to use it to research your own way through labor law.

It may also be possible that your trying to practice your "debating" for your fourth year college exam so you decide to do it "online" and avoid face to face debate.

So I'll get to the point (since you think I'm too windy):

I think you're a want to be airline pilot but you couldn't get past the advanced flying for any number of reasons.

Let me see if the "great karnak" can get this straight then:

You hold a commercial pilot certificate but your not current,

you do not work for any major or regional airline,

you have a boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse that works for a major/regional airline either on the East or West side of US Airways (I'm guessing West) and

you're either between airline jobs or you want an airline job doing SOMETHING,

you have a chip on your shoulder because you couldn't make the grade for pilot and your having trouble with your legal studies,

You have access to a highly sophisticated legal research tool to back your positions but either your attorney/boss won't let you use it in your paralegal job to rebut the people on this forum,

but the more likely scenario is you just do not know how to use it.

How am I doing so far?

 

[usabusdriver]

As far as rejuggling seniority awards like Empire, Shuttle or Piedmont anything is certainly possible, but in this case it's simply not practical. Those issues are closed issues. In this case, the Nicolau seniority list has no more value right now than say a list that you put out, I put out or anyone else puts out. It has to be voted on...voted on by the MAJORITY.

What I am saying is USAPA or any other labor union has NO OBLIGATION to support, defend, enforce, or call it what you like, the previous CB agents constitution/bylaws/policy. That should go without saying.

End,

I disagree. The arbitration was between the two pilot groups. I think Jim’s question goes to the heart of your argument.

I believe that any attempt to combine the two pilot groups with a single seniority list is bound by the arbitration regardless of the representational body for the CBA. You state that the Nic award has not been implemented and therefore may be negated. I do not think the validity of an arbitration award rests with its implementation. The Nic award is the contractual adjudicated culmination of the dispute between the two pilot groups. Not ALPA National or the company. ALPA National was not a participant in the seniority arbitration between the two pilot groups, nor did it represent the two pilot groups in the arbitration process. If successful in wining a representational election, USAPA will have to address the seniority dispute between the two pilot groups adhering to the prior contractual obligations of the two pilot groups through the arbitration, same as adhering to the contractual obligations of the two pilot groups through their CBAs.

If, as you state, that the arbitration award has no value because, “USAPA or any other labor union has NO OBLIGATION to support, defend, enforce, or call it what you like, the previous CB agents constitution/bylaws/policy.â€￾, and therefore is not required to defend the award then Jim’s question comes into play. If USAPA’s constitution/bylaws/policy define placement on a combined or merged seniority list as strictly DOH or LOS, then when creating or implementing a seniority list for the new US Airways to treat all members in an equal and fair fashion they would have to use original DOH or LOS with the entire pilot group. How can USAPA defend an arbitration award derived under the ALPA constitution/bylaws/policy in one case and not all? How would USAPA argue in court that the empire or shuttle pilots are not entitled to their original DOH or LOS on the new seniority list in accordance with the USAPA constitution/bylaws/policy?

To selectively implement the constitution/bylaws/policy would invite a DFR lawsuit.

It is specious to argue that a contractually adjudicated arbitration award to settle a dispute concerning a combined seniority list is not valid until implemented in a single CBA, but then when implementing a combined list saying the arbitration award is not valid because the lists were never combined in a single CBA.

And no, I am not a lawyer!

 

[Bear96]

You are or were flight attendant for United Airlines. You are also a lawyer, pilot wannabe, you were too lazy to attain licenses for either of these professions, so you are now living your life vicariously using this message board.

Yes, yes, no, no, no.

 

[Bear96]

Well, it just makes me curious. I subscribe to Westlaw.

Gee, that's fascinating. (Really.) Now, what does it matter if I or you use Lexis, Westlaw, or Loislaw?

I am a pilot here. This would be a "forum" where people of "similar" interests congregate for their professional interests.

Ah, I see your confusion. This is in fact an anonyomus internet discussion board that anyone can sign up for and participate it. You are free to start a "members only" discussion board where you can verify all participants are LCC pilots. But this ain't that.

It strikes me as "odd" that you bring up "some" caselaw but you do not seem to want to bring the full weight of your "legal" expertise to this forum by doing the legal research . . .

As I have previously mentioned, I simply don't have the time to chase down and disprove all the false paths and obfuscations some people here throw out as they contort logic and law in their attempts to show that binding arbitration is indeed not binding. People like you and USA320pilot (RIP) are like bunch of squid squirting ink in their wake to try to cloud some relatively simple issues. I just don't have the time or the inclination to clear up all the clouds you leave in your wake.

Plus, I don't want to do things only half-baked. Doing a half-ass job at legal esearch only leads to such embarassing mistakes as stating, "The law is that the FAA does not apply to employment contracts," without realizing the Supreme Court disagrees. Oops!

. . . and backing your opinions with the proper form for citations.

? Translation please? Did I make a Bluebooking error?

I would even make a guess that if you do work at a law firm, its practice has nothing to do with labor law.

Wrong again. At least you're consistent. (And if you practiced labor law, I guarantee you would have heard of my firm.)

To a point, what I see here is someone from the "outside" wanting to stir up trouble or the more likely scenaro is you have a chip on your shoulder against pilots.

That's it. I state the law is on the side of the West pilots in the instant dispute and against the East pilots, and you conclude I am against ALL pilots because of some "chip" (again, RIP) on my shoulder. You very funny man.

I presume that since your "firm" has Lexis, you are not allowed to use it to research your own way through labor law.

Have you ever worked for a major firm? Obviously not, since you have no concept of the billing structure Lexis has for large firms. I have unlimited access to Lexis. It's a lot like a law school account.

You hold a commercial pilot certificate but your not current,

you do not work for any major or regional airline,

you have a boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse that works for a major/regional airline either on the East or West side of US Airways (I'm guessing West) and

you're either between airline jobs or you want an airline job doing SOMETHING,

you have a chip on your shoulder because you couldn't make the grade for pilot and your having trouble with your legal studies,

You have access to a highly sophisticated legal research tool to back your positions but either your attorney/boss won't let you use it in your paralegal job to rebut the people on this forum,

but the more likely scenario is you just do not know how to use it.

How am I doing so far?

Pretty poorly.

Now let me guess about you.

You are an East pilot bitter about how his career has gone.

As part of your mid-life crisis, you had this brilliant idea to go to law school.

You spent tens of thousands of dollars (maybe racking up huge debt) to go to a mediocre law school and got mediocre grades.

After barely passing the bar, you couldn't get hired by a decent firm and so hung up a shingle out of desperation.

You now draw up a few codicils for Aunt Millie's will every few months, and handle a few residential real estate closings and divorces between miserable people who hate each other and gripe about your small bill, and maybe defend a few DUIs or other petty criminals for a pitifully low rate.

You desperately wish you could have gotten on with a firm that actually has a labor law practice since, as an airline pilot, you know everything about everything to do with labor law.

But you couldn't, so you are reduced to hurling insults at someone on the other side of a computer screen who has the non-airline job you want.