AA - NWA - SWA - Mechanic Pay Comparison

[Bob Owens]

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On 5/15/2003 10:25:05 AM Get Over It Already wrote:

AA has 16000 mechanics per you, 3300 out per you = 20% on furlough

NW had 7700 mechanics in Dec, 2200 furloughed not including ATL mechanics who did not move = at least 28% on furlough



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With the pay cuts we agreed to the finacial effect is a two year layoff for 100% of our mechanics. For the company this is a bonanza. They get two years worth of free labor from all of their mechanics. They cut the cash flow as if there was a layoff but still, in theory, get the same productive capacity.

 

[RV4]

​

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On 5/17/2003 7:56:13 AM atabuy wrote:

This thread brings up the age old riddle of what came first.
The union or the company.

Imagine if you will every parents child joining the IWABA
Commonly known as the (I want a big allowance union)

No matter what a parents wage is, a child could take the biggest portion of it, not caring whether the bills got paid or not. As long as the greedy little kids got theirs, who cares.
It will be years before they have any business classes, or go to college. In fact the IWABA is in negotiations right now for the parents to get part time jobs to supplement the kids college fund.

When interviewed for comments, the kids said their parents were just inept, and stupid. They had no right to even have children. The parents are expecting another child shortly, and their health insurance has lapsed due to no funds. The kids are also bitching because the car was repossessed, and they have no way to get to baseball and field hockey games. A lawsuit is being prepared against the parents.

The parents said they would divorce, but noone wants the kids.

The children are in the process of finding better parents. The cards have all been signed, and Oliver Twist's single parent looks like a good canidate. Much easier to negotiate with one than two.
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All I can say is this:

American Airlines is not my parents. I am NOT a dependent of American Airlines.

Equating the Profession of Aircraft Maintenance to children and allowances, demonstrates a simpleton and dangerous view of passenger and public safety. You are speaking of a dysfunctional family and yet think that applies to the comparing of mechanics wages? What are you smoking?

Children are NOT adults working for a wage in exchange for a living wage.

Imagine the parents depriving the children of a decent allowance, while working them instead of allowing them to play youth sports, attend church, or visit relatives on a Holiday. Imagine the Parents secretly saving money in hidden accounts while claiming to be Bankrupt.

Never forget, there are on record over 20 years of concessions from the children and the parents are still unable to manage a profit. Is this the greedy children's fault?

What came first, the mis-management or the disgruntled concession broke worker?

 

[atabuy]

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On 5/17/2003 8:46:14 AM RV4 wrote:

 ​

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On 5/17/2003 7:56:13 AM atabuy wrote:

This thread brings up the age old riddle of what came first.
The union or the company.

Imagine if you will every parents child joining the IWABA
Commonly known as the (I want a big allowance union)

No matter what a parents wage is, a child could take the biggest portion of it, not caring whether the bills got paid or not. As long as the greedy little kids got theirs, who cares.
It will be years before they have any business classes, or go to college. In fact the IWABA is in negotiations right now for the parents to get part time jobs to supplement the kids college fund.

When interviewed for comments, the kids said their parents were just inept, and stupid. They had no right to even have children. The parents are expecting another child shortly, and their health insurance has lapsed due to no funds. The kids are also bitching because the car was repossessed, and they have no way to get to baseball and field hockey games. A lawsuit is being prepared against the parents.

The parents said they would divorce, but noone wants the kids.

The children are in the process of finding better parents. The cards have all been signed, and Oliver Twist''s single parent looks like a good canidate. Much easier to negotiate with one than two.
----------------​

All I can say is this:

 American Airlines is not my parents. I am NOT a dependent of American Airlines.

Equating the Profession of Aircraft Maintenance to children and allowances, demonstrates a simpleton and dangerous view of passenger and public safety. You are speaking of a dysfunctional family and yet think that applies to the comparing of mechanics wages? What are you smoking?

Children are NOT adults working for a wage in exchange for a living wage.

Imagine the parents depriving the children of a decent allowance, while working them instead of allowing them to play youth sports, attend church, or visit relatives on a Holiday. Imagine the Parents secretly saving money in hidden accounts while claiming to be Bankrupt.

Never forget, there are on record over 20 years of concessions from the children and the parents are still unable to manage a profit. Is this the greedy children''s fault?

What came first, the mis-management or the disgruntled concession broke worker?


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RV4,
Come on man! 20 years of concessions? You really floor me with this dumb and false info.

Even a parasite feeds only enough to live and not kill the host. Do you really think AA is hiding money so you have to take a cut? Now I know, studies show long time smoking of the cannabis, can cause paranoia. Maybe that''s not the case, but there is medical help out there for chemical imbalance problems.

I can understand differing opinions about which union someone might want, and how they might feel it will be the savior of the working man, but you can''t get something out of nothing. Airlines are hurting and no matter what you do or say, you won''t get any raises until prices get better and airlines make money.

Comparing wages to another carrier is like comparing a rich guy to a poor one. The kids of the rich guy are going to get much more than the poor kid will because...........? That''s right, he has more money.
Nowwwwwwwwwwww! Get this!!!!! Southwest makes money. AA does not. Go work for Southwest if you want more money, or get a part time job and stay working at AA. Being a mechanic does not give you any rights. It just allows you to earn a living. Get over yourself. Your emotions have made you lose all logic, and frustration has become your platform.

Now go to your room until you can become more objective.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 5/17/2003 12:03:45 PM atabuy wrote:

RV4,
Come on man! 20 years of concessions? You really floor me with this dumb and false info.

Dumb & False?
First with B-scale-early 80s
Gave up 8 hour day-now 8.5- early 80s
Gave up Maint R&D- early 80s
Gave up deicing-early 90s
Gave up company paid medical-late 80s
Gave cross-utilization-early 80s
Gave up overtime for training off shift-12hr days at straight time-early 80s
There is more.

Even a parasite feeds only enough to live and not kill the host. Do you really think AA is hiding money so you have to take a cut? Now I know, studies show long time smoking of the cannabis, can cause paranoia. Maybe that's not the case, but there is medical help out there for chemical imbalance problems.

To be unaware of anything is a symtom of being catatonic. This condition is even more serious than paranoia.

I can understand differing opinions about which union someone might want, and how they might feel it will be the savior of the working man, but you can't get something out of nothing. Airlines are hurting and no matter what you do or say, you won't get any raises until prices get better and airlines make money.

Who is loking for raises? I think that we just expect to have our original contract honored.

Comparing wages to another carrier is like comparing a rich guy to a poor one.

That was not the position that the company took. Besides, we sell our product, similar to Shell or EXXON. Should they differentiate their price depending on AAs bottom line?

The kids of the rich guy are going to get much more than the poor kid will because...........? That's right, he has more money.

Does SWA pay more for fuel, landing rights and other expenses because it makes more money? When AA was making more than anyone else were they wiling to pay more than everyone else? Or did they want to pay "industry" or "market" rates?

Nowwwwwwwwwwww! Get this!!!!! Southwest makes money. AA does not. Go work for Southwest if you want more money, or get a part time job and stay working at AA.

Well the only way SWA would be able to expand enough to hire more mechanics is if AA, UA and USAIR were out of the way. Is that what you are recommending?

Being a mechanic does not give you any rights. It just allows you to earn a living.

If it did that we would not be here.

Get over yourself. Your emotions have made you lose all logic, and frustration has become your platform.

Now go to your room until you can become more objective.

Like you? The fact is that profitability of the carrier has very little to do with pay rates. When the airlines are making money they do not want to share it, when they are losing money they all of a sudden want to include employees in the "family"but only so they can bear the pain not share the pain.

Wages are determined by what is negotiated. What is negotated is determined by who does the negotiating and what the members accept. Over the last twenty years while the employess have given concession after concession both the company and the union have prospered. The price of this prosperity was a decreased standard of living for workers who perform this type of work. The workers were betrayed. The benifit for the company needs no clarification. Why would a union, whose sole purpose is supposed to be to enhance our pay, benifits and working conditions promote a decline in all these areas? Easy. While our standard of living has declined, our union at AA has gone from around 10,000 dues payers to over 30,000 dues payers. The decline in real wages and thus dues per worker was more than offset by volume for the union. The union benifited at the expense of its members.

For over 20 years AA has been the leader in concessions. We have maintained that dubious distinction by giving away more before BK than our competitors gave in BK. The only reason why we have less layoffs is because our low wages eliminate or mitigate the advantage of outsourcing. If we are willing to lower our pay and working conditions in order to make our rates competative with non-union repair shops then what is the advantage of being union?

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[atabuy]

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On 5/17/2003 1:03:56 PM Bob Owens wrote:

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On 5/17/2003 12:03:45 PM atabuy wrote:

RV4,
Come on man! 20 years of concessions? You really floor me with this dumb and false info.

Dumb & False?
First with B-scale-early 80s
Gave up 8 hour day-now 8.5- early 80s
Gave up Maint R&D- early 80s
Gave up deicing-early 90s
Gave up company paid medical-late 80s
Gave cross-utilization-early 80s
Gave up overtime for training off shift-12hr days at straight time-early 80s
There is more.

Even a parasite feeds only enough to live and not kill the host. Do you really think AA is hiding money so you have to take a cut? Now I know, studies show long time smoking of the cannabis, can cause paranoia. Maybe that''s not the case, but there is medical help out there for chemical imbalance problems.

To be unaware of anything is a symtom of being catatonic. This condition is even more serious than paranoia.

I can understand differing opinions about which union someone might want, and how they might feel it will be the savior of the working man, but you can''t get something out of nothing. Airlines are hurting and no matter what you do or say, you won''t get any raises until prices get better and airlines make money.

Who is loking for raises? I think that we just expect to have our original contract honored.

Comparing wages to another carrier is like comparing a rich guy to a poor one.

That was not the position that the company took. Besides, we sell our product, similar to Shell or EXXON. Should they differentiate their price depending on AAs bottom line?

The kids of the rich guy are going to get much more than the poor kid will because...........? That''s right, he has more money.

Does SWA pay more for fuel, landing rights and other expenses because it makes more money? When AA was making more than anyone else were they wiling to pay more than everyone else? Or did they want to pay "industry" or "market" rates?

Nowwwwwwwwwwww! Get this!!!!!  Southwest makes money. AA does not. Go work for Southwest if you want more money, or get a part time job and stay working at AA.

Well the only way SWA would be able to expand enough to hire more mechanics is if AA, UA and USAIR were out of the way. Is that what you are recommending?

Being a mechanic does not give you any rights. It just allows you to earn a living.

If it did that we would not be here.

Get over yourself. Your emotions have made you lose all logic, and frustration has become your platform.

Now go to your room until you can become more objective.

Like you? The fact is that profitability of the carrier has very little to do with pay rates. When the airlines are making money they do not want to share it, when they are losing money they all of a sudden want to include employees in the "family"but only so they can bear the pain not share the pain.

Wages are determined by what is negotiated. What is negotated is determined by who does the negotiating and what the members accept. Over the last twenty years while the employess have given concession after concession both the company and the union have prospered. The price of this prosperity was a decreased standard of living for workers who perform this type of work. The workers were betrayed. The benifit for the company needs no clarification. Why would a union, whose sole purpose is supposed to be to enhance our pay, benifits and working conditions promote a decline in all these areas? Easy. While our standard of living has declined, our union at AA has gone from around 10,000 dues payers to over 30,000 dues payers. The decline in real wages and thus dues per worker was more than offset by volume for the union. The union benifited at the expense of its members.

For over 20 years AA has been the leader in concessions. We have maintained that dubious distinction by giving away more before BK than our competitors gave in BK. The only reason why we have less layoffs is because our low wages eliminate or mitigate the advantage of outsourcing. If we are willing to lower our pay and working conditions in order to make our rates competative with non-union repair shops then what is the advantage of being union?

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Bob,
When you negotiate contracts, sometimes, old work rules become obsolete and new ones replace them.
When you agreed to changes in your contracts, you also got something in return. What that was, you would know better than I. If not new work, more pay to offset what was given up. It could have been new stations or a number of things.
One thing you guys always had working against you was Bob C.
He was a sharp guy who influenced so much of what all the airlines did.

The market place has a way of changing how business is done everywhere. What happen to workers who made products that went out with change. The workers adapted or were out of work.

Maybe it is time for unions to become involved in their company. That means you and you and you, and you. If you guys have been taking this crap from yourselves for 20 years, and you are the union. The union doesn''t stink unless you guys do because you are one and the same.

In fact, aren''t you one step up from the normal employee?

 

[atabuy]

This is from the U board about trouble in paradise with AMFA at NW

The grass does seem greener from here. What do you all think?


http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/3888150.html

 

[aapitbull]

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On 5/17/2003 3:06:37 PM atabuy wrote:

This is from the U board about trouble in paradise with AMFA at NW

The grass does seem greener from here. What do you all think?


http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/3888150.html

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I was waiting for someone to bring this up as I recall the last time it was reported that there was a IAM drive at NWA was just prior to the NMB ruling that denied a vote at UAL a year or so ago.

Now there will be a vote at UAL ending on JUL 14th and rumor has it that US AIR may file for a election by the end of JUNE, so guess what there is suddenly a drive at NWA. The IAM is nothing if not predictable.

However if the majority of the craft and class at NWA wants to change their union then more power to them being that I am represented by the worst union in the industry I would be willing to change to either the IAM, AMFA,IBT or UAW the problem is as a TWU member I cannot organize the IAM, IBT, OR UAW therefore I choose AMFA.

By the way my friends at NWA tell me if the time comes to dump AMFA the IBT would be their next choice because the IAM would mean getting back in the union that represents their fleet service clerks and that they do not want to do.

 

[RV4]

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On 5/17/2003 3:06:37 PM atabuy wrote:

This is from the U board about trouble in paradise with AMFA at NW
The grass does seem greener from here. What do you all think?


http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/3888150.html

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Quote from the story linked:

Joe Tiberi, IAM international spokesman, said AMFA is hurting its membership by refusing to work more closely with other unions on concessions. Northwest is attempting to cut its annual labor costs by $950 million, and the airline is asking its AMFA workers for cuts of $173 million.

​

I bet those NWA Mechanics are signing cards at a furious pace as a result of AMFA not "working on concessions".

Maybe AMFA acutally believes a contract is a contract.

I dont remember AA or NWA coming to the unions when profits were at a record pace claiming "We need to open the contract", and give you more money.
It is obvious that the TWU is not only hurting my pay and benefit package, they are attemtping to destroy the whole planet.

 

[RV4]

More quotes from te linked story:

AMFA's Mathews said there were about 9,200 Northwest mechanics, cleaners and custodians when the company started laying people off in the middle of 2001. By early March of this year, there were 7,666 workers in those job categories. Then Northwest announced on March 21 that it would cut another 2,000 mechanics and 125 cleaners in response to the war in Iraq.
AMFA has filed grievances to challenge Northwest's use of the "force majeure" clause that the airline used to justify layoffs after the 2001 terrorist attacks and the start of the Iraq war. AMFA has a job protection clause in its contract, but the company argued that it rightly invoked the force majeure clause that allows it to eliminate jobs in response to circumstances beyond its control -- terrorism and war.
"[AMFA leaders] don't know how to deal with negotiations with the company," said mechanic Dennis Isaacs, who transferred to the Twin Cities after Northwest closed the Atlanta maintenance base. If they were more skilled, they could have preserved some jobs in Atlanta, he said.
Mathews pointed out that the same day Northwest announced the closing of the Atlanta base that the airline also said it would close its Long Beach, Calif., reservations center, where about 250 IAM members worked. "[IAM] couldn't stop that. We couldn't stop the closing of Atlanta," Mathews said. "Northwest is swinging a pretty big bat right now."
He also mentioned that the IAM failed to block United Airlines from permanently closing a heavy maintenance base in Indianapolis, where 1,200 IAM members worked.
​

I think the TWU and IAM cultist would prefer Minimum Wage and a maintenance base in every state. Think of the number of "PRESERVED JOBS"!

MAYBE THE NWA-AMFA MECHANICS DO NOT FEEL THE NEED TO SUBSIDIZE THE PILOT "SACRED COW" PENSION AT NWA WITH CONCESSIONS FROM THEIR OWN PAYCHECK!

IT STILL PUZZLES ME WHY JAMES C. LITTLE, OF THE TWU FELT COMPELLED TO DO SO, ...

..."WITHOUT FURTHER RATIFICATION"!

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Here is a partial list of the concessions we have been giving the company even before all this:



TWU INDUSTRY LEADING CONCESSIONS.

1. Introduced the “B-Scale†to the airline industry, which, for employees hired after February 11, 1983, extended the length of time required to reach top pay from 2½ years to 12½ years, and reduced starting pay from $13.05/hour to $10.00/hour;

2. Reduced maximum vacation accrual from six weeks to four weeks;

3. Removed “lump sum†option on pension benefits;

4. Extended the probation period from three months to six months;

5. Introduced “Flex Benefits,†creating out-of-pocket contributions for health insurance coverage;

6. Failed to negotiate Cost of Living Allowances in contracts;

7. Introduced “Pre-funding†for retirement health benefits, requiring employee contributions;

8. “Skill Premiums†that are not included in the computation of overtime pay;

9. Eliminated company provided Long Term Disability insurance in favor of an out-of-pocket Union sponsored plan;

10. Negotiated away paid lunch periods;

11. Allowed “push backs†and de-icing functions to be transferred from the Mechanics and Related classification to Fleet Service classification.

12. Failed to negotiate increases in Dental Plan annual maximum to compensate for inflation;

13. Allowed entry level pay to be reduced by 45% by creating the new job classification of “Shop Repair Person†(“SRP);

14. Eliminated the Blast Machine Operator position by combining the blasting functions with those performed by parts washers.

15. Allowed extensive outsourcing of protected work through side letters of agreement with the Company;

16. Extended the Junior Mechanic program from one year to four years, and restricted “credited experience†requirements.

17. Allowed the company to stop paying full pay for unused sick days at retirement, paying, instead, less than one hour''s pay for each unused sick day.

18. Allowed the company to stop paying 3 hours’ pay at end of each year for each sick day not used (of the days allotted for that year).

19. Allowed the company to eliminate the Supplemental Variable Annuities Program, in which the company matched employee contributions..

20. Allowed The company to replace TWU stores clerks with outside parts clerks at line auto shops.

 

[RUM@AA]

Not sure about USAir but UAL Mechs did not loose 10 days off per year or half of their sick time, or shift differetial or longevity pay. AA did, plus 4.5% more of a paycut. And the company is still getting ready to file bankruptcy. Good thing we saved the airline, huh?

Why is there not smiley face depicting vomiting? :-()raaalllffff

 

[RUM@AA]

Are you including OSMs in you calculations of TWU mechanics? When confronted with the issue that AA has $12.00/hr mechanics, a TWU E-board member commented that OSMs are NOT mechanics. NWA has no OSMs, for that matter neither does anyone else. So subtract about 3,000 from your number.

 

[RUM@AA]

The answer to your last question is yes, Bob. These so called TWU "Union Men" in Tulsa consider we advocates for craft unionism "scabs", "Elitists", even "Nazis". They truly are too stupid to understand the difference.

To Checking it out:
What kind of "union man" can support an organization that would ratify a consessionary contract after denying 3,200 members the right to vote on said contract? I want to know? Mr. Checking it out? You''ve been a staunch supporter of the TWU and still are. So much for democracy and liberty.
I know, I know, I''m off topic but you TWU stooges have really shown your true colors this time. No denying you''re Commie Dictators!! :-O rrraaaaaalllllfffff

 

[RUM@AA]

What is that? A Commie Flag on the bottom of your posts?
Instead of Got Overhaul... how about GOT PROFIT?

 

[atabuy]

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On 5/17/2003 10:23:18 PM Wretched Wrench wrote:

Here is a partial list of the concessions we have been giving the company even before all this:




TWU INDUSTRY LEADING CONCESSIONS.


1. Introduced the “B-Scale” to the airline industry, which, for employees hired after February 11, 1983, extended the length of time required to reach top pay from 2½ years to 12½ years, and reduced starting pay from $13.05/hour to $10.00/hour;


2. Reduced maximum vacation accrual from six weeks to four weeks;


3. Removed “lump sum” option on pension benefits;



4. Extended the probation period from three months to six months;



5. Introduced “Flex Benefits,” creating out-of-pocket contributions for health insurance coverage;


6. Failed to negotiate Cost of Living Allowances in contracts;



7. Introduced “Pre-funding” for retirement health benefits, requiring employee contributions;


8. “Skill Premiums” that are not included in the computation of overtime pay;


9. Eliminated company provided Long Term Disability insurance in favor of an out-of-pocket Union sponsored plan;



10. Negotiated away paid lunch periods;


11. Allowed “push backs” and de-icing functions to be transferred from the Mechanics and Related classification to Fleet Service classification.


12. Failed to negotiate increases in Dental Plan annual maximum to compensate for inflation;


13. Allowed entry level pay to be reduced by 45% by creating the new job classification of “Shop Repair Person” (“SRP);



14. Eliminated the Blast Machine Operator position by combining the blasting functions with those performed by parts washers.


15. Allowed extensive outsourcing of protected work through side letters of agreement with the Company;



16. Extended the Junior Mechanic program from one year to four years, and restricted “credited experience” requirements.



17. Allowed the company to stop paying full pay for unused sick days at retirement, paying, instead, less than one hour''s pay for each unused sick day.


18. Allowed the company to stop paying 3 hours’ pay at end of each year for each sick day not used (of the days allotted for that year).


19. Allowed the company to eliminate the Supplemental Variable Annuities Program, in which the company matched employee contributions..


20. Allowed The company to replace TWU stores clerks with outside parts clerks at line auto shops.



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Wretched,
Up until recently, all negotiations involved concessions and advancements in the contract negotiated.
When something was given up, you got something in return.
No company likes unions and will make the union fight for everything it gets.
If you owned a business, would you want control of it, or let your employees tell you what you will pay them and what they will do for you?
If you go back 20 years and figure cost of living, you might be surprised that you are well above that.

Some advancements were due to others having them. Some advancments you have no one else had.

No one likes change, and that is what is happening in this industry.
How it all shakes out, who knows.

One thing I will ask you as a good union man. When you have any kind of work done on your house, car, plumbing, or electrical, buying products, do you always go to a union backed operation or do you find the cheapest price?