AA applies for Delta's Seattle-Haneda slot
- Thread starter MAH4546
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WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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and I could accept that argument regarding Asia if you told me that AA was leaving LAX to Asia... but given that they are not and AA still has a major revenue disadvantage, it is a long ways off if ever that AA will be profitable flying to Asia esp. from LAX.
you also want to ignore the fact that AA could not have been profitable in NYC or they would not have pulled down so much capacity.
you also want to ignore the fact that AA could not have been profitable in NYC or they would not have pulled down so much capacity.
AdAstraPerAspera
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WorldTraveler said:
Are you prepared to admit you were wrong when you said Parker wouldn't restore the FA pay scale for nothing?
robbedagain
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- Oct 13, 2003
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no he is not nor will he ever be its too obvious here w all his posts that only dl is superior and can do wrong
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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I already have.
forgive me for not being willing to believe that the same unicorns that you think I believe in don't exist at AA.
and specific to this topic, AA might have rightly forced a review of the use of the HND slots.
Part of that process has got to include a question of why only two cities on the mainland have been able to support daily service to HND.
The US got anything but Open Skies.
I've been accused of being too cynical, but my guess is that the brain trust at the DOT didn't realize that the HND operating restrictions applicable to flights to/from the lower 48 would make the use of HND a practical and financial impossibility. My cynical side further thinks the Japanese gov't did realize it. I understand that HND is a seriously busy airport, but there isn't a four or five runway airport in the world that can't squeeze in a mere FOUR daily landings and departures at any time of day the carriers think is optimal.
Further compounding the difficulty is the way that Japan, and Tokyo in particular, roll up some of the sidewalks late in the evening. The trains don't run all night, making for what I've heard is an extremely expensive cab ride to/from HND for arrivals and departures. Contrast that to SIN (where the subways don't run all night, just like Tokyo) which features extremely affordable taxi rates to the city.
AA's experience from JFK (along with DL's experience from DTW) ably demonstrate that the existing operating restrictions make HND non-viable from time zones other than the Pacific time zone.
Even worse, it's becoming apparent that there aren't actually bazillions of O&D business travelers for whom HND is a vastly superior gateway. Witness JL and NH basically duplicating their NRT hubs at HND, with flights to SIN, BKK, etc. All from an overcrowded airport that Japan tried to replace decades ago (with unimpressive results). Japan's refusal to forcefully evict the NRT-area farmers doomed NRT to expensive white-elephant status, with just a single runway until 2002, and still just one short and one long runway in 2014.
Open Skies - sure the US got Open Skies to Japan. No restrictions on KIX or NGO, and at NRT there are available slots for new service. HND is the exception.
Further compounding the difficulty is the way that Japan, and Tokyo in particular, roll up some of the sidewalks late in the evening. The trains don't run all night, making for what I've heard is an extremely expensive cab ride to/from HND for arrivals and departures. Contrast that to SIN (where the subways don't run all night, just like Tokyo) which features extremely affordable taxi rates to the city.
AA's experience from JFK (along with DL's experience from DTW) ably demonstrate that the existing operating restrictions make HND non-viable from time zones other than the Pacific time zone.
Even worse, it's becoming apparent that there aren't actually bazillions of O&D business travelers for whom HND is a vastly superior gateway. Witness JL and NH basically duplicating their NRT hubs at HND, with flights to SIN, BKK, etc. All from an overcrowded airport that Japan tried to replace decades ago (with unimpressive results). Japan's refusal to forcefully evict the NRT-area farmers doomed NRT to expensive white-elephant status, with just a single runway until 2002, and still just one short and one long runway in 2014.
Open Skies - sure the US got Open Skies to Japan. No restrictions on KIX or NGO, and at NRT there are available slots for new service. HND is the exception.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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I can agree with that.
but let's be very clear that when a dozen or more cities support nonstop service to NRT and yet only 2 mainland cities support service to HND< the problem is slots.
HND is a closer airport but people are not going to choose a closer airport if it means arriving very late at night.
KIX and NGO simply don't amount to enough of a market to be worth anything. MAN and GIG both have more flights than do KIX and NGO from the US mainland. So what for Open Skies to those cities?
Japan intentionally has tried to weaken DL's NRT hub and had hoped that improved HND slots - which most countries got - would help weaken NRT and DL's NRT hub, where DL has a larger share of the NRT-US market than NH or JL.
I don't know what went on behind the scense but I suspect that DL managed to convince the DOT not to accept any improved HND slots because it would further help NH and JL at DL's expense.
The likely outcome and AA, DL, and UA's strategies all seem to validate that they are increasing their flights to other parts of Asia which weaken NRT as a hub for everyone.
The likely outcome is that Tokyo as a connecting hub will be so marginalized in combination with the yen devaluation that Japanese aviation will not be much compared to aviation in other Asian countries.
but let's be very clear that when a dozen or more cities support nonstop service to NRT and yet only 2 mainland cities support service to HND< the problem is slots.
HND is a closer airport but people are not going to choose a closer airport if it means arriving very late at night.
KIX and NGO simply don't amount to enough of a market to be worth anything. MAN and GIG both have more flights than do KIX and NGO from the US mainland. So what for Open Skies to those cities?
Japan intentionally has tried to weaken DL's NRT hub and had hoped that improved HND slots - which most countries got - would help weaken NRT and DL's NRT hub, where DL has a larger share of the NRT-US market than NH or JL.
I don't know what went on behind the scense but I suspect that DL managed to convince the DOT not to accept any improved HND slots because it would further help NH and JL at DL's expense.
The likely outcome and AA, DL, and UA's strategies all seem to validate that they are increasing their flights to other parts of Asia which weaken NRT as a hub for everyone.
The likely outcome is that Tokyo as a connecting hub will be so marginalized in combination with the yen devaluation that Japanese aviation will not be much compared to aviation in other Asian countries.
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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I don't think the runways are the constraint at HND. It's the general lack of terminal space during the day. There are only about 16 daytime international slots for flights over 3000 miles:
BA 8 1 J HND LHR 8:50
SQ 631 1 J HND SIN 9:20
NH 855 1 J HND CGK 10:05
NH 215 1 J HND CDG 10:25
JL 45 1 J HND CDG 10:35
NH 841 1 J HND SIN 11:05
JL 37 1 J HND SIN 11:20
JL 43 1 J HND LHR 11:20
NH 223 1 J HND FRA 11:25
NH 211 1 J HND LHR 11:30
GA 887 1 J HND DPS 11:45
LH 715 1 J HND MUC 12:20
NH 217 1 J HND MUC 12:35
LH 717 1 J HND FRA 14:05
SQ 633 1 J HND SIN 17:10
AC 6 1 J HND YYZ 17:40
None of those went to US carriers. 1 each went to BA, SQ, GA, LH, and AC. The rest went to NH and JL.
Eventually this all changes when the international terminal gets expanded.
BA 8 1 J HND LHR 8:50
SQ 631 1 J HND SIN 9:20
NH 855 1 J HND CGK 10:05
NH 215 1 J HND CDG 10:25
JL 45 1 J HND CDG 10:35
NH 841 1 J HND SIN 11:05
JL 37 1 J HND SIN 11:20
JL 43 1 J HND LHR 11:20
NH 223 1 J HND FRA 11:25
NH 211 1 J HND LHR 11:30
GA 887 1 J HND DPS 11:45
LH 715 1 J HND MUC 12:20
NH 217 1 J HND MUC 12:35
LH 717 1 J HND FRA 14:05
SQ 633 1 J HND SIN 17:10
AC 6 1 J HND YYZ 17:40
None of those went to US carriers. 1 each went to BA, SQ, GA, LH, and AC. The rest went to NH and JL.
Eventually this all changes when the international terminal gets expanded.
Glenn Quagmire
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- Apr 30, 2012
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It sounds like they are are offering a very attractive product with this application.
Noteworthy is the very public, collective support of the unions. Nice move on their part.
I hope AA gets this route and delivers on their promise.
Noteworthy is the very public, collective support of the unions. Nice move on their part.
I hope AA gets this route and delivers on their promise.
Glenn Quagmire
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- Apr 30, 2012
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Downloaded and glossed over. I was equally impressed. I will read it all tomorrow.commavia said:
robbedagain
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- Oct 13, 2003
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no need to read it bec we all know it just wont be good enough per a certain cheerleader I do hope AA gets it.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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- #90
It was expected that AA would put together a route application.
no, the issue is that DL is serving the route based on the award it was given.
AA has made impressive pleas for HND service before, was awarded it from JFK, and has sought it from LAX.
let's see how it plays out but just like the DAL case, I wouldn't rule out DL pushing the issue to court if its SEA-HND route is stripped.
and even if AA gets LAX-HND, it is a virtual certainty that they will terminate LAX-NRT.
no, the issue is that DL is serving the route based on the award it was given.
AA has made impressive pleas for HND service before, was awarded it from JFK, and has sought it from LAX.
let's see how it plays out but just like the DAL case, I wouldn't rule out DL pushing the issue to court if its SEA-HND route is stripped.
and even if AA gets LAX-HND, it is a virtual certainty that they will terminate LAX-NRT.
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