My feeling is this is a substantial raise. It also is higher than if we just wait a year. Its disingenuous for those that state if we just wait a year we will be made whole. With that said. Its difficult to give up considering the profits of the company
2014 Pilot Discussion
- Thread starter Falcon
- Start date
- Status
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
Pilots comments to the BOD about the Kirby 2 proposal
I want to go to Arbitration
Insulting. Move scope from one area to another and tell us they pulled scope off the table.
Insulting. Pay proposal that doesn't include profit sharing. Insulting. qol issues go unresolved.
THE LARGEST AIRLINE IN THE WORLD AND THEY PUT THIS ACROSS THE TABLE?
This is an insult from the company. Along with the pay there has to be quality of life improvements.
Send this back to them and tell them to come up with a real proposal.
Please reject this proposal and accept no concessions on SCOPE.
Unless there is something behind the curtain to all of this in our "quality of life" then I support this being rejected at the board level.
I hope that you are as insulted as I am. I am ready for arbitration
Clearly, IMO, the BOD will need to flatly reject and counter this slap in the face. No need to involve the membership
Please, no more extensions, no more delays. Proceed with the agreed to cost-neutral Arbitration.
Just say no! Hand them back their sheet of paper and tell them to try again when they truly value our service. The raise is 16 months away and that is fine.
No QOL Improvements = No Vote
Delta Book rates plus 3 compounded...
NO QUID (they already have that... THE AIRLINE)
NO contract DURATION extension
No Extension!
No Give on SCOPE!
No concessions! We already gave - TWICE
NO Middle of the night landings! That is just another Quality of Life give away.
NO NO NO!
Please do NOT send this piece of garbage proposal to a vote
I will vote no on anything that even resembles this POS.
the company offer is not adequate to even consider for a five year contract. Return that piece of paper to the sender.
Please do not negotiate from this insult.
Industry Leading Contract NOW!!
Absolutely not. Go to arbitration
The company's proposal is not only NOT comprehensive, it is NOT "industry leading."
No to Parker.
The "comprehensive non-proposal" from Kirby/Parker is DOA.
What Kirby put on the table is a joke
Not only was the "offer" insulting; the manner in which it was delivered (talking points with little specifics) was disgusting.
We pilots do an A+ job for a company that makes A+ profits. This "proposal" is a D-
A total slap in the face! Pay rates would have to go up another 15% if they refuse profit sharing.
They blew it. Only going to do my job & no one else's. So much for a new day.
Industry lagging W2 with industry lagging work rules and neglected QOL issues is an insult to every pilot here
Please vote no on the company proposal.
It's an insult and I for one would rather wait another year to attain already agreed upon pay rates without all of the give backs
Disgusted. Disrespectful. A class of 5th graders could have came up with a more "comprehensive" proposal!
To be clear - AAs offer is wholly unacceptable.
does not take into account what Delta is really making or going to make with profit sharing
Make an Industry leading counter and put the ball back in their court.
This is at least 20-25% behind Delta. Our best leverage is to terminate all cooperation if we do not receive a Delta contract
Tell them to go to hell, never expect anybody to do more than their job, and we will see you in arbitration.
Hope they like a United/Continental outcome versus a Delta/Northwest!
The membership pilots just got a swift kick in the nuts. I think we are all on the same page going forward that this "offer" is DOA.
Please vote NO and AAG management will have to live with the consequences!
Doug Parker was quoted as saying that we'll get a Delta contract when we make Delta profits. Well, we've exceeded Delta's profits, and virtually all analysts agree that AA will continue to make profits of at least $4 billion per year into the foreseeable future.
"DAL + 3%" is industry lagging even without considering profit sharing. We need to get DAL's "new 2015" pay rates plus profit sharing.
You granted an extension for this proposal! Pathetic! Time to act like a union! Nothing has changed
Ask them if they want a DAL merger or a United operation.
After seeing the pathetic offer by management, I realized this management team is only different in name
You have got to be kidding me?!!!
In light of the totally unacceptable proposal from management, and in light of the staggering profits currently being made by this company, it is clear that the tactics of APA have to change.
No Way!
2015 pay rates below 2001 rates!
No profit sharing!
Please send the management "comprehensive" proposal back to them with a big red NO scribbled on it.
If you chose to negotiate with them again please let them know that the honeymoon is definitely over with the pilots of APA and that they have wasted a golden opportunity to get cooperation and more productivity from the pilots.
falls way short of delta... No thx
The proposal is unacceptable. Please do not send this POS to the membership. The new management is the same as the old. It's obvious they do not require our goodwill, just send it to arbitration and be done with it. Maybe Delta will get a raise? We might be better off....
The company offer is solely inadequate. I am prepared to wait till 2016 for my raise as contractually agreed upon
To sum up……F&%# THEM!!!
The company trumpeted their carefully worded "industry leading pay" (not contract) DAL+3% to make us look like the bad guys when we turn it down.
INSULTING.
In light of the Comprehensive Proposal grab, I am asking the BoDs to NOT vote on the proposal. Just send it back
APA needs to officially make LOS a prerequisite to negotiations.
No Extension and Industry leading Contract. I vote to go to arbitration/cost neutral contract if need be instead of accepting this company proposal
Not even anywhere close to actual "Delta +3%". Send it back. I'll take arbitration.
The Proposal is DOA.
No Arbitration
NO CHANGES TO SCOPE
a LIMITED EXTENSION only IF there is basis for Negotiation
This is a complete NON STARTER!!!!! No mention or movement on any of the critical issue the pilots absolutely REQUIRE!!
Please send this junk back to Parker, don't vote on it and certainly please do not send to us.
Please strongly consider this deal and send it to the members.
We have been played...... You are forgiven.....Now let's get REAL with the Membership about HERE AND NOW!
Spin it any way you want, I have a right to vote. Send it to the membership.
I would rather make less money than give up scope or work rules!
Send the proposal to the membership for a vote.
Not one seat. No amount of $ justifies an increase in scope
Enough is enough! No more extensions. The company has had plenty of time to do the right thing. If we do not have an honest proposal by the deadline, I'm okay with arbitration.
I simply want to add my name to the long list of pilots that ask you to stand firm and insist on an ILC
We need an Industry Leading Contract NOW!
Refuse to counter nor meet with management. (especially this "son of Brundreg" dude). A three word response sends a huge message to all parties: " not good enough".
The 3% a year is not even joke level. We need ISC!!
please turn down this proposal, it is insulting to our profession.
You will need to get much higher pay rates without profit sharing as part of the deal.
Otherwise I see no reason to vote for the "Economic Package"
Please don't even bother voting on the company proposal. Just send it back. It only showed that the company has no respect for us. This proposal looks as if it was thrown together in a meeting that couldn't have taken more than 2 hours. It's a joke.
Put it a paper bag, poop on it, light it on fire and leave on the CP doorstep
Totally lacking any meaningful contract advancements, it was far short of adequately addressing our concerns.
All 8 are not even a consideration for me to compromise. We are the most profitable airline. Please act accordingly
To quote The Who… Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
I want to go to Arbitration
Insulting. Move scope from one area to another and tell us they pulled scope off the table.
Insulting. Pay proposal that doesn't include profit sharing. Insulting. qol issues go unresolved.
THE LARGEST AIRLINE IN THE WORLD AND THEY PUT THIS ACROSS THE TABLE?
This is an insult from the company. Along with the pay there has to be quality of life improvements.
Send this back to them and tell them to come up with a real proposal.
Please reject this proposal and accept no concessions on SCOPE.
Unless there is something behind the curtain to all of this in our "quality of life" then I support this being rejected at the board level.
I hope that you are as insulted as I am. I am ready for arbitration
Clearly, IMO, the BOD will need to flatly reject and counter this slap in the face. No need to involve the membership
Please, no more extensions, no more delays. Proceed with the agreed to cost-neutral Arbitration.
Just say no! Hand them back their sheet of paper and tell them to try again when they truly value our service. The raise is 16 months away and that is fine.
No QOL Improvements = No Vote
Delta Book rates plus 3 compounded...
NO QUID (they already have that... THE AIRLINE)
NO contract DURATION extension
No Extension!
No Give on SCOPE!
No concessions! We already gave - TWICE
NO Middle of the night landings! That is just another Quality of Life give away.
NO NO NO!
Please do NOT send this piece of garbage proposal to a vote
I will vote no on anything that even resembles this POS.
the company offer is not adequate to even consider for a five year contract. Return that piece of paper to the sender.
Please do not negotiate from this insult.
Industry Leading Contract NOW!!
Absolutely not. Go to arbitration
The company's proposal is not only NOT comprehensive, it is NOT "industry leading."
No to Parker.
The "comprehensive non-proposal" from Kirby/Parker is DOA.
What Kirby put on the table is a joke
Not only was the "offer" insulting; the manner in which it was delivered (talking points with little specifics) was disgusting.
We pilots do an A+ job for a company that makes A+ profits. This "proposal" is a D-
A total slap in the face! Pay rates would have to go up another 15% if they refuse profit sharing.
They blew it. Only going to do my job & no one else's. So much for a new day.
Industry lagging W2 with industry lagging work rules and neglected QOL issues is an insult to every pilot here
Please vote no on the company proposal.
It's an insult and I for one would rather wait another year to attain already agreed upon pay rates without all of the give backs
Disgusted. Disrespectful. A class of 5th graders could have came up with a more "comprehensive" proposal!
To be clear - AAs offer is wholly unacceptable.
does not take into account what Delta is really making or going to make with profit sharing
Make an Industry leading counter and put the ball back in their court.
This is at least 20-25% behind Delta. Our best leverage is to terminate all cooperation if we do not receive a Delta contract
Tell them to go to hell, never expect anybody to do more than their job, and we will see you in arbitration.
Hope they like a United/Continental outcome versus a Delta/Northwest!
The membership pilots just got a swift kick in the nuts. I think we are all on the same page going forward that this "offer" is DOA.
Please vote NO and AAG management will have to live with the consequences!
Doug Parker was quoted as saying that we'll get a Delta contract when we make Delta profits. Well, we've exceeded Delta's profits, and virtually all analysts agree that AA will continue to make profits of at least $4 billion per year into the foreseeable future.
"DAL + 3%" is industry lagging even without considering profit sharing. We need to get DAL's "new 2015" pay rates plus profit sharing.
You granted an extension for this proposal! Pathetic! Time to act like a union! Nothing has changed
Ask them if they want a DAL merger or a United operation.
After seeing the pathetic offer by management, I realized this management team is only different in name
You have got to be kidding me?!!!
In light of the totally unacceptable proposal from management, and in light of the staggering profits currently being made by this company, it is clear that the tactics of APA have to change.
No Way!
2015 pay rates below 2001 rates!
No profit sharing!
Please send the management "comprehensive" proposal back to them with a big red NO scribbled on it.
If you chose to negotiate with them again please let them know that the honeymoon is definitely over with the pilots of APA and that they have wasted a golden opportunity to get cooperation and more productivity from the pilots.
falls way short of delta... No thx
The proposal is unacceptable. Please do not send this POS to the membership. The new management is the same as the old. It's obvious they do not require our goodwill, just send it to arbitration and be done with it. Maybe Delta will get a raise? We might be better off....
The company offer is solely inadequate. I am prepared to wait till 2016 for my raise as contractually agreed upon
To sum up……F&%# THEM!!!
The company trumpeted their carefully worded "industry leading pay" (not contract) DAL+3% to make us look like the bad guys when we turn it down.
INSULTING.
In light of the Comprehensive Proposal grab, I am asking the BoDs to NOT vote on the proposal. Just send it back
APA needs to officially make LOS a prerequisite to negotiations.
No Extension and Industry leading Contract. I vote to go to arbitration/cost neutral contract if need be instead of accepting this company proposal
Not even anywhere close to actual "Delta +3%". Send it back. I'll take arbitration.
The Proposal is DOA.
No Arbitration
NO CHANGES TO SCOPE
a LIMITED EXTENSION only IF there is basis for Negotiation
This is a complete NON STARTER!!!!! No mention or movement on any of the critical issue the pilots absolutely REQUIRE!!
Please send this junk back to Parker, don't vote on it and certainly please do not send to us.
Please strongly consider this deal and send it to the members.
We have been played...... You are forgiven.....Now let's get REAL with the Membership about HERE AND NOW!
Spin it any way you want, I have a right to vote. Send it to the membership.
I would rather make less money than give up scope or work rules!
Send the proposal to the membership for a vote.
Not one seat. No amount of $ justifies an increase in scope
Enough is enough! No more extensions. The company has had plenty of time to do the right thing. If we do not have an honest proposal by the deadline, I'm okay with arbitration.
I simply want to add my name to the long list of pilots that ask you to stand firm and insist on an ILC
We need an Industry Leading Contract NOW!
Refuse to counter nor meet with management. (especially this "son of Brundreg" dude). A three word response sends a huge message to all parties: " not good enough".
The 3% a year is not even joke level. We need ISC!!
please turn down this proposal, it is insulting to our profession.
You will need to get much higher pay rates without profit sharing as part of the deal.
Otherwise I see no reason to vote for the "Economic Package"
Please don't even bother voting on the company proposal. Just send it back. It only showed that the company has no respect for us. This proposal looks as if it was thrown together in a meeting that couldn't have taken more than 2 hours. It's a joke.
Put it a paper bag, poop on it, light it on fire and leave on the CP doorstep
Totally lacking any meaningful contract advancements, it was far short of adequately addressing our concerns.
All 8 are not even a consideration for me to compromise. We are the most profitable airline. Please act accordingly
To quote The Who… Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
- 3,358
- 2,319
Where did you get those? Are you on the BOD?
Have a week of vacation? Plan on only a week off. None of these trip touching maneuvers to get 2 weeks off. PBS puts your vacation in your line first then builds trips around it, same with training. We haven't even seen the full effects of the last cram down. But don't worry, the west pilots Luv it.
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
AWE Dog said:
I see, you think Reserves are there for you to dump on.
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
- 3,358
- 2,319
You said these came from the BOD. I'll ask again...how did you get them? Are these representitive of all the messages to the BOD? Are you on the BOD or is one of them feeding out information?luvthe9 said:
nevergiveup
Veteran
- Nov 30, 2010
- 2,125
- 2,148
- May 8, 2007
- 3,146
- 3,236
It said "these are comments to the board" not from the board. He probably got them of that c&r APA board.A320 Driver said:
nevergiveup said:
Exactly. If I look at this mess purely from an "it's ALL about meee!" perspective; it'd be in my best interest to see a few more nickels asap and the work-rules and future be be damned, but for those with many years yet to go, well, I can only see accepting yet another company low-balling, especially at a time of not only record but even obscene profits as nothing short of incredibly stupid. The very idea of even willingly considering, much less accepting ANY concessions under the current conditions seems nothing short of insane to me. For that reason, I can't possibly vote in favor of doing so, but that's just my thinking. A year passes like nuthin', but all with years to go will feel the effects of anything now surrendered for a very, very long time. I strongly suggest that everyone consider that last at length, but each person must decide for themselves just what they really think they're worth, and what's acceptable to them per days off/working conditions/a mere year early (and limited) raises of sorts/etc. Reasonably figure that anything you vote to surrender now, versus what might well be otherwise gained through just a bit of patience, you will live with for a very long time.
At the very least; all concerned should both expect and demand detailed specifics and not some generalized company BS before voting on anything. Wasn't the infamous LOA93 at least intended to provide pay restoration in better times, or even just a measly 3% return? How well did that work out? What's the company's proven track record with contractual grievances? WHY are there even all those hundreds of grievances in the first place? If you had misguidedly given this management a new bat for Christmas, it wouldn't have ever been used to play ball with you, but would've already been stuffed sideways up into an unpleasant location by now.
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