2015 Fleet Service thread

[bob@las-AA]

 

Looked into that famed "BIG STRIKE" (cir.)1992, it still landed the machinist with a paycut, but they were allowed to keep whatever work that was on the chopping block. 

 

[700UW]

Looked in that famed "BIG STRIKE" (cir.)1992, it still landed the machinist with a pay cut, but they were allowed to keep whatever work that was on the chopping block. 

We took concessions for one year, as all groups did.
 
Also 12 months after the effective date, we all got a bonus of 100% of the paycuts we took, and stock options at $15 a share for the same level of paycuts we took.
 
24 months after we got another 100% bonus of the paycuts.
 
You werent even in the industry in 1992, and no we didnt give up anywork and took concessions on our own terms.
 
Ask a PMUS Fleet Service Agent on here what the company did to them in 1992 when they were non-union after ALPA agreed to concessions.
 
Come on short-timer, you havent fought any battles for what your CBA benefits you.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

We're ALL supposed to be Union Brothers and Sisters together.

Supposed to be...... yes.
 
The only problem with your theory is all that "Brother and Sisters together" crap goes right out the window when there is money on the table.
 
How many times have current employees saddled lesser seniority people and new hires with a loss of pay and benefits for retirement packages and raises?
 
You know it's true.
 
 
I stopped subscribing to the "shared sacrifice" theory a long time ago.
 
My responsibility is to my family first, my "brothers and sisters" are secondary.
 
Anybody that says any different is a liar. All you have to do is look at TWU's voting history to see that.
 
 
Would you rather give concessions over and over to keep headcount up or make a decent living?

 

[WeAAsles]

Supposed to be...... yes.
 
The only problem with your theory is all that "Brother and Sisters together" crap goes right out the window when there is money on the table.
 
How many times have current employees saddled lesser seniority people and new hires with a loss of pay and benefits for retirement packages and raises?
 
You know it's true.
 
 
I stopped subscribing to the "shared sacrifice" theory a long time ago.
 
My responsibility is to my family first, my "brothers and sisters" are secondary.
 
Anybody that says any different is a liar. All you have to do is look at TWU's voting history to see that.
 
 
Would you rather give concessions over and over to keep headcount up or make a decent living?

Since it seems you can't resist the urge to try to converse with me, I'll answer this particular question. 

I support balance. I don't support anyone coming in the door and making what I do now. I think everyone should go through the hardships of being lower on that totem poll and supporting the senior members who earned their stripes. But all new hires should have a clear pathway to get to where I am now. If that means 9 years (current TWU) or 12 years (current IAM) I'm fine with either.

I didn't vote on the 95 contract because I didn't understand the contract language being a new hire only in May. Had plenty of people trying to get me to vote a particular way the second I walked in the door though. After awhile though once I understood what Jr FSC meant I completely disagreed with it. Basically had I understood what that 95 contract meant it would have gotten an emphatic NO from me.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Since it seems you can't resist the urge to try to converse with me, I'll answer this particular question. 

I don't like what you have to say, simple as that, no matter which side of your mouth it comes out of.

I think everyone should go through the hardships of being lower on that totem poll and supporting the senior members who earned their stripes. 

So you think it is the function of those "lower on the totem pole" to support senior members?
 
That statement speaks volumes.
 
I assure you after 8 years of employment at American Airlines my goal was not to "support senior members", it was to make a living.
 
Please feel free to vote for a "I got mine" package on your way out the door. After all those "lower on the totem pole" only exist to support you right?

But all new hires should have a clear pathway to get to where I am now. If that means 9 years (current TWU) or 12 years (current IAM) I'm fine with either.

Let's assume an average airline career last about 40 years.
 
You are saying you are fine with someone working almost 25% (or over in the case of IAM) of their career to reach top out pay? In the world of work do you think that is a normal pay progression?

Had plenty of people trying to get me to vote a particular way the second I walked in the door though. 

How many of them called you "UNION brother"?
 
Them trying to get you to vote a certain way is OK though right? I mean after all you were low on the totem pole and only there to support them.

After awhile though once I understood what Jr FSC meant I completely disagreed with it. Basically had I understood what that 95 contract meant it would have gotten an emphatic NO from me.

I am sure it would have....... at the time.

 

[WeAAsles]

I don't like what you have to say, simple as that, no matter which side of your mouth it comes out of.

Well I guess on social media sites it's quite ok to say that you don't like someone you have never met face to face and of course say things you never would say to that face in person?

 
So you think it is the function of those "lower on the totem pole" to support senior members?

YES absolutely 100% just like I did for 8 years. I guess you think you should have walked in the door topped out then?
 
That statement speaks volumes.
 
I assure you after 8 years of employment at American Airlines my goal was not to "support senior members", it was to make a living.

Your personal goal was and is always your own. But your 8 years of employment did support those higher up then you just like if you had stayed the people below you would have been supporting you as well.
 
Please feel free to vote for a "I got mine" package on your way out the door. After all those "lower on the totem pole" only exist to support you right?
Let's assume an average airline career last about 40 years.

If everyone who walked in the door was payed the top wage, then we'd ALL be making much less than we are currently. Unless you believe in some parallel Universe $24.00 per hour for an inexperienced new hire is reasonable? Payscales exist in all Union contracts bro. 
 
You are saying you are fine with someone working almost 25% (or over in the case of IAM) of their career to reach top out pay? In the world of work do you think that is a normal pay progression?
How many of them called you "UNION brother"?

YES absolutely 100%. A guy stepping in the door today let's say is 22 Years old. By the time he tops out at 34 he will probably be making well over $70,000 per year. The average age a man starts a family is about 34 years old. 

Again you think the new hire who walks in the door tomorrow should be making $50,000 per year maybe straight out of High School? Whoa boy bro.
 
Them trying to get you to vote a certain way is OK though right? I mean after all you were low on the totem pole and only there to support them.
I am sure it would have....... at the time.

Absolutely it's ok for them to try to advocate to get me to vote a certain way. They were considering their own personal best interests or opinions just like you have stated here that I guess you wish I had voted no right?

I think you're only mad at me because I got in the door before you did and was never a Junior? If that's the case I'm certainly not going to apologize to you for that. 

 

[Worldport]

Guys here's my dream. I'd like to see the days come back where no one but us touches that aircraft when it comes to the gate. Cabin, fueling and catering all food and supplies.

It used to be that way.

At this point I don't want those jobs back if it it's going to dilute my pay and bring more dues to the union. Getting those jobs back will probably mean a pay cut down the line. Screw that. Let's worry about keeping the jobs we have. Weaasles stop trying to employ the world .not all of us are single we have families to support

 

[WeAAsles]

At this point I don't want those jobs back if it it's going to dilute my pay and bring more dues to the union. Getting those jobs back will probably mean a pay cut down the line. Screw that. Let's worry about keeping the jobs we have. Weaasles stop trying to employ the world .not all of us are single we have families to support

You have the wrong idea. I absolutely do not support gaining any of our old jobs back if it's going to dilute our pay or I might add our benefits as well.

And if before the end of our career (I doubt it) the company ever roles through BK court again they're pretty much going to be able to cut whatever they want to anyway. Be that pay, jobs, or both.

 

[700UW]

You do realize the cleaning jobs would go to maintenance as that is how the NMB ruled and we already have 50 in base, line is outsourced.

We have 1,000 Utility on layoff at US.

So it wouldn't effect what Fleet gets.

 

[WeAAsles]

You do realize the cleaning jobs would go to maintenance as that is how the NMB ruled and we already have 50 in base, line is outsourced.
We have 1,000 Utility on layoff at US.
So it wouldn't effect what Fleet gets.

I think there are some jobs that can be taken back out of the hands of the vendors now that AA can certainly afford it. Primarily any job that can effect the customer experience.

Another video just came out today of vendors stealing things out of customers bags again. This time in Orlando.

All people have the ability to be thieves but I don't think better paid people are as willing to take the risk?

 

[WeAAsles]

Back to that payscale progression conversation.

Here is the progression for the FA's. 13 Years to reach TOS

https://www.apfa.org/images/jcba/122314/Section-03.pdf

Here is the progression for the CWA Agents. 12 Years to reach TOS

http://american-agents.org/app/uploads/2015/11/article-36-v2.pdf

US side Fleet. 12 years to TOS.

http://www.iam141.org/us/docs/IAM-FS2014-10-7-14-4-3.pdf

UAL Fleet. 10 years to TOS

  http://www.iam141.org/docs/2013-2016%20FLEET%20SERVICE%20EMPLOYEES.pdf

SWA Fleet. 11 years to TOS

http://www.twu.org/Portals/0/AirContracts/sw_RampCBA.pdf

And finally AA TWU Fleet. 9 years to TOS

http://www.twu.org/Portals/0/AirContracts/aa_FleetServiceAgreement.pdf

It seems to me that the argument just attempted to be made to me that the payscale system is unfair, doesn't seem to be supported by the rest of the industry either.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Well I guess on social media sites it's quite ok to say that you don't like someone you have never met face to face and of course say things you never would say to that face in person?
 
I did not say I don't like you. I said I don't like what you have to say. But, your right.... I don't like you. Your post history made sure of that.
 
 
YES absolutely 100% just like I did for 8 years. I guess you think you should have walked in the door topped out then?
 
When you have the "I got mine" crowd selling out new hires and less senior employees it goes beyond just pay scale.
 
 
Your personal goal was and is always your own. But your 8 years of employment did support those higher up then you just like if you had stayed the people below you would have been supporting you as well.
 
I don't need anyone to support me. I have been very successful post UNION negotiating for myself. I surpassed all pay and benefits in 2 years working for my new employer. I didn't feel I needed to lower someones else's living standard to get it either. 
 
 
If everyone who walked in the door was payed the top wage, then we'd ALL be making much less than we are currently. Unless you believe in some parallel Universe $24.00 per hour for an inexperienced new hire is reasonable? Payscales exist in all Union contracts bro.
 
You are making much less currently anyway selling concessions for jobs.
 
I have never heard of any other job category outside of an airline that takes 9 years to top out. Ever. I looked at a lot of UNION apprenticeship programs before making this post and I did not find ONE with over a 5 year top out. I challenge you to find any other payscale for any job outside of the airline industry with a 9 year top out. You do that and I will never bring it up again.
 
 
YES absolutely 100%. A guy stepping in the door today let's say is 22 Years old. By the time he tops out at 34 he will probably be making well over $70,000 per year. The average age a man starts a family is about 34 years old.
Again you think the new hire who walks in the door tomorrow should be making $50,000 per year maybe straight out of High School? Whoa boy bro.
 
IF he manages to retain employment that long in an industry known for layoffs and station closures. After all, my employment was terminated after 12 years. Not to mention the job is not marketable outside of the airline industry. If my current employer were to lay me off I could use the skill I developed to apply somewhere else for like or better pay. Can you? Your situation if they close your station is to move or lose your job and start all over. That risk should be figured into your compensation ask. 
 
If I am to tie my employment to an employer prone to layoffs and closures and work a job that is not marketable outside of a heavily UNIONized industry (where if I changed employers I would have to start all over) I want to be COMPENSATED for that risk.
 
That theoretical 34 year old you mentioned starting his family could just as easily have his station closed and have to start all over trying to find a job, which would be difficult, because he never developed a marketable job skill. What did he get for his 9 year investment? A hard lesson.
 
I speak from experience because that is exactly what happened to me. Fortunately I had the foresight to go to school. I recovered in less than 2 years but not everyone is going to be able to accomplish that.
 
 
Absolutely it's ok for them to try to advocate to get me to vote a certain way. They were considering their own personal best interests or opinions just like you have stated here that I guess you wish I had voted no right?
 
Exactly. That "Brothers and Sisters together" crap goes right out the window when there is money on the table. Just as I said before. I am never going to vote to take a personal loss to pad someone else's pocket.
 
 
 
I think you're only mad at me because I got in the door before you did and was never a Junior? If that's the case I'm certainly not going to apologize to you for that.
 
I was Junior for a very short period of time. I hired in LATE 2000. There is no bitterness, only an observation that there exist a "double standard" within the UNION. The only offense I take is the theory (which you propagate) that I am there to support THEM.

 
Worldport, on 13 Mar 2016 - 2:21 PM, said:
At this point I don't want those jobs back if it it's going to dilute my pay and bring more dues to the union. Getting those jobs back will probably mean a pay cut down the line. Screw that. Let's worry about keeping the jobs we have. Weaasles stop trying to employ the world .not all of us are single we have families to support
 
Are you seeing this WeAAsles? This is what your "concessions for jobs" gets you.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Back to that payscale progression conversation.

Here is the progression for the FA's. 13 Years to reach TOS

https://www.apfa.org/images/jcba/122314/Section-03.pdf

Here is the progression for the CWA Agents. 12 Years to reach TOS

http://american-agents.org/app/uploads/2015/11/article-36-v2.pdf

US side Fleet. 12 years to TOS.

http://www.iam141.org/us/docs/IAM-FS2014-10-7-14-4-3.pdf

UAL Fleet. 10 years to TOS

  http://www.iam141.org/docs/2013-2016%20FLEET%20SERVICE%20EMPLOYEES.pdf

SWA Fleet. 11 years to TOS

http://www.twu.org/Portals/0/AirContracts/sw_RampCBA.pdf

And finally AA TWU Fleet. 9 years to TOS

http://www.twu.org/Portals/0/AirContracts/aa_FleetServiceAgreement.pdf
It seems to me that the argument just attempted to be made to me that the payscale system is unfair, doesn't seem to be supported by the rest of the industry either.

Read my above post. That is my response.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
Worldport, on 13 Mar 2016 - 2:21 PM, said:
At this point I don't want those jobs back if it it's going to dilute my pay and bring more dues to the union. Getting those jobs back will probably mean a pay cut down the line. Screw that. Let's worry about keeping the jobs we have. Weaasles stop trying to employ the world .not all of us are single we have families to support
 
Are you seeing this WeAAsles? This is what your "concessions for jobs" gets you.

I did respond to Worldport just in case you didn't notice. But something maybe for you to consider.

Had we decided in 03 not to give financial concessions to save jobs and our pensions, you would have been gone that year. Had you finished your schooling yet?

If you're trying to give the members on here your own personal life lesson, that's fantastic. Bravo and thank you. But in reality we all choose our own roads. You chose yours and apparently at least you claim it was the right one. The rest of us chose the road we are traveling on and personally at least speaking for myself I'm very satisfied for the most part with my choice. 

 

[700UW]

He left AA and took free taxpayer money that paid for his training.