A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
- 3,358
- 2,319
Thank you!nycbusdriver said:
2014 Pilot Discussion
- Thread starter Falcon
- Start date
- Status
nevergiveup
Veteran
- Nov 30, 2010
- 2,125
- 2,148
I do not expect the company's proposal to be passed, especially since they do not want to let us vote on it. This could mean a lot of new upgrades on the east, more lines, more new hires, and still a raise after Delta gets their new rates....and we don't have to give up anything!
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
- 3,358
- 2,319
So far, DFW and LAX reps intend for you to vote. There may be others. That is what I saw at first glance.nevergiveup said:
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
- 3,358
- 2,319
The CLT and PHL rep election results are out...
nycbusdriver said:
1) Neither of us do nyc, and no personal disrespect is aimed or intended at your opinions. I'd say we've earned them over time. Each of us, and indeed all of us, must do as we best see fit.
2) The devil always hides within the details, or complete lack of in this case (what's at all "new" there?) and "Kirby's letter" is no more a detailed contract offering than is his utterly magnificent pink wig and purple tutu ensemble. Both should reasonably be viewed and considered through the same lens and with the same credibility. Manufacturing some carefully contrived and purely emotional response is the stock-in-trade of far too many contemporary managements. When the sad likes of Glass are involved; it's historically proved a sure bet that wholesale connivance and "world class" thieving BS's involved. What's NOT known or fully understood is intentionally made so for a reason. Heck...when's the last time anyone even saw a car commerical that said really ANYthing substantial about the actual car, versus promising some incredible fantasy lifestyle, filled only with healthy, smiling and laughing people to be had from buying it? In my opinion it's unwise for any people with many years yet to go to succumb to a brief bribe and buy off on anything that's even the least bit concessionary at this point in time, much less for them to lose the opportunity to enter section 6 negotions for who really knows how long? The answer to that is as long as management could get away with it. I'd at least suggest that all concerned should properly demand full and very specific details before casting any votes.
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
A320 Driver said:
Nelson was in the CLT crew room this weekend and said "this needs to be voted on by the pilots".
traderjake said:
A great idea Ms Pelosi, but umm...Would you kindly tell us all just exactly what's really "in it" before anyone gets overly excited about having to "pass it" just "to find out", at least this time?...Or is that just too much effort to ever ask?
"Shirley" any and all great cheerleaders for an immediate vote must necessarilly be able to at least describe, point by point, exactly what lasting effects on even days off alone this will have?...Vacation durations and scheduling?... Work days per month versus the current?...Changes in company access to reserve pilots?...How about even reductions in the needed pilot force?...The actually expected changes to W2's, versus single-mindedly focusing on hourly gains alone? Perhaps just even how much this would change the timeline for future section 6 accessibility?...No?....No clue? Does anyone, outside of management that is, honestly even have half a clue?
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
Subject: Business Intelligence Update
John,
Hopefully, after all of the USAPA Reps other than Dave Simmons have expressed their disagreement with your actions, you have come to an understanding on how ill-conceived and poorly timed your unilateral actions were regarding the USAPA BI update on the latest Kirby proposal.
While you are certainly entitled to your opinion and have the right to promote that opinion, it was highly inappropriate to use USAPA to do so.
Now on to some of the inaccuracies in your Business Intelligence update:
1) Paragraph #4 In less than one-year post-AA bankruptcy exit, we, the New American pilots have before us - we are not New American pilots. Read the side of the airplanes you flyespecially the ones painted in American livery (read the fine printOperated by US Airways). Take a look at your payroll check, the MTA-US version, the seniority list, your uniform, A/C registration and listen to the PAs made by the FAs, etc. John, whats your Occupational date with American?
2) Paragraph #4 as I will provide in this overview, we have established parity with our peers in many facets of our working agreement, including an industry standard Scope clause, which now positions us very securely in the Pattern Bargaining arena - for the first time in decades - There are many many areas in our working agreement in which we are not at parity with our peerslike pay (all A/C including EMB-190), vacation, aircraft grouping (AB 321), rig, health benefits, etc. How do you propose we use Pattern Bargaining to improve our scope? Give me an example of how we reign-in Scope Exception: Code sharing with Domestic Air Carriers; Trans-border or Joint ventures? Paragraph 4 was full of more you know what than a Christmas Gooseyou failed to establish any of the assertions you made. It was simply self-promotion, lacked critical thinking, and was designed to mislead pilots.
3) Paragraph #5 - This brief is written in response to the overwhelming requests I have received from the line pilots - John, your update was not a brief. Other than you telling us you have had overwhelming requests what proof can you provide? Why would pilots go to you for information? You are no longer involved in negotiations and havent been involved for some time, at the request of the APA. John, this assertion as to why you wrote this update makes no sense and is unbelievable. You wrote this because you are trying to sell the deal (or worse) just like you did the MOU, which IMHO left us exposed, at risk, and woefully under compensated compared to our Brothers at AA. Please let the new Union (APA) do their job without interference. Its as if youre working with Kirby!
4) Your *Note This is not a briefing from a person with firsthand knowledge in the ongoing negotiationsThis fact makes the information you provided, hearsay. Does your data include the APAs confidential valuations? Is the Company providing you with information to carry their water, or are you only relying on the company press releases? John, why not let the APA do the informing? I agree they have been slow and have been lacking in specific details, but you, are not in a position to provide that information. There is no crisis here.
5) A commitment from management that, with a finalized agreementwould become effective Dec. 1, 2014 regardless of the actual effective date of the JCBA. .. 12/23/2014 update Must Ratify by January3, 2015 John, thank you for highlighting that the Company has not kept their word! Shocking! You kind of glossed over that though. And we are to sign onto an agreement without finalized languageagain? They have failed to keep their commitment thereby creating a deadlinetypical negotiating tactic from Jerold Glass. Remember the credit card processors threat during bankruptcy?
6) Paragraph #7 Where is this November Comprehensive Company proposal for our consideration? Does it contain final language? Do you have a copy?
The Company honors the (TAs), and Agreements negotiated with the Association Do they have an option to not honor these agreements under the RLA? This statement is imbecilic.
The Company offers compensation that adds a (net) additional $1.5 Billion dollars above the required economic box of the MOU/MTA Prove it. Lets see some of that data! These are the Companys numbers, which cannot be substantiated by anyone because no one knows what Delta pilots will receive. With a parity review in a year there is not a defined economic box of the MTA therefore these number promoted by you and the Company are bogus.
This proposal positions American pilots with the highest pay rates in the industry. John, did you calculate in the profit sharing for the others? Pesky details. Even if your and Scott Kirbys assertions were true, how long would it remain so? The Company pulled the (5 Seat) request, but then tried a slight of hand by moving large RJ to a smaller RJ category, which would have given more relief than the 5 seats. So strong feedback works? Your scope chart (Source: APA Contract Comparison) fails to show the EMB-190 factor. 18 months after the SOC, all EMB-190 can come to US Airways PilotsAA Pilots or bothwho needs scope protection when you have those airplanes at those rates (thats a joke John J its never enough with these guys) ?
7) the pilots could lose up to $300 Million dollars in retro pay alone as a result of arbitration. John, its not the Arbitration (that you helped negotiate in the MOU) that will cause the loss of a unsubstantiated dollar (its not 300 million) figure per dayIts the MOU that put us in a position with very little to no leverage other than what were willing to sell now for 30 pieces of silver. This is where we need good data and debate from the APA.
8) Your chart is in error. There should be no rates for United past 2017. There should be no rate for the MTA past 2018. Delta rates flat line after your guesstimate of 10% in 2016, which contemplates no increase for the Delta pilots built in to their agreement. If we are being offered 27% why so stingy on Delta rates at 10% and showing no further increase during their duration? In addition to the above faults in your chart, you attempt to skew the optics by the scale you set in the pay rate axis. After you fix the above issues start with zero and make it proportionate.
9) First - we do not know what the outcome of arbitration constrained by the MTA economics will yield. Yes we dono economicsnothing to gain, nothing to lose relative to the MTA. Why did you accept Arbitration in the MOU if youre so fearful of it now? Wheres the boogeyman in Arbitration? John, there is no economics to Arbitrate forThats what you all agreed to.
10) Second the outcome of Deltas negotiations is unknown. True Do you think Anderson will delay, thereby giving Parker an advantage on pilot cost for three years. Think about it! What did he do with the FAs? You mention patterned bargaining earlier, if we drop the parity increase for an early raise we just handed Delta and Anderson a reason and advantage for dragging out increases for the Delta pilots! Now thats good for our competitor and bad for the profession Conversely, we take the parity review forcing Anderson to pony up sooner so Parker wont have a long term advantage. Is it a gambleabsolutely, is it a risky one, after factoring in not giving the concessions requested? No.
11) John, if these items are TAed why would they become the subject of Arbitration now? Is this a scare tactic or was there some purpose for your very long chart of TAed, agreed to and Company proposed? Are you inferring that all of these go away in arbitration?
12) After Midnight Simulator to be used only for takeoff and landing currency when no other time slot available. Will most likely only be needed in the event we realize significant Group 4 growths John, Im in training now and the Ground School instructor has advised us that the new AA simulator times are having a major impact on scheduling. Group 4 growth? Since we didnt give Kirby the 5 seats (thats a joke JohnJ), accordingly, there will be no need for growth of group 4 Aircraft. They can use OneWorld Asian carriers on the cheap. How about they come to us when they make that shiny new larger group 4 aircraft order and the APA can accommodate their training needs at that time?
13) Excise Tax Otherwise know as (Obama Care-Cadillac Tax issue) that MIGHT take affect by 2018-2022 John, if there was a BI Committee this would have been a good subject to bring forward to the pilots as an education piece, not an opinion piece or how about, fuel hedging and how the lack of fuel hedges are giving Parker an advantage over Delta? Starting in 2018, Obamacare imposes a 40% tax on the cost of individual health plans above $10,200 for individuals and $27,500 for family coverage. These thresholds are indexed to inflation.
In evaluating these dreaded thresholds, both employer and worker contributions are included. The tax is decidedly punitive. The tax applies to every dollar above those thresholds. Like a cliff, the dollars are taxed at a 40% rate. Whats more, the tax is not deductible by the employer. John, the Company already reduced the benefit this year with a HDHP. Did you not notice? I went to my wifes plan at Delta for the first time in 25 years as her plan beat ours on benefits and cost. We were on her plan at Western 26 years ago when the law required the plan to cover based on birth month of the year for spouses. For the last 25 years US Airways plan was superior not this year. Once again, if its another MIGHT, why is the Company asking for it now? Doesnt that might cut both ways? John, this is a hedge Parker is taking at our continued and escalating expense.
14) 3-month (Quarterly) Vacancy Bidding Legacy AA currently bids monthly - Legacy US has no monthly requirement. What?
15) Extend the contract one extra year -with an additional 3% pay raise on Jan. 1, 2019. There has been no explanation thus far from the BOD as to why this is not acceptable. John, are you kidding? The only real leverage we will ever have is under section 6 and an open contract. Our leverage is the threat of, and ability to seek self-help, which should motivate the Company in negotiating improved Scope, pay, working conditions and benefits. The MOU emasculated that leverage. Now in the best of economic times for this industry, we prolong the contract duration, while giving away a parity review and 3.5% raises? Who are you working for? The Union has a responsibility to all the Pilotsnot just those retiring in the next 5 years because under this agreement, it will be another 8 to 10 years before anyone at AA or US will ever see another contract. Another huge deficiency in the MOU was the lack of raises beyond the amendable date. You would have thought we would have learned our lesson. There is zero incentive built into the MTA/MOU to conduct and conclude negotiations after the amendable date. Ill be gone, but why would we do that to the pilots behind us? Ladder up!
16) Reserve report currently stands that the new language would be Short Call pilots will report promptly after assignment/award of a sequence (same as Delta) as opposed to the LAA reasonably available by surface transportation and a much the more restrictive LUS (East 90 mins.) & (West 2 hr.) requirement. John, East 90 mins is not a call-out time. You once again misrepresent the facts. On the East, we have to be within 90 minutes (normal drive time) of your domicile while on reserve. The normal drive time was further defined in our old LAX domicile to be 90 miles. There is no requirement to report within 90 minutes! It is understood that you may not be home when that call comes in, but as long as you are within the 90 you are covered. Theres a lot of history here and it worked well with discipline only coming at a pilot when they failed their obligation. Additionally, LOA 93 contemplates a 3 hour report time as to when the Company can bypass a pilot. What you have written can be damaging to an East reserve pilot in a discipline case and weakens current negotiations. The proposed ambiguous language would give the Company an advantage in arbitrationhavent we learned about bad language yet? It needs to be clean and concise. This is kicking the can and will be detrimental to pilots, its far from a solution.
17) International/Domestic Fence Have the ability to mix international and domestic flying in our trips sequences. What? No data or calculations on how many jobs this would create on the East or reduce at AA? Based on your research, what is this valued at?
18) 321 Pay - Currently grouped in Category 2 at LUS as a result of bankruptcy. Based on the number of seats, should be Group 3 pay. AB 321s along with the EMB 190 are your growth airplanes John not group 4 as suggested in your brief. LUS wasnt in bankruptcy. We had a provision in our legacy contract that was called Change of Control which provided significant leverage. That provision would have raised our pay rates above where they would be under this proposal. At a minimum moving the 321 to group 3 was attainable. Please dont blame bankruptcy for USAPAs failures.
19) Although labeled a comprehensive proposal, this presentation lacks meaningful detail that the line pilot can understand, and is void of any useable economic comparators. John, where is the November Company Comprehensive proposal you referenced? After reading your brief the same could be said for your presentation.
20) Furthermore, with this offer REJECTED and the JCBA now forwarded to arbitration for conclusion, there seems to be no articulated plan as to
how to capture the economic losses an arbitration process will surely provide. John, once again, its the MOU that will have caused these losses not the Arbitration that was negotiated for in the MOU. How soon do you expect a plan to be articulated by the APA? Kirbys letter was dated December 23rd and your BI brief was dated the 24th Did Kirby give you a heads-up? Patience my boy, patienceyoull be able to vote soon enough, or does the MOU take away that right?
John, like we say in the cockpit, no information is better than bad information. Not only was your USAPA Business Intelligence update inappropriate, it was chalked full of bad information and regurgitated doctored charts. Im waiting for more details from my Union before I form my own conclusions on the latest Company offer, but for nowMy Union speaks for me! As I said in the Last Grievance update If each pilot makes his union decisions based on whats best for the group and the profession instead of self-interest, we will succeed.
The next few years will be the best of economic times for this industrythats why Parker doesnt want to share the profits. The APA will have many challenges in dealing with their savior. Like most things in life, they will have to experience it to believe it. There are real opportunities for us to move forward with the profession and the best way to do that is with Unity and one voiceand thats APAs voice!
Thanks for your passion and time, but please use the proper venue to express your thoughts and opinions.
Dave
John,
Hopefully, after all of the USAPA Reps other than Dave Simmons have expressed their disagreement with your actions, you have come to an understanding on how ill-conceived and poorly timed your unilateral actions were regarding the USAPA BI update on the latest Kirby proposal.
While you are certainly entitled to your opinion and have the right to promote that opinion, it was highly inappropriate to use USAPA to do so.
Now on to some of the inaccuracies in your Business Intelligence update:
1) Paragraph #4 In less than one-year post-AA bankruptcy exit, we, the New American pilots have before us - we are not New American pilots. Read the side of the airplanes you flyespecially the ones painted in American livery (read the fine printOperated by US Airways). Take a look at your payroll check, the MTA-US version, the seniority list, your uniform, A/C registration and listen to the PAs made by the FAs, etc. John, whats your Occupational date with American?
2) Paragraph #4 as I will provide in this overview, we have established parity with our peers in many facets of our working agreement, including an industry standard Scope clause, which now positions us very securely in the Pattern Bargaining arena - for the first time in decades - There are many many areas in our working agreement in which we are not at parity with our peerslike pay (all A/C including EMB-190), vacation, aircraft grouping (AB 321), rig, health benefits, etc. How do you propose we use Pattern Bargaining to improve our scope? Give me an example of how we reign-in Scope Exception: Code sharing with Domestic Air Carriers; Trans-border or Joint ventures? Paragraph 4 was full of more you know what than a Christmas Gooseyou failed to establish any of the assertions you made. It was simply self-promotion, lacked critical thinking, and was designed to mislead pilots.
3) Paragraph #5 - This brief is written in response to the overwhelming requests I have received from the line pilots - John, your update was not a brief. Other than you telling us you have had overwhelming requests what proof can you provide? Why would pilots go to you for information? You are no longer involved in negotiations and havent been involved for some time, at the request of the APA. John, this assertion as to why you wrote this update makes no sense and is unbelievable. You wrote this because you are trying to sell the deal (or worse) just like you did the MOU, which IMHO left us exposed, at risk, and woefully under compensated compared to our Brothers at AA. Please let the new Union (APA) do their job without interference. Its as if youre working with Kirby!
4) Your *Note This is not a briefing from a person with firsthand knowledge in the ongoing negotiationsThis fact makes the information you provided, hearsay. Does your data include the APAs confidential valuations? Is the Company providing you with information to carry their water, or are you only relying on the company press releases? John, why not let the APA do the informing? I agree they have been slow and have been lacking in specific details, but you, are not in a position to provide that information. There is no crisis here.
5) A commitment from management that, with a finalized agreementwould become effective Dec. 1, 2014 regardless of the actual effective date of the JCBA. .. 12/23/2014 update Must Ratify by January3, 2015 John, thank you for highlighting that the Company has not kept their word! Shocking! You kind of glossed over that though. And we are to sign onto an agreement without finalized languageagain? They have failed to keep their commitment thereby creating a deadlinetypical negotiating tactic from Jerold Glass. Remember the credit card processors threat during bankruptcy?
6) Paragraph #7 Where is this November Comprehensive Company proposal for our consideration? Does it contain final language? Do you have a copy?
The Company honors the (TAs), and Agreements negotiated with the Association Do they have an option to not honor these agreements under the RLA? This statement is imbecilic.
The Company offers compensation that adds a (net) additional $1.5 Billion dollars above the required economic box of the MOU/MTA Prove it. Lets see some of that data! These are the Companys numbers, which cannot be substantiated by anyone because no one knows what Delta pilots will receive. With a parity review in a year there is not a defined economic box of the MTA therefore these number promoted by you and the Company are bogus.
This proposal positions American pilots with the highest pay rates in the industry. John, did you calculate in the profit sharing for the others? Pesky details. Even if your and Scott Kirbys assertions were true, how long would it remain so? The Company pulled the (5 Seat) request, but then tried a slight of hand by moving large RJ to a smaller RJ category, which would have given more relief than the 5 seats. So strong feedback works? Your scope chart (Source: APA Contract Comparison) fails to show the EMB-190 factor. 18 months after the SOC, all EMB-190 can come to US Airways PilotsAA Pilots or bothwho needs scope protection when you have those airplanes at those rates (thats a joke John J its never enough with these guys) ?
7) the pilots could lose up to $300 Million dollars in retro pay alone as a result of arbitration. John, its not the Arbitration (that you helped negotiate in the MOU) that will cause the loss of a unsubstantiated dollar (its not 300 million) figure per dayIts the MOU that put us in a position with very little to no leverage other than what were willing to sell now for 30 pieces of silver. This is where we need good data and debate from the APA.
8) Your chart is in error. There should be no rates for United past 2017. There should be no rate for the MTA past 2018. Delta rates flat line after your guesstimate of 10% in 2016, which contemplates no increase for the Delta pilots built in to their agreement. If we are being offered 27% why so stingy on Delta rates at 10% and showing no further increase during their duration? In addition to the above faults in your chart, you attempt to skew the optics by the scale you set in the pay rate axis. After you fix the above issues start with zero and make it proportionate.
9) First - we do not know what the outcome of arbitration constrained by the MTA economics will yield. Yes we dono economicsnothing to gain, nothing to lose relative to the MTA. Why did you accept Arbitration in the MOU if youre so fearful of it now? Wheres the boogeyman in Arbitration? John, there is no economics to Arbitrate forThats what you all agreed to.
10) Second the outcome of Deltas negotiations is unknown. True Do you think Anderson will delay, thereby giving Parker an advantage on pilot cost for three years. Think about it! What did he do with the FAs? You mention patterned bargaining earlier, if we drop the parity increase for an early raise we just handed Delta and Anderson a reason and advantage for dragging out increases for the Delta pilots! Now thats good for our competitor and bad for the profession Conversely, we take the parity review forcing Anderson to pony up sooner so Parker wont have a long term advantage. Is it a gambleabsolutely, is it a risky one, after factoring in not giving the concessions requested? No.
11) John, if these items are TAed why would they become the subject of Arbitration now? Is this a scare tactic or was there some purpose for your very long chart of TAed, agreed to and Company proposed? Are you inferring that all of these go away in arbitration?
12) After Midnight Simulator to be used only for takeoff and landing currency when no other time slot available. Will most likely only be needed in the event we realize significant Group 4 growths John, Im in training now and the Ground School instructor has advised us that the new AA simulator times are having a major impact on scheduling. Group 4 growth? Since we didnt give Kirby the 5 seats (thats a joke JohnJ), accordingly, there will be no need for growth of group 4 Aircraft. They can use OneWorld Asian carriers on the cheap. How about they come to us when they make that shiny new larger group 4 aircraft order and the APA can accommodate their training needs at that time?
13) Excise Tax Otherwise know as (Obama Care-Cadillac Tax issue) that MIGHT take affect by 2018-2022 John, if there was a BI Committee this would have been a good subject to bring forward to the pilots as an education piece, not an opinion piece or how about, fuel hedging and how the lack of fuel hedges are giving Parker an advantage over Delta? Starting in 2018, Obamacare imposes a 40% tax on the cost of individual health plans above $10,200 for individuals and $27,500 for family coverage. These thresholds are indexed to inflation.
In evaluating these dreaded thresholds, both employer and worker contributions are included. The tax is decidedly punitive. The tax applies to every dollar above those thresholds. Like a cliff, the dollars are taxed at a 40% rate. Whats more, the tax is not deductible by the employer. John, the Company already reduced the benefit this year with a HDHP. Did you not notice? I went to my wifes plan at Delta for the first time in 25 years as her plan beat ours on benefits and cost. We were on her plan at Western 26 years ago when the law required the plan to cover based on birth month of the year for spouses. For the last 25 years US Airways plan was superior not this year. Once again, if its another MIGHT, why is the Company asking for it now? Doesnt that might cut both ways? John, this is a hedge Parker is taking at our continued and escalating expense.
14) 3-month (Quarterly) Vacancy Bidding Legacy AA currently bids monthly - Legacy US has no monthly requirement. What?
15) Extend the contract one extra year -with an additional 3% pay raise on Jan. 1, 2019. There has been no explanation thus far from the BOD as to why this is not acceptable. John, are you kidding? The only real leverage we will ever have is under section 6 and an open contract. Our leverage is the threat of, and ability to seek self-help, which should motivate the Company in negotiating improved Scope, pay, working conditions and benefits. The MOU emasculated that leverage. Now in the best of economic times for this industry, we prolong the contract duration, while giving away a parity review and 3.5% raises? Who are you working for? The Union has a responsibility to all the Pilotsnot just those retiring in the next 5 years because under this agreement, it will be another 8 to 10 years before anyone at AA or US will ever see another contract. Another huge deficiency in the MOU was the lack of raises beyond the amendable date. You would have thought we would have learned our lesson. There is zero incentive built into the MTA/MOU to conduct and conclude negotiations after the amendable date. Ill be gone, but why would we do that to the pilots behind us? Ladder up!
16) Reserve report currently stands that the new language would be Short Call pilots will report promptly after assignment/award of a sequence (same as Delta) as opposed to the LAA reasonably available by surface transportation and a much the more restrictive LUS (East 90 mins.) & (West 2 hr.) requirement. John, East 90 mins is not a call-out time. You once again misrepresent the facts. On the East, we have to be within 90 minutes (normal drive time) of your domicile while on reserve. The normal drive time was further defined in our old LAX domicile to be 90 miles. There is no requirement to report within 90 minutes! It is understood that you may not be home when that call comes in, but as long as you are within the 90 you are covered. Theres a lot of history here and it worked well with discipline only coming at a pilot when they failed their obligation. Additionally, LOA 93 contemplates a 3 hour report time as to when the Company can bypass a pilot. What you have written can be damaging to an East reserve pilot in a discipline case and weakens current negotiations. The proposed ambiguous language would give the Company an advantage in arbitrationhavent we learned about bad language yet? It needs to be clean and concise. This is kicking the can and will be detrimental to pilots, its far from a solution.
17) International/Domestic Fence Have the ability to mix international and domestic flying in our trips sequences. What? No data or calculations on how many jobs this would create on the East or reduce at AA? Based on your research, what is this valued at?
18) 321 Pay - Currently grouped in Category 2 at LUS as a result of bankruptcy. Based on the number of seats, should be Group 3 pay. AB 321s along with the EMB 190 are your growth airplanes John not group 4 as suggested in your brief. LUS wasnt in bankruptcy. We had a provision in our legacy contract that was called Change of Control which provided significant leverage. That provision would have raised our pay rates above where they would be under this proposal. At a minimum moving the 321 to group 3 was attainable. Please dont blame bankruptcy for USAPAs failures.
19) Although labeled a comprehensive proposal, this presentation lacks meaningful detail that the line pilot can understand, and is void of any useable economic comparators. John, where is the November Company Comprehensive proposal you referenced? After reading your brief the same could be said for your presentation.
20) Furthermore, with this offer REJECTED and the JCBA now forwarded to arbitration for conclusion, there seems to be no articulated plan as to
how to capture the economic losses an arbitration process will surely provide. John, once again, its the MOU that will have caused these losses not the Arbitration that was negotiated for in the MOU. How soon do you expect a plan to be articulated by the APA? Kirbys letter was dated December 23rd and your BI brief was dated the 24th Did Kirby give you a heads-up? Patience my boy, patienceyoull be able to vote soon enough, or does the MOU take away that right?
John, like we say in the cockpit, no information is better than bad information. Not only was your USAPA Business Intelligence update inappropriate, it was chalked full of bad information and regurgitated doctored charts. Im waiting for more details from my Union before I form my own conclusions on the latest Company offer, but for nowMy Union speaks for me! As I said in the Last Grievance update If each pilot makes his union decisions based on whats best for the group and the profession instead of self-interest, we will succeed.
The next few years will be the best of economic times for this industrythats why Parker doesnt want to share the profits. The APA will have many challenges in dealing with their savior. Like most things in life, they will have to experience it to believe it. There are real opportunities for us to move forward with the profession and the best way to do that is with Unity and one voiceand thats APAs voice!
Thanks for your passion and time, but please use the proper venue to express your thoughts and opinions.
Dave
luvthe9 said:
"…that’s why Parker doesn’t want to share the profits." But!...But!...Umm...Didn't he supposedly want to run "the world's greatest airline?"...And wasn't he coming aboard as a true "savior"?...Sniffle, sob/etc (cue Steve Martin here)..."I'm SO confused!"
"Like most things in life, they will have to experience it to believe it." Apparently...sigh..."Those who fail to learn the lessons of history...."
EastUS1 said:
A great idea Ms Pelosi, but umm...Would you kindly tell us all just exactly what's really "in it" before anyone gets overly excited about having to "pass it" just "to find out", at least this time?...Or is that just too much effort to ever ask?
"Shirley" any and all great cheerleaders for an immediate vote must necessarilly be able to at least describe, point by point, exactly what lasting effects on even days off alone this will have?...Vacation durations and scheduling?... Work days per month versus the current?...Changes in company access to reserve pilots?...How about even reductions in the needed pilot force?...The actually expected changes to W2's, versus single-mindedly focusing on hourly gains alone? Perhaps just even how much this would change the timeline for future section 6 accessibility?...No?....No clue? Does anyone, outside of management that is, honestly even have half a clue?
Curiosity has the best of me at present: Can anyone honestly explain a "minus vote" for the above? Is it even conceivably possible that supposed "pilots" of any kind could be so tragically "simple" as to actually prefer a "life" of cluelessly "living in the dark" while childishly "hoping for the best"? Seriously people; I'm now left just trying to establish some proper parameters for forming a clinically viable "Willful Stupidity Index" study here...?
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
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EastUS1 said:Curiosity has the best of me at present: Can anyone honestly explain a "minus vote" for the above? Is it even conceivably possible that supposed "pilots" of any kind could be so tragically "simple" as to actually prefer a "life" of cluelessly "living in the dark" while childishly "hoping for the best"? Seriously people; I'm now left just trying to establish some proper parameters for forming a clinically viable "Willful Stupidity Index" study here...?
Just the west scabs lurking.
luvthe9 said:
I'd almost added "Inexplicably" to the "Willful Stupidity Index" study notion, but I'd harbored that same thought.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlzpMjT58WY
Perhaps we should just be properly grateful that they've, at least thus far, publicly and proudly presented the profession in "respectable" formal-wear T-shirts, (with the exception of the sometiimes Nazi rat and "Larry Potta" wizard atiire, of course), and not yet fully advanced to the management level of pink wigs and purple tutus.
Phoenix said:
Umm...Dunno' if dat'd wurk well. Da' pink wigs alone would irri-ya-tate eny opposed's ta' "hats" anymore, and anywayz; I'm still reeely hopin' for somethin' far morez eel-E-gantz den' dat'. You'se know?..Sumpthin' really clazzy, and both perfezzionul an' trooly stylishishes an' all.
Apparently, to best celebrate accurately displaying the "New American Airlines" core "fashion" and "uniform" values; we should all just go "Gangnam style"! I mean "dude"; what kud pozzubly be more "wa-ay cool" for ANY group of suppozzeduz perfezzionuls?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wp-xumQCew
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