AA - NWA - SWA - Mechanic Pay Comparison

[RV4]

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On 5/18/2003 9:06:20 PM Checking it Out wrote:


rv4,

Read what I wrote and read what you wrote! I do not believe I lied you are attempting to distort!


TWU SOLIDARITY!


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You call the actual Arbitration Award a distortion???

Hmmm, Whatever!

Feel free to point out my distortion for all to see!


dis•tort

Pronunciation: (di-stôrt'),
—v.t.
1. to twist awry or out of shape; make crooked or deformed: Arthritis had distorted his fingers.
2. to give a false, perverted, or disproportionate meaning to; misrepresent: to distort the facts.
3. Electronics.to reproduce or amplify (a signal) inaccurately by changing the frequencies or unequally changing the delay or amplitude of the components of the output wave.

Would you like to debate in front of the membership with that logic?

There is an AMFA informational meeting coming to Tulsa on the 30th...

Care to join the meeting with a debate?

 

[tbags]

What''s the old adage? "You can''t get blood from a stone?" The actions of AA Mgt. were reprehensible!!! However, these were a "drop in the bucket" compared to Billions of losses!!! How much more will your pay concesstions be if there is no more AA? Your situation sucks!!! But the bottom line is just that $$$. The entire Industry is changing. Best of luck!
Chris

 

[tbags]

Just curious...aren''t the members THE UNION? Board members, officers, shop stewards and most importantly, the negotiating commitee are elected from the MEMBERSHIP! I don''t understand why us union members try to blame our union in general. Is it not all of us in-departments that are ultimately responsible? If anyone has a better idea, I am happy to listen.

Chris

 

[tbags]

RV4,
Arbitration? This is not Baseball!! INMHO, I''ll always prefer the "Devil I know vs. the one I don''t". Baseball Arbitration deals much more with public opnion. The traveling public, the vast majority that is, couldn''t care less about airline employee compensation. They want safe, ontime, friendly and CHEAP transport! They don''t have a clue or care how they get this! This sucks for us...but we have to look out for ourselves. I don''t like the fact that an arbitrator can decide my fate.
Just my STRONG feelings,
Chris

 

[RV4]

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On 5/19/2003 1:03:38 AM tbags wrote:

RV4,
Arbitration? This is not Baseball!! INMHO, I'll always prefer the "Devil I know vs. the one I don't". Baseball Arbitration deals much more with public opnion. The traveling public, the vast majority that is, couldn't care less about airline employee compensation. They want safe, ontime, friendly and CHEAP transport! They don't have a clue or care how they get this! This sucks for us...but we have to look out for ourselves. I don't like the fact that an arbitrator can decide my fate.
Just my STRONG feelings,
Chris

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Explain to me how Baseball Style Arbitration and Public Opinion work together? Is someone taking a public poll and deciding your fate?

So you agree on a contract that puts your whole career in the hands of an arbitrator if you are unjustly terminated, but God forbid he decide how much you make if you are reinstated? Hmmm....Interesting Philosophy!

 

[RV4]

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On 5/19/2003 12:48:31 AM tbags wrote:

Just curious...aren''t the members THE UNION? Board members, officers, shop stewards and most importantly, the negotiating commitee are elected from the MEMBERSHIP! I don''t understand why us union members try to blame our union in general. Is it not all of us in-departments that are ultimately responsible? If anyone has a better idea, I am happy to listen.

Chris


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The UNION is not to blame, it is the DICTATOR structure and the unwillingnes to allow the members to decide their own fate. This is because the majority would have chosen smaller airline with better pay and benefits and that would be less dues payers.

WE are not the TWU! James C. Little is the TWU! Just ask him.

 

[FWAAA]

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On 5/20/2003 5:15:14 PM RV4 wrote:
The UNION is not to blame, it is the DICTATOR structure and the unwillingnes to allow the members to decide their own fate. This is because the majority would have chosen smaller airline with better pay and benefits and that would be less dues payers.

WE are not the TWU! James C. Little is the TWU! Just ask him.

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Earth to AMFA Dave:

I don''t think smaller airline plus higher paid workforce was one of the choices on the table.

 

[Buck]

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On 5/20/2003 546 PM FWAAA wrote:

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On 5/20/2003 5:15:14 PM RV4 wrote:

The UNION is not to blame, it is the DICTATOR structure and the unwillingnes to allow the members to decide their own fate. This is because the majority would have chosen smaller airline with better pay and benefits and that would be less dues payers.

WE are not the TWU! James C. Little is the TWU! Just ask him.

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Earth to AMFA Dave:

I don''t think smaller airline plus higher paid workforce was one of the choices on the table.

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I am curious.......

Is there something wrong with being compensated equally with my peers in the same industry?

 

[Buck]

Ok your point is that AA was and is in trouble. You seem to fear shrinking the airline and keeping wages and benefits where they were. My peers at UAL did better in bankruptcy than I. Yes many were laid off and do I believe that it would have happened at AA?, yes. But it appears that AA may file anyway. The topic is about mechanic compensation. Should I receive equal compensation as my peers? If it takes structuring all airlines equally, then so be it. I work at the TUL maintenance base and I realize that shrinking to meet it''s competitors could cause TUL to shrink or disappear. The cost would be high, however it would be important to maintain parity with the competitors mechanics.

 

[FWAAA]

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On 5/20/2003 9:17:28 PM Buck wrote:
I am curious.......

Is there something wrong with being compensated equally with my peers in the same industry?

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Gosh, no, there''s nothing "wrong" with it. And you were compensated equally with your peers when AA could afford to (like when cash flow was several million per day Positive instead of Negative, as it has been since late 2001).

And when AA can once again afford to compensate you equally with your peers, then more power to you to demand it and get it.

But sorry to burst any dreams out there, but AA was bleeding itself dry by spending more cash each day than it took in. I know, it''s management''s fault, it''s the cheapass customers'' fault, it''s not your fault. But even though it''s not your fault - AA could no longer afford to pay you what it had been paying.

Foolishly, Carty tried to trim expenses and probably prayed each night that revenue would miraculously return Before he even mentioned the subject of concessions. Too bad for him.

The choices you faced earlier this year were:

(a) accept $1.8 billion in annual wage concessions (which may be more like $2.4 billion or so); OR

(B) reject the concessions and force AA to file Ch 11, causing it to spend hundreds of millions (UAL recorded a $248 million Q1 charge alone for "restructuring expenses") needlessly, all with the prospect of even bigger concessions or contract abrogation.

Shrinking the airline and keeping pay high was simply not one of the choices. It would not have moved AA toward positive cash flow.

Outside advisors counseled the three unions and each concluded that bankruptcy should be avoided. The pilots agreed, the TWU agreed, and after several do-overs and threats, the FAs agreed. And the employees got Carty''s head and a favorable modification to the concessions'' term. Half a dozen posters here are upset and think that a judicial do-over will improve their lot in life. If only it were so easy.

Is it wrong for you to be paid equally? Hell, No. Is it currently possible for AA to pay you equally? Hell, No.

I want every AMR employee to enjoy industry-leading wages. I also want AMR to post another Billion Dollar profit. And I wish AA would order a slew of 747s (or pick them up used from UAL). As we all know, not everything on my wish list in this paragraph is going to happen, ever.

Yep - I wish that AA would just increase fares and right the ship (power held by AA, according to Bob Owens). I wish that Dell would just raise the price of PCs to make even higher profits. And I wish that the value of my house would appreciate even faster than it is. And I wish that AA would increase the size of my J and F meals substantially and serve meals in Y on short flights.

But wishing for something stopped working for me when the tooth fairy last visited my pillow many decades ago.

As I posted the other day - if everyone wants to share in the good times, sometimes you''ve got to share in the bad times. (The last couple of years, for anyone not paying attention, have been the worst two years of AA''s 77 years of existence.) That, or find an employer where there are no "bad times."

 

[FWAAA]

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On 5/20/2003 10:18:11 PM Buck wrote:


Ok your point is that AA was and is in trouble. You seem to fear shrinking the airline and keeping wages and benefits where they were. My peers at UAL did better in bankruptcy than I. Yes many were laid off and do I believe that it would have happened at AA?, yes. But it appears that AA may file anyway. The topic is about mechanic compensation. Should I receive equal compensation as my peers? If it takes structuring all airlines equally, then so be it. I work at the TUL maintenance base and I realize that shrinking to meet it''s competitors could cause TUL to shrink or disappear. The cost would be high, however it would be important to maintain parity with the competitors mechanics. 

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I assumed that by "shrinking the airline" you and AMFA Dave were talking about cutting the whole operation (flights, planes, pilots, FAs, etc). I didn''t think you meant abandoning ALL heavy maintenance (like UAL and the IAM just did with the closure of IND and OAK) so thousands of mechanics would be let go.

Maybe your peers at UAL (the ones not canned) did do better than you even though UAL is in Ch 11. Maybe they didn''t.

Well, anyway - good news for you - you might get to help reinstall those 12 seats on the 757s in the coming 8 months.

As to whether everyone with an A&P should earn the same pay no matter where they work?? Wow. Won''t be easy to ensure that is always the case, but I don''t begrudge you from trying. Sounds like a pretty tall order. Good luck.

 

[atabuy]

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On 5/20/2003 9:17:28 PM Buck wrote:

----------------

On 5/20/2003 546 PM FWAAA wrote:

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On 5/20/2003 5:15:14 PM RV4 wrote:


The UNION is not to blame, it is the DICTATOR structure and the unwillingnes to allow the members to decide their own fate. This is because the majority would have chosen smaller airline with better pay and benefits and that would be less dues payers.


WE are not the TWU! James C. Little is the TWU! Just ask him.


----------------​

Earth to AMFA Dave:


I don''t think smaller airline plus higher paid workforce was one of the choices on the table. 


----------------​

I am curious.......


Is there something wrong with being compensated equally with my peers in the same industry?

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buck,
Peer is a very broad word for mechanics, baseball players, or any other group.
I think it applies to your company but not to other companies because of the extremes in outside influences.

The biggest influence is how wealthy the company is giving out the salaries.
A lot of the peers also took wage cuts. If yours are worse it is because they could not do better.
You could consider yourself equal with all other mechanics if you worked out of one local. You would not work for just one airline, you would work for all of them.
Parity is another word which is tossed around a lot. It makes sense, but you never see it.


Peer

6 entries found.

From Webster''s Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]

Peer Peer v. t.
To be, or to assume to be, equal. [R.]

From Webster''s Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]

Peer Peer, n. [OE. per, OF. per, F. pair, fr. L. par equal.
Cf. {Apparel}, {Pair}, {Par}, n., {Umpire}.]
1. One of the same rank, quality, endowments, character,
etc.; an equal; a match; a mate.

In song he never had his peer. --Dryden.

Shall they consort only with their peers? --I.
Taylor.

2. A comrade; a companion; a fellow; an associate.

He all his peers in beauty did surpass. --Spenser.

3. A nobleman; a member of one of the five degrees of the
British nobility, namely, duke, marquis, earl, viscount,
baron; as, a peer of the realm.

A noble peer of mickle trust and power. --Milton.

{House of Peers}, {The Peers}, the British House of Lords.
See {Parliament}.

{Spiritual peers}, the bishops and archibishops, or lords
spiritual, who sit in the House of Lords.

From Webster''s Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]

Peer Peer, v. i. [imp. & p. p. {Peered}; p. pr. & vb. n.
{Peering}.] [OF. parir, pareir equiv. to F. para[^i]tre to
appear, L. parere. Cf. {Appear}.]
1. To come in sight; to appear. [Poetic]

So honor peereth in the meanest habit. --Shak.

See how his gorget peers above his gown! --B.
Jonson.

2. [Perh. a different word; cf. OE. piren, LG. piren. Cf.
{Pry} to peep.] To look narrowly or curiously or intently;
to peep; as, the peering day. --Milton.

Peering in maps for ports, and piers, and roads.
--Shak.

As if through a dungeon grate he peered.
--Coleridge.

From Webster''s Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]

Peer Peer v. t.
To make equal in rank. [R.] --Heylin.

From WordNet ® 1.7 [wn]

peer
n 1: a person who is of equal standing with another in a group
[syn: {equal}, {match}, {compeer}]
2: (British) a nobleman (duke or marquis or earl or viscount or
baron) who is a member of the British peerage
v : look searchingly; "We peered into the back of the shop to
see whether a salesman was around"

From The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (09 FEB 02) [foldoc]

peer

A unit of communications hardware or software that is on the
same {protocol layer} of a network as another. A common way
of viewing a communications link is as two {protocol stack}s,
which are actually connected only at the very lowest
(physical) layer, but can be regarded as being connected at
each higher layer by virtue of the services provided by the
lower layers. Peer-to-peer communication refers to these real
or virtual connections between corresponding systems in each
layer.

To give a simple example, when two people talk to each other,
the lowest layer is the physical layer which concerns the
sound pressure waves travelling from mouth to ear (so mouths
and ears are peers) the next layer might be the speech and
hearing centres in the people''s brains and the top layer their
cerebellums or minds. Although, barring telepathy, nothing
passes directly between the two minds, there is a peer-to-peer
communication between them.

 

[Checking it Out]

Copied from another site!

Name: wondering
Employer: ual
Location: sfo
Date: Thursday, May 15, 2003
Time: 01:36 PM
Comments
We at United keep getting flyer from the iam saying that amfa promised $25.00 dues, but never followed though. Nobody around here knows how much amfa-represented mechanics at northwest are actually paying per month. Can the bulletin board operator clue us in? Also what is this about a monthly assessment for two years? Thanks for any info.

Sure, our dues for a day shift Mechanic are 57.68 I believe a month before the increase this month. The assessments are different at each local. Some locals are only assessed 5 dollars a month currently and some like Det are voting on a 14-dollar assessment next week at their Association Meeting.

amfa = Higher Dues

while organizing Flight Attendants and Ground Workers at other Airlines!

Mechanics only Union! This was their favorite Chant!

TWU SOLIDARITY!

 

[1AA]

And what does the TWU = ??????

 

[Buck]

I am willing to be responsible for more dues if my compensation is increased.